Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Right now I'm reading the Radin book. And I'm now more confused then ever. I'm still just a freshman on all of this Lizzie stuff so, before I get too lost can I just ask where everyone stands on some of these Lizzie stories? In other words which ones do we agree on, which do we still dicker over and which ones are just flat out phooey? Here's just a few of the ones I've heard:


1. The Tilden-Thurber shop lifting story. I know there was a newspaper story saying she had been accused of shop lifting but was there any proof she really did shop lift there? Radin makes it sound like maybe either she just paid for the item later or the store may have made a mistake. Do we all agree the alleged confession was fake?

2. The "I dreamed about you...." letter. Ok, is the letter a fake? Are we still dickering over whether Lizzie wrote it to a woman or a man?


3. The story ( and I think this one is phooey) that says Lizzie read that one of her school chums died and so she called up the woman's daughter and asked if there was anything she could do to help. Well, the daughter says, sure I have to do a few errands so, could you stay with the body. Lizzie goes over, stays with the body, and later the daughter returns. After Lizzie leaves, the daughter notices somethings not quite right with Mom. So, she checks the body and she finds out her mother's underwear is gone. What do you think? I know Lizzie liked to swipe jewelry but I can't see her taking off with some woman's underwear.

4. The cat stories. Did she really kill Abby's cat or is that story still in the dicker stage? How about the one of her picking up the cat and flinging it?

5. The egg story. First off, I don't even know this whole story. I first heard about it over on the Lizzieandrewborden.com site and later I found a post that went into more detail about it. So, do you really think Lizzie bet Hannah Reagan she could break an egg? If that is the "egg thing." I'm still not clear on that story.


6. Did Lizzie go to the Chicago Fair? Agree or dicker?

7. David Anthony. Anyone really think this guy was her boyfriend?

8 Nance O'Neil, what's your pick: . Friend? Lover? Mooch?

9. Did Lizzie really send Moody a package after the trial with photos and clippings or is this a phooey story?

10. The photo of Sarah Borden and the child in her lap. Is there a general agreement that it's Emma or do some think it may either be Alice or even Lizzie? I was under the impression it was Emma until I read posts saying it might not be.

11. Did Lizzie really write a letter to a friend saying she was going to buy an ax so they wouldn't freeze?

12. Engaged to the teacher story. Ok, so a story appears in the paper saying Lizzie is going to marry a teacher. Does't happen. Did the press screw up again? Or do some of you think there might have been some truth in the story? Why would the guy run off simply because of a story in the paper? Anyone think Lizzie may have planted the story? Or is this another phooey story?

Good questions.
Am looking forward to the answers.

There are more to ask. How about this one:

Who believes the story, which I think came from Lincoln, about the workers going to Maplecroft and I guess they did something wrong on building the porch and Lizzie started yelling at them. Anyone recall that one? I always doubt stories where there are no names given.


I found this "story" in the New York Times dated June 14, 1893. I don't believe it and I think it falls into the phooey group but, it has a great urban legend way about it. I'm going by my memory so I hope I got this story right:


A guy looking rather scraggly goes into a barbershop and tells the barber to give him a haircut and a shave. The barber does it. Now the guy is clean shaven and looks different. The guy asks the barber, "Do you recognize me from when I first came in?" Of course the barber doesn't since now the guy is all cleaned up. The guy leaves but just before he does he hands the barber a note which reads:

I am the murderer of Mr and Mrs. Borden, and I did it for revenge, for they wronged me and mine. You can never reach me.

Well, it would be a lot easier to deal with all these Borden myths (mixed with a few accounts that might be true) if they were presented one at a time. That's been done previously in the case of most of them. Incidentally, I'm not aware of any true stories about Lizzie's having stolen jewelry. Are you referring to the stuff that was missing from Abby's desk? In that case, we don't know that Lizzie was the thief, although it appears she might have been. (The porcelain plaques that went missing from Tilden-Thurber probably weren't "jewelry." The newspapers of the time described them as "pictures" or "paintings.") I don't accept much of anything about the Borden case as a settled fact except those things that come from official records or are covered in depth in the various legal proceedings. Even some of those might be subject to question, because some of the witnesses had their own axes to grind (so to speak). Most of the stories cited here are in the realm of myth. Radin's book is one of those that I'd describe as a "novelized" version of the Borden story. In fact, any book that comes up with a solution to the crime falls into that category, because it's still an unsolved crime! Porter's book, David Kent's "Forty Whacks," and Rebello's book (which isn't an account of the crimes, per se) aren't novelized, altough they may include misinformation.

I always ask myself "What's the source for this story?" If the source is unknown, I usually discount the story. If the source is a newspaper, I may question it, because many, many errors appeared in the newspapers during the time of the murders and trial. There's more than one story about Lizzie's cruelty to cats; however, her will (an official document) reflects the fact that she was concerned about animal welfare, and her contemporaries reported trhat she had pets. The pets, in fact, were buried in a pet cemetery, where their graves can still be visited. I don't know that Lizzie specifically cared about cats, because her pets were dogs; however, she didn't differentiate in her will. It reads: "I have been fond of animals and their need is great and there are so few who care for them." Incidentally, I don't believe that the pigeons in the Borden barn were Lizzie's pets, because there's no reliable information backing that up. It appears to be chiefly a plot device from the 1975 "Legend" movie.

The story of Lizzie and the underwear is in DeMille's Dance of Death, p85. Personally I think it's pure hogwash. Even DeMille says it's at least third hand:

"The most extraordinary was recounted to me by Edward Sheldon, who had it from Mrs. Otis Skinner; whom she had it from is not known. When Lizzie was living in her new home and maintaining what friendships were possible under her new circumstances, she read of the death of a schoolmate and immediately and considerately got in touch with the bereaved daughter and asked if there was anything she could do. Yes, it seems, there was. Apparently the daughter was without household help and wished to go shopping for some black things as the funeral was to be the next day. Would Miss Lizzie be kind enough to sit with the body? This request seemed perfectly congenial to Lizzie and she hurried over. The daughter shopped, returned to find all quiet in the death chamber, thanked Miss Lizzie and showed her out. Something, almost nothing, but some little disarray about the corpse prompted investigation. The daughter had laid out Mama in her very best hand-sewn, lace-bordered underwear. The corpse was now, after Miss Lizzie's departure, quite naked under the outer garments."

I can understand kleptomania and taking things that are out in the open and easy to take, but, would someone ever go through that much trouble to get underwear off a corpse? Lizzie could afford to have all the finest, handmade lace trimmed underwear that she wanted that was fitted specifically for her, I can't believe she would have done that.

2. The "I dreamed about you...." letter. Ok, is the letter a fake? Are we still dickering over whether Lizzie wrote it to a woman or a man?

--DWilly

The position of the FRHS is that, since they have the envelope, they know to whom the letter was written. It was to the dressmaker, Mrs. Cummings.
That doesn't mean Lizzie didn't have a crush on her dressmaker to write something which sounds provacative: But I was thinking about all the annual anniversary news items locally on the crimes, and how things Lizzie did made the news, and so I tend to think that when she writes that she dare not put her dream on paper, she's thinking of the future- and the letter falling into the wrong hands- like Spiering perhaps? Can you imagine if you wrote down your dream you had of a friend, and you're infamous, and in this day and age it got sold to The Enquirer and they printed it and skewed it a bit? Yikes! I just think Lizzie was being careful. Also in her other letter she alludes to her unique position- the engagement announcement apology letter. I think she purposely brings up her victimhood in these letters to remind friends what it is still like to be her. I don't blame her, either.

Harry @ Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:06 pm wrote:The story of Lizzie and the underwear is in DeMille's Dance of Death, p85. Personally I think it's pure hogwash. Even DeMille says it's at least third hand:

"The most extraordinary was recounted to me by Edward Sheldon, who had it from Mrs. Otis Skinner; whom she had it from is not known. When Lizzie was living in her new home and maintaining what friendships were possible under her new circumstances, she read of the death of a schoolmate and immediately and considerately got in touch with the bereaved daughter and asked if there was anything she could do. Yes, it seems, there was. Apparently the daughter was without household help and wished to go shopping for some black things as the funeral was to be the next day. Would Miss Lizzie be kind enough to sit with the body? This request seemed perfectly congenial to Lizzie and she hurried over. The daughter shopped, returned to find all quiet in the death chamber, thanked Miss Lizzie and showed her out. Something, almost nothing, but some little disarray about the corpse prompted investigation. The daughter had laid out Mama in her very best hand-sewn, lace-bordered underwear. The corpse was now, after Miss Lizzie's departure, quite naked under the outer garments."

To me this story was hands down one of the most off the wall. I think it shows just how much gossip and crazy stories where floating around about Lizzie.

Kat @ Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:12 am wrote:

2. The "I dreamed about you...." letter. Ok, is the letter a fake? Are we still dickering over whether Lizzie wrote it to a woman or a man?

--DWilly

The position of the FRHS is that, since they have the envelope, they know to whom the letter was written. It was to the dressmaker, Mrs. Cummings.
That doesn't mean Lizzie didn't have a crush on her dressmaker to write something which sounds provacative: But I was thinking about all the annual anniversary news items locally on the crimes, and how things Lizzie did made the news, and so I tend to think that when she writes that she dare not put her dream on paper, she's thinking of the future- and the letter falling into the wrong hands- like Spiering perhaps? Can you imagine if you wrote down your dream you had of a friend, and you're infamous, and in this day and age it got sold to The Enquirer and they printed it and skewed it a bit? Yikes! I just think Lizzie was being careful. Also in her other letter she alludes to her unique position- the engagement announcement apology letter. I think she purposely brings up her victimhood in these letters to remind friends what it is still like to be her. I don't blame her, either.

Ok, now I'm really confused I was going through the archives and I came across some old posts and in those posts it was brought up whether it was written to a woman or a man. Not only that I could have sworn it was said that David Kent had felt it was a man too. So, how come everyone was mixed up? I noticed in Radin he doesn't say it's to the dressmaker. Didn't the FRHS tell anyone?

You'll have to ask them about that. Radin, Spiering, Kent are before my time.
I know it's been discussed between our Sherry and the FRHS and between me and the FRHS, and between Sherry and me. The answer now is that it was written to the dressmaker.
There's not much more I can say.

"I know Lizzie liked to swipe jewelry but I can't see her taking off with some woman's underwear."--Dwilly

Do you know Lizzie swiped jewelry- or is she alleged to have shoplifted?
............
"8 Nance O'Neil, what's your pick: . Friend? Lover? Mooch?"--Dwilly

I was just thinking about Lizzie's will. She could have left money to Nance but she didn't. She either was no longer friends with her later in life, or she thought it wouldn't look right?
..............
"9. Did Lizzie really send Moody a package after the trial with photos and clippings or is this a phooey story?"--Dwilly

In The Pearson-Knowlton correspondence, Knowlton JR tells Pearson he doubts this story very much because he would have known about it. He says Moody was a friend of his family and he was also suspicious of the source, which apparently was a female in *the Lodge line* who was not believable. See LBQ series on the correspondence.

1) The shop lifting thing. She was known around town for shoplifting (so everything I have ever read or heard), but I think daddy warbucks always paid for the stuff so she wouldn't have to go thru a trial. You know embrass the family.

3) I never heard that one before about one of her school chums dying. Didn't she quit school at 16 anyway>

8) Nance O'Neill I think they were lovers.

10) The photo of Sarah and child is Alice I believe or so I have always heard.

12) I think the whole story of being engaged to a teacher is just that a story.

Kat @ Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:39 am wrote:"I know Lizzie liked to swipe jewelry but I can't see her taking off with some woman's underwear."--Dwilly

Do you know Lizzie swiped jewelry- or is she alleged to have shoplifted?
............
"8 Nance O'Neil, what's your pick: . Friend? Lover? Mooch?"--Dwilly

I was just thinking about Lizzie's will. She could have left money to Nance but she didn't. She either was no longer friends with her later in life, or she thought it wouldn't look right?
..............
"9. Did Lizzie really send Moody a package after the trial with photos and clippings or is this a phooey story?"--Dwilly

In The Pearson-Knowlton correspondence, Knowlton JR tells Pearson he doubts this story very much because he would have known about it. He says Moody was a friend of his family and he was also suspicious of the source, which apparently was a female in *the Lodge line* who was not believable. See LBQ series on the correspondence.

When I first started reading about Lizzie I thought the stories of her shop lifting were true. Now I'm not so sure. On page 500, of Rebello there's a little piece on Mrs. Ellis Gifford who was the Fall River Historical Society curator. In that she talks about how her husband owned the Gifford's Jewelry Store. She claims her husband use to watch Lizzie "very carefully" when she was in his store. She claims Lizzie was a kleptomaniac. Now that's her claim but it's not backed up by anything. It's clear to me Mrs. Gifford didn't like Lizzie. On page 485, of Rebello she's quoted as saying this about Lizzie, "I wish that girl had never been born." So, with that in mind it's tough to say whether Lizzie really did steal or this is a case of someone who didn't like her making up stories. She never said her husband caught Lizzie stealing.


As for Nance. Well, clearly they were friends. Papers at the time wrote about the two of them. Nance herself spoke of knowing Lizzie. On page, 321 Rebello, in her June 5, 1927 interview, given shortly after Lizzie's death, Nance talks about having invited Lizzie to her home in Tyngsboro. On page 309, there's a piece on Edmund Pearson writing to Hosea Knowlton where Pearson talks about talking to Helen Leighton, a friend of Lizzie's, and how she talked about Lizzie not only being at Nance's home but also paying for a party that was held there. On page 309, Emma in an interview done in 1913 is quoted as saying, "Nance O'Neil has for many years been a close friend of Lizzie, and she holds that relation to this day."

Now how long they were friends I don't know. And whether they were lovers or not I don't know. No one knows for sure whether Lizzie was a lesbian or not. We can only speculate. I think she was but that's just an opinion. Just like some people think she was straight. They also have no proof. They only have their opinion.

As for the mooch part. Well, yeah I think old Nance took some money from Lizzie. How she paid her back I don't know

snokkums @ Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:30 am wrote: 12) I think the whole story of being engaged to a teacher is just that a story.

I do too and so did Lizzie. In Radin on page 238, there's a letter written by Lizzie shortly after the newspaper story appeared. In that Lizzie writes about a, "false and silly story that has been about a week." It appears she's referring to the engagement story.

I also, think the David Anthony story is fake. Doesn't make any sense and isn't backed up by anything other than a woman who claims it happened but from what I've read so far didn't back it up with much if anything. When the press at that time was checking Lizzie out they didn't find any boyfriend I was looking through some old posts and came across one that quoted a Ruth Waring. I'm not quite sure who she was the post said she was "related by marriage to Jenning's son-in-law. Anyway, in talking about Anthony she said, " I never heard anyone speak of any association with Lizzie Borden" It's rather interesting that we can find where Helen Leighton, a very close friend of Lizzie, talks about Nance O'Neil but not a word on this David Anthony.

Those are all good points, DWilly.
Good sourcing too.

I didn't mean to imply that Nance and Lizzie were never friends, tho- just speculating on why Lizzie left her no money since Nance probably could have used it. *No longer friends*, is weird to me. I was wondering if Lizzie cared too much of what people thought of her after death? To not leave money to an actress, you know?
It's been mentioned to me that the Borden girls (Or Lizzie) had some *guidance* as to how they left their money.
It sounded like they still cared what Fall River thought.

BTW: Peason's correspondence was with Frank Knowlton, not Hosea, as you probably know.

I wrote about that Interview with Emma which took place in 1913, for The Hatchet, Vol 2, Issue 4, where I do question how much Emma knows of Lizbeth's activities since we've been told over and over that the sisters never spoke again after Emma left....
I guess someone kept them apprised of each other's doings...

DWilly,
Ruth Waring was the daughter of Harold H. Anthony, the brother of David M. Anthony, Jr. She called him "Uncle Davey" and thought he was wonderful. Harold was the one who took over the management of the Anthony and Swift Meat company.
Both Anthony boys were the sons of David Mason Anthony, Sr who was in partnership with Gustavus Swift.

Gramma

radin refers to a mrs waring, who was the daughter of jennings -- in the context of the hip-bath collection coming to light.

gramma, is your ruth waring someone else?

There was a Dwight Waring and an Ellis Waring.
I believe they were cousins.
One sat on the gate out front the Borden house that Thursday, as a child, according to lore, after the crowd gathered.
OK here is a note about Ellis I just found:

"Mr Ellis Waring, of Swansea, has two links to the Borden story. His cousin Dwight Waring, married Defense Attorney Jenning's daughter, and as a child, Ellis Waring played in the garden at Maplecroft."--Case Book, Williams, et. al., pg. 262.

Also:
"Mrs. Ellis A. (Ruth) Waring, related by marriage to Defense Attorney Jennings and a resident of Swansea, where Andrew Borden owned property."--pg. 263

Ruth, daughter of Harold Anthony, was married to Ellis Waring, and his cousin Dwight was married to Jenning's daughter.

Haulover--there are 2 Mrs. Warings.

1. Harold Horton Anthony b. 11/28/1876 m. Caroline Goodwin Cook in 1898. They had a daughter, Ruth m. Ellis Waring.

2. Jennings had a daughter, Marion, who married a Waring (I personally am unsure of first name) who had at least 2 sons, one of whom is named Dwight Waring who commented on the Hip Bath Collection and the other named Edward Waring (see Rebello, p. 541).

Kat, Gramma--I'm coming up blank in the archives.

Are Mr. Ellis Waring and the Mr. Waring who married Marion Jennings related? For some reason, I thought they were and were therefore biased on the subject of David Anthony as well. Was Marion's husband named Dwight, as well as the son? Ellis Waring is supposed to be cousins with Marion Jennings' husband, correct?

I was trying to EDIT my post to explain the relationship but we crossed paths posting!

There was a Dwight Waring and an Ellis Waring.
I believe they were cousins.
One sat on the gate out front the Borden house that Thursday, as a child, according to lore, after the crowd gathered.
OK here is a note about Ellis I just found:

"Mr Ellis Waring, of Swansea, has two links to the Borden story. His cousin Dwight Waring, married Defense Attorney Jenning's daughter, and as a child, Ellis Waring played in the garden at Maplecroft."--Case Book, Williams, et. al., pg. 262.

Also:
"Mrs. Ellis A. (Ruth) Waring, related by marriage to Defense Attorney Jennings and a resident of Swansea, where Andrew Borden owned property."--pg. 263

I'll try again-
Edit here:
Ruth, daughter of Harold Anthony, was married to Ellis Waring, and his cousin Dwight was married to Jenning's daughter.

Thank you all for explaining who Ruth Waring was. I'm beginning to think everyone in all of Fall Rivers is related. Forget about Kevin Bacon, let's play the six degrees of separation Lizzie game!

Anyway, my main point was people who were close to Lizzie never said anything about her being romantically involved with David Anthony and at least one person who knew David makes it clear she never heard a word about Lizzie and David being together either.

When Ruth heard the story about David, her uncle, she was horror stricken! She and Mrs. Brigham asked Joyce Williams (of Case Book fame) to go meet Ruby and assess the story. I interviewed Dr. Williams about the circumstances to do with Ruby's story when they met in Maine.

See The Hatchet issue, Oct/Nov, 2004, Vol 1, Issue 5. There were several articles on the David Anthony story in that issue, including by our Diana and our Joe.

Edit here: I should add that Ruth heard the story in 1985, in the newspaper.

The Jenning's collection was donated to the FRHS in 1968, ( Proceedings, page 211).

Good Idea DWilly. I can connect Lizzie Borden to Kevin Bacon....HERE GOES....

Lizzie Borden was Friends with:

Nance O'Neil who starred in the movie Okay, America with:
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0023291/

Maureen O' Sullivan who starred in the movie The Devil Doll with:
http://ofcs.rottentomatoes.com/movie-10 ... eviews.php

Lionel Barrymore who is the great uncle of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Barrymore

Drew Barrymore who starred in the movie Charlie's Angels Full Throttle with:

Demi Moore who starred in the movie A Few Good Men With..you guessed it:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0305357/

KEVIN BACON. Whew...I need a nap now
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104257/

I've always found it curious (like how everyone is related) that Ruby Cameron was living in Cherryfield, ME, when she introduced the David Anthony story. Helen Leighton's family was from Cherryfield, ME. And some members of the Morse family lived in Cherryfield, ME (and I believe they were from the same line as Uncle John).

There seemed to be more going on in the Blueberry Capitol of World than we are aware. It's a very small place, even now.

http://www.cherryfieldmaine.com/index.shtml
http://www.cherryfield.us/

Kat--I know you and Stef visited Cherryfield. Did you ever get to go through the Registry of Deeds for that area and time. I would be very curious to know more about the families there. It would seem that everyone must have known everyone else. I know you talked about visiting the Historic Society.

DWilly--you aren't by any change really a Willey? Ichabod Willey was one of the earliest settlers of Cherryfield.

I've never been to Maine in my life- sorry.

The Morse's I've studied with Joe were not from Maine, either. Could it be "Shaw" from Portland, Maine, you're thinking of?

We did visit an Historical Society in New England this last trip.

Good job, Missy!

Kat @ Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:16 am wrote:When Ruth heard the story about David, her uncle, she was horror stricken!

Why wouldn't she be? Think about it. Here you have an unsubstantiated story that is completely illogical and it makes her Uncle out to be a monster. Which is what he would have had to have been if this story were true. According to Ruby, David Anthony brutally murdered two innocent people than like a coward left Lizzie holding the bag. If this fantasy/horror story were true (which I don't think it is) than that would mean David destroyed the lives of four people...Abby, Andrew, Emma and Lizzie.

nbcatlover @ Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:34 am wrote: DWilly--you aren't by any change really a Willey? Ichabod Willey was one of the earliest settlers of Cherryfield.

No. Never even heard of them. I wouldn't mind visiting Maine though.

Allen @ Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:31 am wrote:Good Idea DWilly. I can connect Lizzie Borden to Kevin Bacon....HERE GOES....

Lizzie Borden was Friends with:

Nance O'Neil who starred in the movie Okay, America with:
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0023291/

Maureen O' Sullivan who starred in the movie The Devil Doll with:
http://ofcs.rottentomatoes.com/movie-10 ... eviews.php

Lionel Barrymore who is the great uncle of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Barrymore

Drew Barrymore who starred in the movie Charlie's Angels Full Throttle with:

Demi Moore who starred in the movie A Few Good Men With..you guessed it:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0305357/

KEVIN BACON. Whew...I need a nap now
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104257/

I am impressed. I bet there's even more out there. I think Ricca Allen, another one of Lizzie's actress pals, did a movie with Glenn Ford. I bet we could get that to Kevin Bacon.

Kat--I thought it was the one in Cherryfield with the farm tools...

nbcatlover @ Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:34 am wrote:I've always found it curious (like how everyone is related) that Ruby Cameron was living in Cherryfield, ME, when she introduced the David Anthony story. Helen Leighton's family was from Cherryfield, ME. And some members of the Morse family lived in Cherryfield, ME (and I believe they were from the same line as Uncle John).

WOW! I didn't know about Helen Leighton's family being from Cherryfield!!! I do know that Morse is an abudant name in eastern Maine and whether any have ties to Uncle John is mere speculation at this point. It would take some in depth genealogy to find the connection if one exists.
I know there is a Leighton's Point around Milbridge, I think.. Wonder if that was Helen Leighton's family. There are quite a few Leighton's up there, too.

I always felt bad about Mrs Waring finding out in the newspaper. it would be understandable she would adore her Uncle David. He was bright and exciting. Obviously, there were very few who knew of his tie to the Lizzie story. Any trace of a connection to Lizzie would have been obliterated. I have often thought it was his visiting, not Nance's, that drove Emma out.

Gramma

It's Philip Shaw who married Selecta Morse who came from Portland, Maine. Not Cherryfield. They married in Girard, Ill. tho, 1866.

Gramma @ Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:45 am wrote:

nbcatlover @ Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:34 am wrote: Obviously, there were very few who knew of his tie to the Lizzie story. Any trace of a connection to Lizzie would have been obliterated. I have often thought it was his visiting, not Nance's, that drove Emma out.

Gramma

As is typical of those who continue to press the David Anthony story both these statements are unsupported by evidence. How convenient to simply state that "Any trace of a connection to Lizzie would have been obliterated." I guess that helps in avoiding the messy process of actually backing this story up.

DWilly @ Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:54 am wrote: As is typical of those who continue to press the David Anthony story both these statements are unsupported by evidence. How convenient to simply state that "Any trace of a connection to Lizzie would have been obliterated." I guess that helps in avoiding the messy process of actually backing this story up.

It is those with your mindset who protected and continue to protect David's anonimity.

The Boston Globe was forced to retract, in my humble, modest opinion, not so much that Trickey changed names but the fact it hinted at not only a boyfriend but also a pregnancy.
Porter's book also, by telling about the Globe and other hints, was restricted in its readership by being bought up and taken out of the marketplace.

It has only been recently that talk about such things has been allowed to circulate and probably only because it has been so long and with the internet it is difficult to suppress it except by by those expressing views such as yours.
Of course there is no hard evidence! If there was he would have been caught!
I have only one thing to say..........You did not know Ruby.......I did.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING to one and all!
Gramma

I also think it is hard to believe that if there was a boyfriend there wouldn't have been some evidence. Lizzie did have neighbors. She did have family members hinting at far worse things than a boyfriend to the newspapers, such as an incestuous relationship with uncle John.

I'm sure the neighbors watched the house for comings and goings. Eeryone sure knew of Nance coming and going. In a town where many believed her to be a murderer and scrutinized everything she did for the rest of her life, I think it would've been hard to hide anything. Also,why would anyone want to hide it? How could the Globe be forced to retract it?
And if David Anthony loved Lizzie enough to kill her parents, how could he leave her to take the fall for it?

Gramma @ Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:51 pm wrote:

DWilly @ Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:54 am wrote: As is typical of those who continue to press the David Anthony story both these statements are unsupported by evidence. How convenient to simply state that "Any trace of a connection to Lizzie would have been obliterated." I guess that helps in avoiding the messy process of actually backing this story up.

It is those with your mindset who protected and continue to protect David's anonimity.

The Boston Globe was forced to retract, in my humble, modest opinion, not so much that Trickey changed names but the fact it hinted at not only a boyfriend but also a pregnancy.
Porter's book also, by telling about the Globe and other hints, was restricted in its readership by being bought up and taken out of the marketplace.

It has only been recently that talk about such things has been allowed to circulate and probably only because it has been so long and with the internet it is difficult to suppress it except by by those expressing views such as yours.
Of course there is no hard evidence! If there was he would have been caught!
I have only one thing to say..........You did not know Ruby.......I did.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING to one and all!
Gramma

Ok, let's go down the line:

David Anthony came from a good family. He came from a family that had money. According to Ruth Waring David like to play the violin and was a "very religious man."

Question: Why then wouldn't Andrew allow David to marry Lizzie? Why wouldn't Abby help Lizzie out? I think Abby would have been thrilled if Lizzie got married and moved out.


Question: How is it that not a one of Lizzie's friends ever mentioned David? The press looked long and hard and came up with nothing. From what I understand courting was a fairly formal affair. Had to meet the parents. Many meetings in the parlor etc. And yet, no one recalls David being there. Lizzie never mentioned him to Alice? Never said anything to the Rev. Buck or Rev. Jubb? Lizzie never asked any of them what they thought?

Question: What kind of a man murders two innocent people then leaves the woman he loves to take the rap? I would say a monster. What say you?


Question: How could Lizzie be pregnant if she was on her period just a few days prior to the murder? If I'm not mistaken, even Ruby didn't claim Lizzie was pregnant.

Question: Why didn't David ever marry Lizzie?


Question: About the Porter books. What proof do you have that its readership was restricted or taken off the market?

Question: So, all of these people are "in on it" ? The press, Lizzie, Ruby's parents, the witnesses etc. They're all in on "it" and no one talked. And of course the only person Lizzie told was Ruby who she hardly knew. If I'm not mistaken in the archives it was posted that Ruby only knew Lizzie about a week? Is that true?



Question: What makes you think anyone should simply take Ruby's word without asking questions or proof? No offense but frankly I don't care if you knew her you still have to prove the story.

Final question: If I'm not mistaken I read a post, might have been Kat, where it said that one of Ruby's education claims wasn't accurate? Is that true?

"Ok, let's go down the line:"

"David Anthony came from a good family. He came from a family that had money. According to Ruth Waring David like to play the violin and was a "very religious man."

"Question: Why then wouldn't Andrew allow David to marry Lizzie? Why wouldn't Abby help Lizzie out? I think Abby would have been thrilled if Lizzie got married and moved out."

A: David was the meatman's son who came through the neighborhood with the meatwagon. There are those who called him a wild and carefree young man.



"Question: How is it that not a one of Lizzie's friends ever mentioned David? The press looked long and hard and came up with nothing. From what I understand courting was a fairly formal affair. Had to meet the parents. Many meetings in the parlor etc. And yet, no one recalls David being there. Lizzie never mentioned him to Alice? Never said anything to the Rev. Buck or Rev. Jubb? Lizzie never asked any of them what they thought?"

A: They were meeting on the sly because of the dispproval.

"Question: What kind of a man murders two innocent people then leaves the woman he loves to take the rap? I would say a monster. What say you?"

A: YES!!! But he was a smooth talker.


"Question: How could Lizzie be pregnant if she was on her period just a few days prior to the murder? If I'm not mistaken, even Ruby didn't claim Lizzie was pregnant."

A: Was it her period? Or was it the aftermath of a procedure?
You are right, Ruby never claimed that. She may never have known.


"Question: Why didn't David ever marry Lizzie?"

A: He wanted to but she refused.


"Question: About the Porter books. What proof do you have that its readership was restricted or taken off the market?"

A: Where are all the other copies?

"Question: So, all of these people are "in on it" ? The press, Lizzie, Ruby's parents, the witnesses etc. They're all in on "it" and no one talked. And of course the only person Lizzie told was Ruby who she hardly knew. If I'm not mistaken in the archives it was posted that Ruby only knew Lizzie about a week? Is that true?"

A: The reporters of the press were in on nothing. The management controlled what got out.

Lizzie was "in on it" but did not commit the acts herself. I believe she was only in on it after Abby's demise.

Ruby's parents were in on it to protect the Anthonys.

Some witnesses, not all, were in on it.

Lizzie knew Ruby as the little girl who sat and waited in her kitchen while David visited. Later Ruby took care of her as her nurse for a week or so. Lizzie knew Ruby's parents as employees of the Anthonys.




"Question: What makes you think anyone should simply take Ruby's word without asking questions or proof? No offense but frankly I don't care if you knew her you still have to prove the story."

A: No offense, frankly, but I don't care if you don't believe me. I don't have to prove anything. If it could have been proven the case would have been solved decades ago.


"Final question: If I'm not mistaken I read a post, might have been Kat, where it said that one of Ruby's education claims wasn't accurate? Is that true?"

A: There was someone questioning her credentials. I saw her graduation certificates and her graduation photo from nursing school. I heard her classroom stories from when she was in school.

Gramma

Kat--I wasn't referring to Philip Shaw.

I went back to the Morse Society forum. The Morses in Cherryfield were in the Samuel line. While Samuel and Anthony are both progenitors of the Morses in America, I am not sure if/how they are related. I know William Morse was Anthony's brother.

As one of the poster's noted:

I have a great deal of information on the Morse family in Cherryfield.

I wonder how far back their presence in Cherryfield goes?

One name mentioned was Merrill Morse, son of William Adford Morse (m. Mary Elizabeth Dorr).

There was also a query about an Earnest Morse (m. Velma E. Grant) and whether he was also from Cherryfield.

If the Samuel line is not closely related to the Anthony line, the Cherryfield connection just becomes another curious coincidence.

Gramma @ Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:39 pm wrote:

"Question: How is it that not a one of Lizzie's friends ever mentioned David? The press looked long and hard and came up with nothing. From what I understand courting was a fairly formal affair. Had to meet the parents. Many meetings in the parlor etc. And yet, no one recalls David being there. Lizzie never mentioned him to Alice? Never said anything to the Rev. Buck or Rev. Jubb? Lizzie never asked any of them what they thought?"

A: They were meeting on the sly because of the dispproval.

"Question: Why didn't David ever marry Lizzie?"

A: He wanted to but she refused.





Gramma

These two answers don't fit together in my mind. When I try to put them together they make no sense. He kills Lizzie's parents because they disapproved of them seeing each other on the sly, even though he knew Lizzie did not want to marry him? If he knew that they were never going to be anything other than lovers then why kill Andrew and Abby over disapproving? That wasn't going to change Lizzie's mind.

Pardon me if this has already been stated and I missed it, but may I ask how is it documented/known that Lizzie refused his proposal ?


Tracy...

That is the whole point, Tracy. It is not documented and for those who want documentation for everything, they are going to have to go unsatisfied. There is much in life that is never documented and that does not mean it never occurred. It only means it is not in the "minutes" of this life's meeting.

Gramma

OK, so where did the 'refusal' story originate from to begin with ? Ruby ?


Tracy..

It was Ruby's claim to a Ph.D. in Biochemistry at Chapel Hill which was disproved.
The Registrar/Records office did an alphabetical search of microfiche for years 1908 thu 1971, and there was no record for a degree in her name. That was through phone contact. Also, the online services were also involved in a search thru their records and that result yielded no one of that name- but that negative e-mail result was received after publication of the Hatchet edition Oct/Nov 2004.
Basically, 2 divisions of the school did a search and did not find her.

Personally, I find any story about the murders interesting and we are very lucky to have Gramma here to represent the "old days."

Here are Jennings' "Marions"

Gramma @ Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:57 am wrote:That is the whole point, Tracy. It is not documented and for those who want documentation for everything, they are going to have to go unsatisfied. There is much in life that is never documented and that does not mean it never occurred. It only means it is not in the "minutes" of this life's meeting.

Gramma

Your whole story is not documented. Look, I''ll be the first to admit I have a few theories and I've speculated about a few things. Many of us do. And that's ok. But you're claiming your story is true and that all of this stuff went on between David and Lizzie and then you turn around and don't back it up with anything and to top it off you just blow everyone off with this, " I don't have to prove anything" mind set. Your story makes no sense, there are contradictions, and you have no proof.

Kat @ Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:16 am wrote:It was Ruby's claim to a Ph.D. in Biochemistry at Chapel Hill which was disproved.

Gee, why am I not surprised.

It's not Gramma's story- it's Ruby's story and she is now deceased.
Gramma worked with Ruby on her memoires, lived nearby and had a correspondence with her. She was her friend.
Sometimes friends don't challenge friends- especially the elderly- they just listen.
Ruby had no family to pass her stories on to, and so she picked certain people to talk to.
I still say we are lucky to have the story kept for us through all this time.
It probably won't be proved or disproved.

There are a few things that are both Gramma and Ruby's story. Actually I had heard of rumors to the effect of Lizzie possibly having a boyfriend when I was a teenager. No one specific, just coming up in casual conversations about the events. I was a teenager and did not "document" everyone I spoke to then. I did not envision ever being a member of some forum where I would have to prove everything beyond a reasonable doubt. This is not a courtroom, although I know there are legal minds out there who would like that kind of substantiation. Frankly, so would I. What Ruby did was confirm many things I had heard as a teen and young woman. Definitely NOT from my family. We still were in the "we don't talk about that" mode. To the day she died my mother still would say "Would your Grandmother approve of telling people that?"

When I met Ruby I was cautious. This was a subject I was brought up to be very cautious about. I did challenge her on things but not like a reporter. More like saying I might have heard something different. She often set me straight with firsthand experiences she had had. The story of her mother coming to this country was far more unbelievable than anything about David and Lizzie. Stories of the famous people she worked for I found fascinating and one by one they were verified. We shared stories of Fall River and New Bedford having nothing to do with Lizzie but I did not push her. I just let her remember, as best she could, all the her childhood times.
She was more excited about her travel on David's bike to Maplecroft remembering how her mother was so against it (yeh, I would be, too!!!). She didn't have any idea at the time about David's history like her mother did. But her dad was sure she would be OK and told her mother to let her go. In those days dad had the final word. Once the trip had been done without event it got easier to convince her mother. I think the story that convinced me was her sitting in the kitchen at Maplecroft and eating jellyroll and milk. At the time I did not know any connection but when I related the tale to my mother she gasped. She told me Emily Cook, a close friend of my grandparents had been Lizzie's cook at the time Ruby was speaking of and one of the things Emily was known for was her jellyroll. Things like that I call life's little confirmations. There were a number of those that occurred and told me Ruby was really telling me her life's events.
She did not trust me at first either. She wanted proof I was who I said I was, that my grandmother really did work for Lizzie and did exist. She had the city directories checked and even vital records before she opened up.
There was no stress in her voice like when she was speaking to reporters, just an older woman reminiscing with a friend. The hours spent together were joyful, relaxed, and involved far more than the Lizzie story. She shared how long and hard she had agonized over whether she should reveal the story and was still not convinced she should have done it. There was some guilt about betraying a confidence even though it had been so long. She knew there were still people it would affect like Mrs. Waring and she was not a person who wanted to hurt anyone.
These were all people who valued loyalty. It was a matter of pride and self-esteem to never talk about the negatives a family went through. It was the way I was brought up, too. If I was told it was not a matter for discussion that ended it right then and there. It was not until the sixties that it became popular to question that kind of suppression of information.

Gramma

Thank you for the details on your connection to this mystery we love. It is certainly 'information' related to the case. People are free to review it and decide for themselves whether to believe it or not. I guess technically, since NONE of us were privy to watching the murders AS they actually happened...we can only research all available information and evidence, make our 'educated guess' as to what REALLY occured on that day.


Tracy...

People should be allowed to research and challenge claims. Now I don't think any of us want to be rude or disrespectful but at the same time I don't think people should expect others to believe them simply because they demand we do. If something doesn't make sense people should challenge it. I have many issues with the whole Ruby Cameron story. The least of which is it makes no sense. I've noticed that not too many people other than Gramma have gone out on a limb to say they actually believe Ruby. They sort of tip toe around that. Btw, Victoria Lincoln grew up in Fall Rivers too and I noticed she didn't say a thing about David Anthony and Lizzie. And lord knows that woman told all of Fall River's gossip. Beside, Lizzie was more than likely a lesbian.