Why Did Alice Change?

[Kat]

In Alice Russell's inquest testimony there is something about Andrew's stick under the bed which scared her. She found it on Saturday before the funeral. She thought it implicated her or something- but it seems to have shaken her.
Then she changed bedrooms.

She had started out in the elder Borden's bedroom, for 2 nights, but after she saw the stick (or club?) she did move sleeping arrangements and switched to Emma's little room.

She says, under oath, that it was not the reason she changed- but then she never says Why.

[diana]

I wonder when that club got there?

I still find it odd that Fleet claims three officers looked under the Borden's bed on August 4th -- and found nothing there.

"Q: What other active efforts did you make in the search of that room?
A: Looked under the bed.
Q: And I suppose you did not find a man there, did you?
A: No
Q: Did you find any implements under there that could murder anybody?"
A: No, sir." (Trial, 521)

You'd think he'd remember the club ... if it was there.

[DWilly]

In Alice Russell's inquest testimony there is something about Andrew's stick under the bed which scared her. She found it on Saturday before the funeral. She thought it implicated her or something- but it seems to have shaken her.
Then she changed bedrooms.

She had started out in the elder Borden's bedroom, for 2 nights, but after she saw the stick (or club?) she did move sleeping arrangements and switched to Emma's little room.

She says, under oath, that it was not the reason she changed- but then she never says Why.

If I had found a stick under the bed I would have simply thought Andrew kept it there in case someone broke in. Alice seemed to have gotten a tad jumpy in that house. Not that I can blame her to a degree. I wonder if Lizzie might of asked Alice to change rooms to be nearer her?

[Allen]

I wonder when that club got there?

I still find it odd that Fleet claims three officers looked under the Borden's bed on August 4th -- and found nothing there.

"Q: What other active efforts did you make in the search of that room?
A: Looked under the bed.
Q: And I suppose you did not find a man there, did you?
A: No
Q: Did you find any implements under there that could murder anybody?"
A: No, sir." (Trial, 521)
You'd think he'd remember the club ... if it was there.

He answered that in response to the question did you find any ' implements under there that could murder anybody.' Maybe everyone was too concerned with hatchets, axes, and sharp edged weapons to think about the club? It obviously wasn't used in the murder, so maybe this is why he didn't think to say anything about it? I only say this because the wording of the question could lead to believe what he was implying was did he find any weapons under the bed that could've been used in the commission of the murders.

[Harry]

Maybe Emma wanted to move into her parent's room and Alice obliged. Wasn't that Emma's room after that?

[sguthmann]

I wonder when that club got there?

I still find it odd that Fleet claims three officers looked under the Borden's bed on August 4th -- and found nothing there.

"Q: What other active efforts did you make in the search of that room?
A: Looked under the bed.
Q: And I suppose you did not find a man there, did you?
A: No
Q: Did you find any implements under there that could murder anybody?"
A: No, sir." (Trial, 521)

You'd think he'd remember the club ... if it was there.

Yes, but even Alice's inquest testimony puts that in question:

Q. Where was it exactly?
A. At the head of the bed.
Q. Under?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How much in sight?
A. So that I saw it as I turned.
Q. Had it been there before?
A. I had not seen it before.

Alice goes on to say it might have been there the whole time, it was possible, but that had it been in that place before, she would probably have seen it.

And then there's Alice's reaction upon seeing the stick for the first time. She was alarmed that it might implicate her. Interesting? I think so. Did Alice think someone in that house was perhaps trying to frame/implicate another in the deed? I know that the papers were rife with rumors and all of Fall River wanted to find the perp as quickly as possible, but did she really think she would be a viable suspect just because a club was under the deceased couple's bed?

Although Alice doesn't come out and state it, I think she was quite creeped out by the sudden appearance of the stick under the bed. Was it some sort of message? Intimidation? I really have no idea, but it was enough to unnerve her, apparently enough so that she no longer wanted to be in that room.

[DWilly]

If Alice was afraid to be in that room than why stay in the house at all? Would changing rooms be enough to be safe? Being closer to Lizzie? Personally, I think the police didn't think the club was the murder weapon and so they didn't say anything and as for Alice I think she was just a bit jumpy. Like I said, I think the club belonged to Andrew.

[Kat]

Thanks for the testimony you guys!
It still is a mystery to me.
I don't think it was there before, but granted Alice admitted to not looking under the bed.
But the search of Saturday happened as the family went off to the funeral.
And yet that club or stick was now within sight, where it had not been in sight before.
So sometime between Friday night and Saturday at around 9 AM, that stick had been touched or moved in some way, or put there.
Maybe it alarmed Alice more to know that her things might have been gone thru by someone- that someone had visited her room and might have looked at her things?

It seems creepy to me.
Emma's little bedroom seems the safest place in the house, having one entrance into it, period.

Do we know Emma used the elder Borden's room ever after that? Is the phrase "You did change?" mean she switched with Emma?

Notice, she is asked, too, if the doors between their rooms were now left unlocked. That sort of implies one of the girls might have put it there, but Alice says she thought the girls did not know she found it.
Alice did tell Hanscob about it, yet did not tell her friends.

[theebmonique]

I am not sure, but would the stick/club found under the bed (Andrew's side..right ?), support Lizzie's claim of Andrew having had trouble with someone over business (and ordering him out of the house)...just prior to the murders..and that he had kept it there for protection (as mentioned a few posts back) ?


Tracy...

[theebmonique]

deleted

[theebmonique]

deleted

[Harry]

Lizzie testified about the club under the bed at the Inquest (p86):

"Q. Did you ever see that thing? (Wooden club.)
A. Yes, sir; I think I have.
Q. What is it?
A. My father used to keep something similar to this, that looked very much like it under his bed. He whittled it out himself at the farm one time.
Q. How long since you have seen it?
A. I have not seen it in years.
Q. How many years?
A. I could not tell you. I should think 10 or 15 years; not since I was quite a little girl, if that is the one. I can't swear that it is the one; it was about that size. (Marks it with a cross.)
Q. How many years, 10 or 15?
A. I was a little girl, it must be as much as that."

It was a bit more than that Lizzie, if you were a little girl.

It doesn't appear that Alice was questioned about the club at the Trial.

[theebmonique]

I guess the part from that testimony that makes me wonder, is when Lizzie says she hadn't seen the club for years. It made me think maybe it hadn't been there for a while, and that Andrew had recently put it back...because he felt he needed to for some reason.


Tracy...

[Allen]

Also, if it were kept under Andrew's bed, what reasons would Lizzie have had for looking under there?

[sguthmann]

If Alice was afraid to be in that room than why stay in the house at all? Would changing rooms be enough to be safe?

This is a good question. The only thing I can think of to answer for it would be that the Borden's bedroom had more than one point of access to it -the backstairs way, and the door between Lizzie's room and the Bordens' room, which Alice acknowledges was kept unlocked following the murders while she stayed there. As Kat pointed out, Emma's room had one point of access - through Lizzie's room - but as I see it, that would almost be worse. Let's say you're worried that the murderer might come back to the house to finish the deed. Two things would worry me about being in Emma's bedroom: 1) its Emma's bedroom, and if the murderer is coming back to finisih off the family, obviously he/she will want to go after the two sisters, and if the person has the knowledge of the house that the murder would seem to imply, then he/she probably knows whose bedroom is whose; and 2) Emma's room has only has one way in, and onw way out. No alternate routes for escape if a madman comes in. If that doorway is blocked, you're a goner.

In reading Alice's inquest testimony re: the stick, something has occurred to me that I had not caught before, something that may add to our understanding of why she was so alarmed by this incident (in addition to it just being creepy, period).

Alice testifies:

A. The morning of the funeral I went out to do some errands; and when I came back my hair was tumbled, and I took my dress waist off, and combed my hair. When I had gotten through I put my waist on again, and had nearly finished it, and I turned, and I saw something in under the bed that frightened me almost to pieces.

The stick, of course. Then, in a later exchange:

Q. Had you been sleeping in the house every night?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You slept there that night?
A. Yes Sir, that is what frightened me so much, it was in my room.

So, if I understand this correctly, Alice stays there Thursday and Friday nights (Aug 4th and 5th), sleeping in the Bordens' room, and Saturday, the day of the funeral, she gets up early to run some errands, then returns and goes back into the Bordens' bedroom to fix her mussed hair, and notices the stick for the first time. She's basically implying that A) someone put the stick under the bed while she was out, or B) maybe even creepier, someone had put the stick under the bed while she was sleeping. Either way, I'm sure she found it creepy, but maybe the thought that "someone" had potentially put it under the bed while she was sleeping was enough to cause her to change rooms. Even in spite of the two reasons I just gave as to why I would tend to think that Emma's room was not necessarily any safer (and perhaps less so), perhaps Alice felt safer knowing that "someone" would have to enter through Lizzie's room before they could get to her, and perhaps give her a chance to be awakened??

[Kat]

Well, Alice probably then did not have any suspicion of Lizzie as murderer! I was waiting for you to also make that point. If she moved to Emma's room and it comes out of Lizzie's then Lizzie was just that much closer.
Lizzie had put back the hook between the elder Borden's bedroom and her own, so that could be locked if need be- if Alice needed to be killed.

It's still a decent question as to why if Alice was so afraid, why didn't she go home?
In fact, Alice was still there after that meeting in the parlour with the mayor where he tells Lizzie she is suspected.
She still stayed.
I wonder what Alice thought of His Honor's seeming certainty?
(Is a Mayor referred to as "Your Honor?").

[sguthmann]

yes, alice must've not been too afraid of lizzie to be moving closer to her in terms of bedrooms...at least at that point. of course, the dress burning incident had not yet happened.

as far as alice's suspicions, i think at the time of the mayor's visit, she probably would not allow herself to even consider the idea that lizzie had something to do with the murders, no matter who else thought so. i imagine she simply told herself, "they've got it wrong" and thought that with the proper time and further investigation, the authorities would reach the same conclusion.

[Kat]

Would a girl here stay with her orphaned friends after a murder in the house? (Assuming the crime scene was released at a reasonable time?)
She must have been very brave.
And not too bright?
Does Alice seem *bright* to everyone?

[DWilly]

Would a girl here stay with her orphaned friends after a murder in the house? (Assuming the crime scene was released at a reasonable time?)
She must have been very brave.
And not too bright?
Does Alice seem *bright* to everyone?

I think Alice was bright. The thing is I also think she was confused as to what to do. Lizzie and Emma were her friends and had been for years. I think she stayed at the house because she cared about the both of them and they may have asked her to stay. There's no telling how much Alice may have known because from what I've seen neither Knowlton nor Moody really asked her anything. Here are some questions I would have loved to have asked Alice:

1. Did Lizzie ever tell you what she thought of Abby?

2. Did Lizzie write to you while she was at Marion? If so, where's the letter?

3. Did Lizzie have a boyfriend?....I find it very hard to believe that Lizzie, with her mouth, wouldn't have told at least one woman friend about a "boyfriend"

4. At anytime did Lizzie vanish for a few unexplained hours?...In other words did she sneak off to have the alleged abortion.

5. What did Emma say/write about Abby?

6. What if anything did Lizzie say about John Morse? Dr. Bowen?

7. Do you have any letters Lizzie wrote from Europe?


That's just a few of my questions.

[Angel]

Does anyone think that Lizzie did not have her period a few days before the murders, but instead was finishing bleeding from an abortion that Dr. Bowen could have secretly performed to save the family from disgrace? Lizzie could have gone off her head after the trauma of that, tried to poison her folks for having forced her to go through that, failed at that and then lost it and axed them to death in a fit of frenzy. The post traumatic stress disorder caused her to act out of character. (The baby could have been a cause of incest which was like the last straw in her disfunctional life.) Dr. Bowen was acting strangely because he was trying to protect the family name and trying to protect himself. Emma was gone because she couldn't take what was happening. Morse was called there after the abortion because Lizzie was acting irrationally and Andrew wanted help with controlling her. Andrew asked Emma when she felt she had to get out of there if he could reach her if things got too hairy. Abby was cleaning the guest room for the arrival of a nurse who could watch Lizzie through her craziness. After the murder, all the causes of Lizzie's frenzy were gone, so she was able to get a grip and live "normally" ever after. She felt little guilt after the murders because she felt her father was the criminal and Abby the accomplice who should both be punished. If her stingy father was giving her furs and trips to Europe, etc., maybe it was to assuage his own guilt.

[Allen]

I have an friend who raised this as a possible scenario, that Lizzie had an abortion with Dr. Bowen's help. This is her theory. According to her the bloody rags found in the bucket in the cellar were from the abortion. The aprons buried with the Borden's bloody clothes were also worn during the abortion, and this is why Uncle John wanted to bury the items in the back yard. She also says this was the real reason for Dr. Bowen's visit the day before, he was there to perform the actual abortion. This is also why Andrew treated Dr. Bowen badly, he was very upset that his daughter had disgraced the family, and was taking it out on Dr. Bowen as he was there and a major player in the dirty little secret. This even takes care of the "My money shant pay for it" statement made by Andrew, if taken in this context. Emma had gone away because she knew what was going to happen, and wanted no part in it. She and Uncle John were very close, and she was also somewhat jealous when she found out the situation with Lizzie.

She has Uncle John Morse as the father though. In her scenario this explains why Lizzie seems to be 'avoiding' Morse in her testimony, and why Morse also states he did not see Lizzie. She says that Morse became enraged and killed Abby, and then left the house in a hurry to try to create himself an alibi by going to visit relatives. Which left Lizzie to kill Andrew when he got home. If Morse couldn't have been there to kill Andrew it would've made it appear less likely that he killed Abby, and vice versa for Lizzie.The only flaw in their cover up, according to her, is that Lizzie's alibi of being in the barn was too weak. Since the murders were supposed to be "clearly" the work of one madman they both would've been safe from suspicion.

[Angel]

I didn't think of Morse as the father because he had not visited for a long while. He would have had to be around about 2 to 5 months before, and I don't think he was.

[Allen]

According to Morse's inquest testimony he was there around the 10th of July, and before that somewhere around the end of June. I raised that same question about the theory and checked that part of it out.

[Allen]

However, I think if you consider the theory that Lizzie's pregnancy and subsequent abortion precipitated the murders, there are many possible theories as to who could've been the father as well. That was just my friends theory.

[Angel]

Oh, OK, then Morse could have been a possibility. I really do think there was some incest going on somewhere though, and it probably made her totally non-receptive to males in general. That's why no one ever heard anything about boy friends. She was probably repulsed.

[DWilly]

Oh, OK, then Morse could have been a possibility. I really do think there was some incest going on somewhere though, and it probably made her totally non-receptive to males in general. That's why no one ever heard anything about boy friends. She was probably repulsed.

I brought this up once a long time ago but I'll bring it up again. When I went to visit the house on Second Street the guide told me that Morse usually slept in that very tiny room next to Bridget's room. Now, I've been told that maybe Morse slept in the guest room because Bridget was in the other room and it wouldn't look good to have a single man next to a single woman. The thing is wasn't that always the case? In other words hadn't Bridget been in that room for a few years and before her Maggie? So, why on this night did Uncle Morse suddenly want to sleep in a room next to Lizzie....when Emma was out of town?

[Allen]

I had posted awhile back in another thread about Morse sleeping in the guest room on occassions before that night. It seems it wasn't so out of character for him to have slept in the guest room. I'll try to find that post.

[Allen]

This is what I posted in another thread entitled Morse Again. This is what made me believe he had slept in the guest room on other occassions before that Wednesday night. These are questions that Bridget answered in reference to the guest room.

Trial testimony of Bridget Sullivan:

Q. Do you know who took charge of the room in the front part of the house?
A. Well, when Miss Emma was home she done it. When Mr. Morse was there or when Mrs. Borden had any friends there, I guess she done it or helped do it, that is, as far as I can remember.

Q. This is the front chamber you are talking about?
A. Yes, sir.

[Harry]

I should think it wouldn't be Morse's decision as to which room he slept in. It was probably Abby's. After all he was still a guest and not a member of the household.

I seem to remember a similar discussion and that Morse would use the small bedroom when the guest room was being used in dress making or some other activity by the family. I may be wrong though as it's been a while since that discussion. Maybe that was speculation in that discussion.

One thing I found interesting was that Morse when he slept in the guest room that night before the murders was that he left the door open. And him without any sleeping attire since he arrived luggage free.

[Allen]

I remember a discussion like that also, but I don't know from where or when. I'll have to try and figure that out.

What I keep asking myself is not why Morse was sleeping in the guest room on the night before the murders. I don't understand why a victorian lady of the house would ask a guest, family or not, to sleep in the attic if they had a perfectly good guest room available. If he did sleep in the attic, in my opinion it would be because the guest room wasn't available.
The help slept in the attic. Bridget slept there, and she stated that the man from the farm named Albert slept there on occassion. I can't even see doing that today. If I have a spare room with a bed in it, I'm not going to ask someone to sleep in the attic.

What I keep asking myself is the opposite, why he spent time in the attic room during the time that he stayed with the Bordens. Especially the year that he stayed with them.

[Harry]

I found the discussion at this thread. It's toward the end.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... hawaii.htm

[Allen]

Thanks Harry. That was fast work.

I'm still asking myself the same thing. Why would Morse sleep in a space that I believe would be designated for the help?

I noticed in the discussion that the question was also raised as to why the guest room wasn't used as a bedroom. The question was raised as to who would be important enough when visiting that they would need to keep that room as a guest room. Back then any visitor was a 'status' visitor. Guests were treated with all possible curtesy and given every luxury no matter who they were. It was part of the etiquette of the time. They would not be asked to basically sleep in the same space as the help. It wasn't only the guests status that would dictate that, but your own social status. People of a certain social standing would not put guests up in the servants space anymore than they would put the servants up in the guest room.

So I'm still back to my original question, why would Morse sleep in the attic?

[sguthmann]

why would morse have slept in the attic? how about to "keep the peace?" what if lizzie strenously objected to having him that near to her own quarters (for whatevever reason), or maybe both girls were not wild about having him that near to their sleeping quarters? maybe since he was a lifelong bachelor, perhaps it would have seemed inappropriate to some to have him sleeping so near two unmarried women. maybe their reputation would have suffered more than the hired help's?

or what if the girls collectively threw a fit because their "entertaining room" would have been taken away from them while he was there? after all, he was just ol' odd uncle morse. not exactly a distinguished guest, perhaps, in their eyes, and not needing to be treated any different. i doubt morse would have made much of a fuss, after all, he most likely just wanted a place with free room and board while he was there.

just some ideas. i guess i feel that perhaps lizzie was the most likely reason behind him staying in the attic.

[Allen]

why would morse have slept in the attic? how about to "keep the peace?" what if lizzie strenously objected to having him that near to her own quarters (for whatevever reason), or maybe both girls were not wild about having him that near to their sleeping quarters? maybe since he was a lifelong bachelor, perhaps it would have seemed inappropriate to some to have him sleeping so near two unmarried women. maybe their reputation would have suffered more than the hired help's?

I don't think that their reputation wouldn't suffered from anything if he slept in the guest room, he was an unmarried bachelor, true. But he was an unmarried Uncle, the brother of their dead mother. He was family so married or not married in my opinion I don't think that would've applied. He was sleeping in the guest room on the night before the murders so it must not have seemed too inappropriate. Emma was also away from home, so if Lizzie had any protests for Uncle Morse sleeping in the guest room I would think she would really voice them at that time, when it would mean she and Morse were the only two occupying the front rooms of the house.

Emma stated that he was a very dear uncle. He had taken Emma out on at least one occassion that we know of while he was in town to go riding and such. She also stated that she corresponded with him quite often. Emma didn't seem to have a problem with him. So I tend to agree with the idea that Lizzie was somehow behind him staying in the attic room instead of the guest room. But why if this was true didn't she protest this time? I'm also thinking of the door that was kept locked between the guest room and Lizzie's room. Who had access to the key?

[Harry]

I think you have it pretty right on, sguthmann. Morse probably didn't spend much time in the room during the day when he was there for that year. He's an ants in his pants type of person, always doing something.

[Allen]

I think you have it pretty right on, sguthmann. Morse probably didn't spend much time in the room during the day when he was there for that year. He's an ants in his pants type of person, always doing something.

I agree with that Harry. It seems like he was always on the go visiting someone or attending to some sort of errand. It doesn't seem like he was the kind to just sit around the house. In that respect I think he and Andrew had a lot in common.

[Kat]

When Morse stayed a year, it seems reasonable to have him in the attic area. Because he was a bachelor, and used to ordering his own life, and who knows- keeping odd hours maybe even, and coming and going when he liked?
It tied up the guest room and the sewing machine for too long to have him stay in the guest chamber.

He may have preferred the attic. I doubt he cared much where he slept or how nice the accommodations. He probably had slept out under trees in his life.

Also- there is the point of which stairs he'd be using for a year. He gets up early like the older folks, and Emma and Lizzie do not. He would disturb them. He could come down as early as Bridget, use the *necessary* and sit and talk to Andrew until breakfast. I think his hours would coincide more with Bridget's and Andrew's and Abby's- and he'd probably use the side door for going and coming.
I wonder if he always kept a key?
Especially for a year.

[Ad]

I agree Kat, It would make more sense for Uncle John to stay in the back half of the house. His times table would be a lot closer to the parents.

He is a farmer-camper-cowboy-outdoorsy kind of guy. He certainly wouldn’t give a hoot about all the frills and finery of the guest bedroom, especially if he was staying for an extended period. Privacy would be what he would want. In the back door, up the stairs and into his own room.

I’m still trying to figure out why he would show up without as much as a toothbrush!!

Alice moving from the master bedroom to Emma’s room makes no sense to me at all.
If the door from Lizzie’s room and the master bedroom had not been opened after the murders, I could see why Alice would want to move; to be closer to Lizzie. But with the door opened between the two rooms, I don’t see what she accomplished. If you take a look at the floor plans the distance isn’t that much different.

She was spooked by something more than a shillelagh under the bed, me thinks!!!
But what; I don’t know.

[Allen]

Could she have thought that this weapon was in some way connected to the murders at first?

[Kat]

I think she might have, because she said she thought it implicated her. Which doesn't sound reasonable. She knows she didn't kill the Bordens. Maybe she means that she thinks it was put there on purpose to implicate her?

[Kat]

So now Morse probably has a key or keys to the side door, yes?

[Allen]

So now Morse probably has a key or keys to the side door, yes?

If he does, why doesn't he use them? He still comes to the door and waits to be let in. I'm not sure whether Morse would rate a key to the side door, since Bridget states in testimony that Abby got her key to the side door around the same time she got hers.

[Harry]

The police didn't think much of the stick/club that was discovered by Alice beneath the Borden's bed. From the trial, p1133, Hilliard is being questioned by Robinson:

"Q. You said you looked at the bed. Will you tell the jury how much you looked at it?
A. Well, the bed in Miss Lizzie's room---
Q. No, in Mr. and Mrs. Borden's room first?
A. Oh, that bed there?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, all I did there was to look under the bed and at the head of the bed where something that was handed into my possession was said to have come from.
Q. Have you that something now?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, that is nothing but a stick, is it?
A. That is all, sir.
Q. You have not produced it at all?
A. No, it is here.
Q. You do not attach any importance to it, the district attorney says, at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, then we will not follow that stick. And you looked under the bed and looked under the head of the bed, I think you said?"

It probably wasn't much of a stick but the real questions to Hillard should have been: "How was it missed during the searches? Did you pursue who might have put it there?, etc." I'm sure we could think of quite a few more.

There is another stick, a mysterious yardstick, said to have been by Mrs. Borden's body which only Hilliard was questioned on.

[Ad]

Harry,
Where would I find information on this yardstick by Mrs. Borden's body??

[Harry]

The first mention I found of it was in the August 5th Boston Globe.

"The room was in complete order, with no signs of any pronounced resistance. The bed was neatly made, the dressing case, washbowl stand and chairs being all in their places, all betokening a tidy housewife. The only thing not in its place was a yard stick, which lay beside the woman, perhaps hastily clutched for defence."

Early reports in the newspapers were very often incorrect, especially those of the first few days. This one has some truth in it as there was a yardstick in the room.

The yard stick surfaces again at the Preliminary hearing (p197) when Hilliard is testifying:

"Q. Have you told me everything that was found in that room where she was?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was not there a yard stick found there?
A. I do not know whether there was a yard stick found there.
Q. Do you know anything about that?
A. Do I know anything about a yard stick having been found there, no sir.
Q. Near her feet, partly under the bed, on the floor.
A. No Sir.
Q. Never have seen any?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you see it?
A. I saw it in that room.
Q. When did you see it?
A. I saw it that day.
Q. Where was it when you saw it?
A. I could not tell you. I asked for a yard stick, and a yard stick was brought to me.
Q. Who brought it to you?
A. I could not tell you that.
Q. You do not know whether the yard stick was there at the time when her body was there, or not?
A. No Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton) When did you call for the yard stick, the first or second view?
A. The second time I went up stairs.
Q. You asked for it for some purpose connected with the view?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did any person go out of the room for it?
A. I do not know."

Here the subject of the yard stick ends and they go into a discussion of the chairs in the room.

Hilliard's testimony is confusing. First he doesn't know about a yard stick, then he asked for one but doesn't know where it came from or who brought it. He also doesn't know whether it was there at the time the body was there.

I would assume he would have wanted a yard stick to measure the distance between the dresser and bed. But then how do we explain why Keiran had to take that measurement again. Here's his trial testimony (p111):

"Q. Were you requested to take measurements by Dr. Dolan, the medical examiner, or Mr. Hilliard, of the distance between the bureau and the bed at any time?
A. I was.
Q. How soon after the tragedy?
A. I went there at Dr. Dolan's request on the 16th of August.
Q. Do you know whether the bed and the bureau were adjusted in their positions at that time for you to take measurements by Mr. Hilliard or by Dr. Dolan?
A. I do not.
Q. What was the distance at the time you took those measurements at Dr. Dolan's or Mr. Hilliard's request, of the bureau from the bed?
A. (Referring to memorandum) Thirty-four inches."

That's it. Nothing that I could find anywhere else.

It all doesn't mean much and it's just one of those little small things in the case that surface and then disappear.

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If I recall the bed in the quest room had been moved by the 16th of August. Didn't they move it to get a better photo of Mrs. Borden? They may have moved it again somewhat when the carpet sample was taken.

In today's world that house would have been locked down and EVERYTHING searched, logged and then processed!! But then we probably would have this forum.....

Thanks for the info

[Smudgeman]

it sounds like someone brought him the yardstick to measure things in the room, but then he sounds defensive like maybe the yardstick was at the crime scene? He doesn't know whether is was already in the room, because furniture was moved, the crime scene was comprimised.

What really bothers me about this case is that everyone who testifies is so vague and give answers like "I could not tell you that", or "I do not know", "As nearly as I know", etc.... it drives me crazy, somebody knew something and won't talk! Now that I got that off my chest, the yardstick could have been in the room to use for sewing, no?

[Harry]

Sewing could definitely have been a reason a yardstick was there. Hilliard's testimony, is as you say, confusing and incomplete.

The newspaper article seems to have had the condition of the room fairly accurate which would indicate some one close to the scene gave it to them.

[nbcatlover]

As a aside, I'd like to comment on Uncle John sans suitcase. Most people did not bathe their entire bodies daily in this period. If they did, it was a sponge bath (watch the Kelly McGinnis washing scene in Witness). Most men wore longjohns which served both as underwear and sleepwear. Most wore the same longjohns for several days to a week at a time (I believe it was Robert Duvall running around in red longjohns in Lonesome Dove).

http://user.mc.net/~slothrop/MENS.htm
As the above ad reminded me, longjohns were also referred to as union suits.

[Kat]

So now Morse probably has a key or keys to the side door, yes?

If he does, why doesn't he use them? He still comes to the door and waits to be let in. I'm not sure whether Morse would rate a key to the side door, since Bridget states in testimony that Abby got her key to the side door around the same time she got hers.

Well, methinks that if he is going to be there a year, he's going to have a key. I think he waits to be let in when he is merely dropping by and people are home.
Maybe they changed the lock after he left, engenering a new key for Abby?
Can you give the context of Abby getting the side door key- I think I remember it.