Lizzie's magical hands

[Harry]

Hands that don't get dirty in a dusty barn.

Lizzie stated in the inquest when questioned by Knowlton (p77):

"Q. Now I have asked you over and over again, and will continue the inquiry, whether anything you did at the bench would occupy more than three minutes?
A. Yes, I think it would, because I pulled over quite a lot of boards in looking.
Q. To get at the box?
A. Yes sir."

Mrs. Dr. Bowen testified at the trial (p1585):

"Q. Did you notice anything unusual about the appearance of her hands and face in respect to anything upon them?
A. Nothing upon them, but I noticed how very white they were, her hands especially, as they laid against her dark dress, in her lap."

Lizzie also refused the offer to have her hands bathed so I have to assume they were "very white" when she returned from the barn. That's kind of hard to explain if she moved "quite a lot of boards".

Pear juice and dust and yet her hands were very white.

[john]

Did Lubinski come forward with his story before or after it was reported in the papers that Lizzie claimed to be in the barn?

[DWilly]

Hands that don't get dirty in a dusty barn.



Pear juice and dust and yet her hands were very white.

It is strange. It's possible that she may have wiped her hands on her dress or perhaps she washed them after she entered the kitchen and she just didn't mention it in her testimony. I don't know for sure but maybe. You could also wonder why she didn't have so much as a drop of blood under her pristine nails.

[1bigsteve]

It would seem to me that after that scrounging around looking for sinker material, moving boards and eating juicy pears that Lizzie would most likely want to wash her hands (in the barn perhaps) before doing anything else.

Perhaps Lizzie wasn't in the barn or in the yard. She could have come up with all of this to get her "out of the house" during the killing. Her story sure seemed to change as to what she was doing.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Harry]

It's possible Steve but Lizzie doesn't mention it . Not only did she move boards around she rummaged through the box looking for lead. I know when I go through my junk box of collected metal parts (screws, nails, bolts, etc.) my hands get dirty. And mine are in the house, not in a barn.

Continuing her Inquest testimony (p77):

"Q. Taking all that, what is the amount of time you think you occupied in looking for that piece of lead which you did not find?
A. Well, I should think perhaps I was ten minutes.
Q. Looking over those old things?
A. Yes sir, on the bench.
Q. Now can you explain why you were ten minutes doing it?
A. No, only that I can't do anything in a minute.
Q. When you came down from the barn, what did you do then?
A. Came into the kitchen.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went into the dining room and laid down my hat."

I can't blame Knowlton but when you read Lizzie's testimony there must be a thousand follow-up questions you'd like him to ask. IMO, the prosecution was in too much of a rush to hold the inquest. They should have spent another day or two putting the case together. Whether it would have done any good I don't know but it wouldn't have hurt.

I think the blame can be placed in part on the Mayor by him going to the house before the inquest and telling Lizzie she was suspected. Knowlton probably figured that if any more time was taken Lizzie would lawyer-up.

[Audrey]

I doubt Lizzie would wipe her hands on her clothing. She seemed to have been far too fastidious for that.

[john]

Anyone who would have worn their hat to go out to the barn must have just in general, worn a hat around the house as well. If that was the case, Lizzie would be highly delusional, expecting that her prince or princess charming might stumble up the front steps at any moment. She doesn't mention wearing an apron which would have been normal daytime attire for a woman of a house. If Lizzie usually pranced around the house with her hat on eating an occasional cookie, and gruelingly ironing hankerchiefs, it would probably drive the hard working Abby and Bridget banannas.
If we look back on all things, Lizzie's stories can hold up, and be written off as confusion, but Bridget is clearly lying. There is absolutely no way that Bridget could have done the things which she said she did time after time, in the alloted time. So, you students of crime - here's two questions on the same thread to answer. (1) Did Lubinski say that he saw Lizzie coming from the barn before or after it was reported in the papers? (2) Bridget had very little time once she claimed to have gotten in the house. Did she want to put herself outside morely when Mrs. Borden was killed? Did she kill Mrs. Borden in her extra time? Once she got back inside was it ever checked that she washed any inside windows? Did Bridget know Lizzie was going to town because Lizzie had her hat on, so Bridget knew it was OK to kill Mr. Borden? Bridget and two dead bodies were the only ones in the house at one time, and the same is not true with Lizzie. Did Lizzie sense that her Father was in danger and come back into the house? She didn't seem to be particularly upset at the death of either her Father or Stepmother and people say she kept it inside, but it seems to me she cried at some point, perhaps when she was going to jail.
Detective work in 1892 was about the same as it is today - mostly street junk. The unusuality of having a woman as suspect in a felonious murder hampers detectives considerably. You can beat up a guy, and if he gripes no one will listen, but people listen to incarcerated women.
The crime probably would have been solved if detectives had separated and "closely" interrigated Lizzie, Bridget, and Uncle John at police hq.
As it stands now perhaps this room will solve it - never say never! But a lot that we all on here don't know was lost with David Kent, and Arnold Brown passing away, and the more time that evolves, the longer we get from the crime.

[sguthmann]

why assume lizzie went to the barn at all? what proof was there that she actually did? because she said she did? because someone claimed to see a lady in a dark dress and hat coming from the barn to the house? who's to say that was lizzie? it's story so ridiculous, that lizzie can't even keep straight what she went in there for in the first place, nor what she did once she was inside.

i think lizzie's hands were clean precisely because she did NOT go rifling around that barn for lead. she probably did not even eat a single pear. simply diversions to explain her being away from the house at a crucial moment. think that was coincidence? no way. if she ever did set foot in that barn on that day, it was likely to be physically out of the house til the deed was done, and/or to signal someone to go into the house and finish up what had begun in the guest room.

[john]

You're missing the point sq and read back. You're just about like everybody else on this forum - stupid. Why would a woman wear her hat to go out to the barn?

[sguthmann]

for the moment i'm going to ignore your preditably childish insult and refer you back to my post, john - a woman WOULD NOT wear a hat to the barn. it's precisely what i'm getting at. now who WOULD need to wear a hat to/from the barn that day? Someone who did not want to be recognized perhaps? Say, a man?

[john]

To answer your questions, because Lizzie said she went out to the barn, there is one independent witness who saw her coming back from the barn, and Lizzie said she put her hat down after she got back from the barn. Do you want a video?

[sguthmann]

To answer your questions, because Lizzie said she went out to the barn, there is one independent witness who saw her coming back from the barn, and Lizzie said she put her hat down after she got back from the barn. Do you want a video?

in answer to your answers:
1. and i suppose you believe everything lizzie had to say.
2. an independent witness saw what he believed to be a woman in dark dress and hat coming in from the direction of the Borden barn and going to the house.
3. so someone took off a hat and set it down once inside. big deal?

your answers really don't answer anything of the sort that I'm proposing. and yes, i'll happily watch that video if you have one. might clear up a whole heck of a lot. *lol*

[john]

No - Lizzie said explicitly that she put hat "down."
The independent witness had nothing to gain or to lose.
Lizzie did, at one time say she went out to the barn, and as Harry is thinking, went through some junk stuff without getting her hands dirty.
I'm not saying anything, nor I think is Harry - you be the judge.
Think a little - if you were a woman in normal daytime activities would you wear a hat? Would you normally wear an apron? Would you kibitz with the help for the first time in your life on the day your Stepmother and Father died?
I'm just asking you to think a little sq. I'm not asking that you have to read anything or to be anything - just think a little.
Then get back to me.

[FairhavenGuy]

You're missing the point sq and read back. You're just about like everybody else on this forum - stupid. Why would a woman wear her hat to go out to the barn?

If I were the Administrator around here, Johnny Boy, that post would have got you booted out of here.

I hope we'll be bidding you farewell soon. . .

[stuartwsa]

I personally try to stay out of forum battles. But it seems that every time I read the posts, john, that you are condescending, insulting, or talking in circles. You act as though you've got the solution to the Borden case at hand, which you might, or might NOT share, depending on your whim. I'm not impressed.
You may think you're The Wizard, but in my opinion, you're just the little man behind the curtain.

[Harry]

Chris, only we were that lucky!

sguthmann, I'm not a believer in that she ever went into the barn. If she did, she certainly didn't spend 20 minutes. Her story of the sinkers is just not reasonable. I brought the clean hands item up just for discussion.

There was a water tap on the first floor of the barn so she could have washed her hands there. IMO, if she did it wasn't because they were dirty from being up in the loft.

We have discussed in the past what Lubinsky saw, or could see, when he passed down Second St. Not a heck of a lot

[john]

I'll deal with you later Fairhavenguy, but first sg man. You havn't addressed any of those issues - so do it!

[john]

And Fairhavenguy - you're some kind of a dimwit who thinks he's smart and can spuriously interject comments at opportune times to make it appear that you know what's going on - you don't Fairhavenguy, and your little town's proximity to the Lizzie Borden crimes make you more of an outsider than what you believe yourself to be.
Harry at least has some knowledge to back him up, but you, Fairhaven Guy, have never thrown anything out, and I challenge you now to show me one post that had anything new to do with anything that you ever did!
So you're an old has been and I can relate to that, but don't come off on me like you're whopee goldberg!

[john]

And calling me Johnny Boy was your downfall. I was a Ranger Captain in the Army - were you ever in service? I have medals from the SE Asian Theatre, Afghanistan, Bolivian Trust Medal, Equadorian Service Medal, the Haiti Republican Medal, and many others, mostly from Cambodia which I can't publish. Also many from the United States and from South Viet Nam. So who are you calling a coward?

[1bigsteve]

I doubt Lizzie would wipe her hands on her clothing. She seemed to have been far too fastidious for that.

That is exactly what I was thinking. The first thing a person want's to do after going through a bunch of old dusty dirty stuff is to wash their hands, especially a woman. Certainly after eating a juicy pear. I imagine clothes were harder to clean in those days so I highly doubt Lizzie would wipe her hands on her dress.

-1bigsteve (o:

[stuartwsa]

Harry: I always liked the word that Victoria Lincoln used to describe Lizzie's hands: immaculate.
One doesn't imagine those hands rifling through dusty boxes to fine bits of lead to make sinkers (or tin to fix a screen), OR being able to magically remove blood from under the nails, and around the cuticles.

[sguthmann]

No - Lizzie said explicitly that she put hat "down."
The independent witness had nothing to gain or to lose.
Lizzie did, at one time say she went out to the barn, and as Harry is thinking, went through some junk stuff without getting her hands dirty.
I'm not saying anything, nor I think is Harry - you be the judge.
Think a little - if you were a woman in normal daytime activities would you wear a hat? Would you normally wear an apron? Would you kibitz with the help for the first time in your life on the day your Stepmother and Father died?
I'm just asking you to think a little sq. I'm not asking that you have to read anything or to be anything - just think a little.
Then get back to me.

john, your answers still don't make any sort of argument against what I am trying to point out. i don't care if lizzie said she set her hat down. i don't care that the witness had nothing to lose with his account.. what I'm getting at is that you cannot automatically rely on what Lizzie says she did, with regards to the barn, hat or anything else. you've got to examine it.

yes, there appears to be a hat involved, although I doubt lizzie wore it that day. but what if she knew someone had worn it that day, someone who would be mistook for her? obviously she would make mention, "oh yes, i came in from the barn and set my hat down..." gives physical "evidence" of her trip out to the barn and back, and is conveniently observed by our witness. as far as her donning the hat and traveling out to the barn and back, it proves nothing.

yes the witness had nothing to lose or gain by his account. i believe he reported exactly what he saw, as any good citizen would. it was convenient for lizzie that he did see what he did and reported it to authorities, because it seems to imply that yes, lizzie did visit the barn as she said she did, because someone appears to have seen her. except that, as in the case of the hat, it means nothing. it's not proof of anything other than someone wearing the clothing and hat described came from the direction of the barn and was traveling to the house. that's all.

and personally, john, i'm getting rankled at your admonitions for me to "think a little." none of us are mindreaders, john, but i assure you we are thinking. if you want some sort of discourse on your theory(ies), then state what the heck they are. your cryptic "clues" are becoming beyond a bore, they're simply a nuisance. put up or shut up, is what my father always said.

[Harry]

... One doesn't imagine those hands rifling through dusty boxes to fine bits of lead to make sinkers (or tin to fix a screen), OR being able to magically remove blood from under the nails, and around the cuticles.

Like most of the items in the case the clean hands can be taken several ways.

They were clean because she never was in the barn doing what she said she did.

They were absent of blood because she never killed anybody.

But she could have worn gloves for the latter but would have no reason to do so for the former. In fact if she wanted to lend credence to the story she wanted everyone to believe you would think she would have gotten her hands dirty.

If Lizzie was the killer, and she could hide a dress and a hatchet, a pair of gloves would be a snap to hide.

I too don't believe she would wipe them on her dress. Very unladylike.

[Kat]

It's a coincidence, but I was just writing to FairhavenGuy today to help me with info and research on some past inhabitants of his town, Fairhaven.
Of course I would go to him with any questions to do with his town's history.

But then I find out there is a Forum-AOL problem in E-mail at this time, and so I will say to you Christopher that I do need your help and will send you a PM.
Thanks ahead of time!
Yr. friend, Kat

[Audrey]

In a world where Alice Russel would pause to change clothes before going to the Borden house, how do we know for sure Lizzie wouldn't put a hat on before going to the barn? And furthermore, how do we know WHY she might wear one? If she really went to the barn she might have wanted something on her head to protect her hair from cobwebs and dust.... People didn't shower and wash their hair daily in thost times....

John-- you cannot judge Lizzie's actions and habits based on what little you know about proper ladies today. (If indeed you even know one)

[Harry]

IMO, it was almost a subconscience thing to put on hat before going outdoors, especially for women.

This is from Bridget's testimony at the trial:

"Q. Did you have anything more said between you at that time?
A. No, sir, not at that time. She wanted to know if I knew where Miss Russell lived, and I says, "Yes." She says, "Go and get her. I can't be alone in the house." So I stepped inside the entry and got a hat and shawl that was hanging inside the entry and went down to Miss Russell."

Here Bridget is being sent out on an emergency and yet she stops to get a hat and shawl. Not that I personally recognize classes of people but if a person of Bridget's class would make sure she had a hat, Lizzie would have as well.

[theebmonique]

Not being experienced with flats for ironing, is it possible that Lizzie would have worn gloves while using them...and then not taken the gloves off when she went to the barn ? As I say that, I think no because why would she eat pears with gloves on...?

I like Harry's most recent explanation about Lizzie's hands...


Tracy...

[Audrey]

the same habit some women have today of never leaving the house without her handbag.

[1bigsteve]

Perhaps Lizzie put her hat on to protect herself from the hot sun... Or she could have intended to go down town but got side tracked with the barn...

-1bigsteve (o:

[Harry]

the same habit some women have today of never leaving the house without her handbag.

Hopefully a Birkin bag, Auds.

[theebmonique]

Or second choice...Prada.


Tracy...

[Audrey]

You could fit a Prada bag in a Birkin bag.... easily.

[theebmonique]

Yes, as you well know my dear sister.

Would there have been any reason, in the normal daily scheme of things, for Liz to be wearing any kind of glove ?


Tracy...

[Harry]

I think we do a lot of everyday things subconsciously. It's like driving a car, you do things automatically.

I believe the flat-irons had wooden handles. My grandmother had one but I never seen it in use.

I was struck by how small the one at the B&B was but then they have that very small ironing board. Does anyone know if that was the size of the board Lizzie would have used for ironing her hankies?

[sguthmann]

putting on a hat before going out isn't so strange in that day and age, as referenced by Harry's passage. in fact, i think women of the age were careful to cover up when going outdoors, to keep their skin as fair and pale as possible (funny how things change!), especially women of Lizzie's standing. gloves for going outdoors might also be something that was common practice, though i'm really not sure.

so, true, the hat business in and of itself would not raise my suspicions. however, i'm with Harry, i don't think Lizzie was in the barn at all, or not for very long, and wasn't actively looking for any metal pieces. i don't think she was the one to "get their hands dirty" in the murders either, but i feel she must have had a role in it all.

[Kat]

Q. When you came down from the barn, what did you do then?
A. Came into the kitchen.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I went into the dining room and laid down my hat.

At this point I always want to ask:
Why did Lizzie first go into the kitchen?
She didn't go in there to put down her hat- if she had one.
And the sinkroom was very near the side entrance, so if she wished to claim that she had washed her hands, she passes that area and enters the kitchen.
I suppose the flats on the stove might be something she was checking?
But she doesn't say she washed and she doesn't say she checked her flats then, and she didn't put down a hat- and then puts it down in the dining room of all places- and gives her reason for going upstairs thru the sitting room as being because she wanted to sit down.

So why not sit in the dining room, or the sitting room and if she's going upstairs really, why not take her hat up with her?

[Fargo]

Mabe Lizzie was planning on going outside again very shortly, perhaps planning to leave the yard. In this case it might make more sense to leave her hat downstairs.

I would think that the place for her hat would be on the hat rack if there was one. We all put things in places where they don't belong though.

[1bigsteve]

Mabe Lizzie was planning on going outside again very shortly, perhaps planning to leave the yard. In this case it might make more sense to leave her hat downstairs.

I would think that the place for her hat would be on the hat rack if there was one. We all put things in places where they don't belong though.

That is close to what I was thinking, Tony.

Perhaps Lizzie put the hat on to go down town but got side tracked with the barn, perhaps to look to see if she already had what she was going into town for (sinkers?). She came into the house for something, put her hat down, then discovered her dad's body. Done ruined her plans I guess.

The police said there were no foot prints in the loft so I doubt Lizzie was up there as she said. Lizzie may have realized that she needed a better alibi than just "I want out in the barn to see if I had any fishing sinkers" while my dad was being killed. She may have added to that with the talk about being in the loft, looking for the sinkers of course, piece of metal to fix the screen, eating pears and all that. If she was the killer she would of course have had to create an alibi that would keep her out of the house long enough for the "real killer" to do his thing and escape without Lizzie seeing him.

But if Lizzie was the killer I would think her alibi would have been something like, "Well, I was going into town to buy some sinkers when my dad came home early. After checking to see if he needed anything I put my hat on and went to the barn to see if I already had something I could use as sinkers. When I couldn't find anything I went into town and when I came home I discovered my dad's body." That, to me, would be a better alibi. That is what I would have probably done if I had been Lizzie. But of course Lizzie never went into town.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Bob Gutowski]

This interesting and oft-contentious thread makes me remember one of the problems I had with the Jack the Ripper film From Hell. Heather Graham is not only the cleanest prostitute in London, with the best teeth, she doesn't wear a hat in the street.

Ridiculous! You know that the makers of The Legend of Lizzie Borden didn't have Maggie put on that cap and shawl presumably because these days, we'd think "Who would do that?"

In the day, however, they'd think "Who WOULDN'T do that?" It was expected, and it was habitual.

Now, those hands. As guilty as I believe Lizzie to be, I think she washed her hands whether or not she'd been to the barn, and quite simply didn't speak of it, as she was never questioned about it. Therefore, Miss Lincoln's sneaky assertion concerning the state of Lizzie's hands as recalled by Mrs. Churchill could mean something, or nothing.

I had blood all over 'em, and I washed 'em. I never had blood all over 'em. I was looking for sinkers, and I rinsed 'em before I came into the house. They were all sticky with pear juice, and I washed them in the sink room after I found Father. Anyway, no one ever ASKED me, dammit!

[Susan]

Questions come to my mind thinking about Lizzie's hat. When did Lizzie put the hat on and where? Most of the hats that women wore in the 1890s sat rather high up on the head which I assume necessitated the use of a hatpin. I agree that over time most women would be able to put on a hat with a hatpin without the use of a mirror if necessary, but, for a women of leisure like Lizzie, don't you think she'd check herself somewhere first before leaving the house? And, since the hats of the time period weren't really very big, wouldn't a parasol be better sun protection if that was Lizzie's aim?

[Kat]

But why did she go into the kitchen?

Also, the hatstand/coatrack thing was in the front foyer and I think she liked to use the front door.
So if she was headed upstairs, she could plop that hat in the foyer on the coatrack thing there and go up, clean up from the barn, if that was her intention, then come down, get her hat and go out the front door.
She can't leave thru the screen door because she has already admonished Bridget to lock up because she might go out. So she would exit the front door which was the only door she could lock herself when leaving and leaving the screen door hooked (or *locked*).

[Bob Gutowski]

In addition to what I wrote above, what if guilty Lizzie was about to make one of her numerous suspect pronouncements? One to the effect of "Look how CLEAN my hands are, everybody!" when she suddenly realized "Oh, no - they should be dusty and sticky - and there's no point for even me, Miss Big-Mouth Borden, to exclaim 'I washed my hands,' 'cause that might sound even more suspicious."

"So, I'll just sit here. Though I DO wish they would look for Abby. Maybe I should say something..."

[Susan]

But why did she go into the kitchen?

Also, the hatstand/coatrack thing was in the front foyer and I think she liked to use the front door.
So if she was headed upstairs, she could plop that hat in the foyer on the coatrack thing there and go up, clean up from the barn, if that was her intention, then come down, get her hat and go out the front door.
She can't leave thru the screen door because she has already admonished Bridget to lock up because she might go out. So she would exit the front door which was the only door she could lock herself when leaving and leaving the screen door hooked (or *locked*).

Thats very true, since Lizzie couldn't lock the side door after herself, she would have to leave the house by the front door. So, her trip to the barn, real or imagined, would have to be just that and not a quick detour before leaving the Borden property to go shopping downtown. That may be the sole reason that Lizzie went into the kitchen, she had to come back into the house through the door she came out of and couldn't fasten behind herself. And then in order to get to the sitting room or dining room, Lizzie had to enter the kitchen partially by the stove to get to either of the doors there in that little alcove. Didn't Lizzie mention in her inquest that when she came back from the barn that the fire had gone out and she couldn't do anymore ironing and thought to wait when Bridget heated up the stove for lunch. So, she would have to stop in the kitchen to check that.

[diana]

It's interesting that Bridget testifies that the screen door was not locked when she went for Dr. Bowen.

"Q: At that time when you went out after Dr. Bowen, did you find the screen door locked?
A: No Sir.
Q: Shut up?
A: Yes Sir." (Bridget:Prelim.,28)

So, if Lizzie was outside -- did she not lock it when she came in? Or did she open it when she discovered the body -- before she called Bridget down? Or did she not go out at all and Bridget simply neglected to lock it when she finished the outside windows?

[Edisto]

Somewhere in all the reams of testimony, there's a statement that the Bordens kept a "rough and ready" hat hanging conveniently near one of the doors. I believe it was near the side door that Lizzie would have entered when she came from the barn (if indeed she came from the barn at all). I remember this testimony well, because the first time I read it, I formed a picture in my mind of Lizzie going outside attired in the sort of hat Teddy Roosevelt would have worn while charging up San Juan Hill. No, no, it wasn't a "rough rider" hat; I assume it was simply an old cast-off hat for the women of the family to don it they needed to go outside briefly and wanted to make sure their complexions were protected. It could even have been a man's hat, I suppose. If Lizzie had grabbed that hat for her trip to the barn, one wonders why she didn't hang it back up on her way in, rather than laying it down. At any rate, the presence of such a hat in the household underscores the fact that it was quite normal to put on a hat for even the briefest trip outside. I've never heard, however, that women (or men for that matter) were in the habit of wearing hats indoors. We're not talking about a fashion statement here; we're talking about protective gear. I doubt that Lizzie would have mentioned wearing a hat to the barn if she had thought of that as an abnormal thing to do.

[Bob Gutowski]

Annette, just because you brought it up, I think women of the day would wear their good hats while visiting, leaving them on while they had tea, for example. I think Geary depicts Abby with a hat on as she sits in Bowen's examining room, but Lizzie is bareheaded at Alice's. I'm not near the book, though, as I'm at work.

I'd like to know more about this, just as a point of interest. Those little rules of conduct fascinate me.

"The past is a different country..."

[Harry]

Here's Bridget's testimony re the hat in the entry way from the Preliminary, p61:

"Q. Any hooks there on the wall, or nails, or anything to hang clothing on in the entry way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who hung clothes there?
A. Nobody hung clothes there, except my apron.
Q. Was not there a hat ever hung there?
A. No Sir, not in that entry.
Q. What, the back entry?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you ever see a woman’s hat hung up there?
A. No Sir, except mine.
Q. You hung up your own hat there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did Miss Lizzie ever have a hat hung there?
A. I did not see it.
Q. A sort of a soft felt hat, or a rough hat?
A. She might while brushing it, or something. She did not keep it there that I recollect.
Q. Any other clothing?
A. A shawl that belongs to the house; sometimes I used to take it on my shoulders to go to the store, or something like that."

And then at the Trial, p245:

"Q. Did you have anything more said between you at that time?
A. No, sir, not at that time. She wanted to know if I knew where Miss Russell lived, and I says, "Yes." She says, "Go and get her. I can't be alone in the house." So I stepped inside the entry and got a hat and shawl that was hanging inside the entry and went down to Miss Russell."

[Kat]

...and [Lizzie] gives her reason for going upstairs thru the sitting room as being because she wanted to sit down.

I found something interesting in Alice Russell's inquest testimony, pg. 146.

She says, under questioning, that the girls used the guest room for a sitting room, as far as she knows. I know we know this, but f you read her comments, it sounds like we should be expecting Lizzie to actually go to the guestroom to sit down, rather than anywhere else.
It was no longer occupied- it had been cleaned. And if Lizzie wished to P.O. Abby (who may or may not have been expecting guests Monday)- she would naturally go to her own "sitting room" as Alice calls it.

Well, we know what stopped her from going up there to sit down and come stumbling upon Abby!

[nbcatlover]

I personally believe that the the lead for sinkers or patching for a screen were quick excuses made by Lizzie to cover the real reason she went to the barn.

I believe she was dressed to go out (including hat) and went to the barn to meet someone who was waiting there. Somewhere in the barn statements, there was one man who claimed that there was a pile of hay that looked like someone had been laying down on it.

[sguthmann]

i too think lizzie went to the barn to meet with someone. i think someone was there waiting, and had been since at least the night before (some neighbor and her daughter said they'd heard noises about midnight coming from the Borden barn). i'm not so sure that the ice cream man saw lizzie actually going back into the house- he may have seen someone he thought was lizzie? - but i think it may have been whoever was waiting for her in the barn, dressed as lizzie.