A question on Emma being away

[Lizthemadcow]

I just recently read a book I borrowed from the library entitled "Lizzie: The Story of Lizzie Borden," by Frank Spiering. In it he contends that while Lizzie was trying to poisen the Bordens, hence the prussic acid incident, and the family being sick, Emma got a coach from somewhere, snuck to the house, whereupon Lizzie let her in and stood by while Emma hacked the parents to death. I don't really buy his story considering that he had nothing in the way of evidence, and that he also presented circumstance as fact when it was only his personal speculation, he did bring up a good point, which I felt worthy of mentioning. I was also wondering if anyone has information to discredit his statement. He stated that although Emma had been in Fairhaven, no one had questioned the people she had been staying with as to whether they had seen her or not on the morning of the murders. He said Emma got a carriage and rode to Fall River early in the morning so no one would see her. I'm not familiar with the area, as I haven't ever been to MA. Would that have been possible for her to do? Would she have time to get back to Fall River, hack Andrew and Abby to death, and then get back to Fairhaven before anyone realized she was gone, let alone probably taking their carriage with her? It just doesn't seem plausible to me.

Also, as this is my first post, I would like to say hi to everyone. I've been a member for a few months now, but I've just been lurking.

[FairhavenGuy]

Hi and welcome.

As I s'pose you know from my name, I'm from Fairhaven. We're roughly 15 miles away from Fall River, but back then travel times were slower.

Emma says she was in Fairhaven at the Delano/Brownell house when Dr. Bowen's telegraph arrived, which I think it's safe to say would have been shortly before noon.

Mrs. Brownell was interviewed later by a New Bedford Standard reporter. She wasn't asked "was Emma there, in your sight, all morning," but she doesn't say anything that would lead one to believe Emma had gone missing. There's no clear yes or no answer here, though.

Still, Emma didn't leave for home until the 3:40 train from New Bedford, and we've never figured out to our satisfaction what the heck took her so long to get moving.

In theory, absolutely yes, Emma could have gone from Fairhaven to Fall River and back on the morning of August 4th. What is difficult to accept is that she killed Andrew between 10:45 and 11:05 and made it back to Fairhaven in time to get Bowen's telegram. It could be done, but it would have to have been a very fast trip.

If, however, one wishes to speculate that Emma was not at 19 Green Street, Fairhaven, when the telegram arrived, that that's the reason she got such a late start back to Fall River, and that Mrs. Brownell helped cover for her absence, there's more wiggle room for Emma.

[Lizthemadcow]

Thanks for filling me in a little. Even with the information you provided, it still seems a highly unlikely theory. I wonder how long it took to travel 15 miles in 1892?

[FairhavenGuy]

Travel speed in 1892 is hard to figure because there were so many variables. Paved or unpaved roads. Mud. Heavily populated urban area or rural road.

I understand that in the days before lots of power transportation, when people walked more frequently for much longer distances, they walked a lot faster than we do today. In some instances people on foot could get places faster than people driving a horse and wagon. On foot a person walking from Fairhaven to Fall River would have taken maybe three to four hours at four to five miles an hour.

It seems to have taken about an hour to get from New Bedford to Fall River by train, given there were perhaps a couple of stops along the way. (Then you had to get from the station to your actual destination.)

The electric trolley route to Fall River wasn't completed until after the Borden trial in 1893. There would have been many more stops for the trolley than for the train, though, so the trip wasn't any faster.

By horse you could get there quicker, but with a carriage you'd be slowed up in the city. Either way, you'd probably be taking a route similar to the present Route 6, so you'd have some congestion passing through downtown New Bedford, then pretty much a country road through to Fall River, then the congestion of the city again.

Today, in a car using Interstate 195, I could probably get from the center of Fairhaven to the Borden House in 20 to 25 minutes without breaking any major traffic laws and taking a few stop lights into consideration.

[1bigsteve]

I have often thought this very same thing myself, Elizabeth since reading that book. But after hearing Fairhaven's comments I now highly doubt she could have done the deed. But, that long delay between the telegram and the 3:40 train ride still has me wondering if maybe Emma did not actually get the telegram when it arived. Maybe someone else in the house actually recieved it and Emma saw it later in the day when she got back from a, say, shopping trip (or back from Fall River).

So, you have been lurking around the forum, eh Elizabeth? Well, that explains that breath I have been feeling on the back of my neck as I dig through the archives late at night. I thought it was a burgler. I was about to scream!

Welcome aboard Elizabeth. I hope you enjoy the ride. Have fun!

-1bigsteve (o:

[Allen]

When I try to think about what took Emma so long to get home, I always remember nothing could really be done quickly back then. If she had to pack, was she using those huge traveling trunks, or was a smaller type of baggage used? If she planned to stay as long as was stated I don't think she exactly brought a small overnight type bag with her and that is all. Did she have to pack those big voluminous dresses, shoes, undergarments, stockings, nightgowns, perhaps things like fans, and toiletries into those big old trunks? Next who would move those trunks or baggage from the house, to the carriage, to the station? She was staying with elderly people who I can't see as being able to move any of those things. Who helped her move her baggage after she had reached Fall River? Where did it go after she came in the house? How did it get in the house?

Next what exactly did the telegram say? Did it simply say 'Father is very sick, please come home?' Dr. Bowen was asked to word it carefully. Bridget stated in her testimony that she said she wished she knew where Mrs. Whitehead lived so she could go and see if Mrs. Borden was there and tell her that Andrew was very sick. Is this all Emma was told?

[Lizthemadcow]

So, you have been lurking around the forum, eh Elizabeth? Well, that explains that breath I have been feeling on the back of my neck as I dig through the archives late at night. I thought it was a burgler. I was about to scream!

Welcome aboard Elizabeth. I hope you enjoy the ride. Have fun!

-1bigsteve (o:

Thank you very much! Though I have been quiet, I have found this forum very informative, and love reading the different ideas that are tossed about.

[1bigsteve]

When I try to think about what took Emma so long to get home, I always remember nothing could really be done quickly back then. If she had to pack, was she using those huge traveling trunks, or was a smaller type of baggage used? If she planned to stay as long as was stated I don't think she exactly brought a small overnight type bag with her and that is all. Did she have to pack those big voluminous dresses, shoes, undergarments, stockings, nightgowns, perhaps things like fans, and toiletries into those big old trunks? Next who would move those trunks or baggage from the house, to the carriage, to the station? She was staying with elderly people who I can't see as being able to move any of those things. Who helped her move her baggage after she had reached Fall River? Where did it go after she came in the house? How did it get in the house?

Next what exactly did the telegram say? Did it simply say 'Father is very sick, please come home?' Dr. Bowen was asked to word it carefully. Bridget stated in her testimony that she said she wished she knew where Mrs. Whitehead lived so she could go and see if Mrs. Borden was there and tell her that Andrew was very sick. Is this all Emma was told?

Now that I think about it, Allen, I think you may be right. I had forgotten things moved much slower in those days. It would have taken longer to pack and get a slow ride to the train station. That, combined with the possible "lack of emergency" in the telegram, may have given Emma the impression that she didn't have to kill herself getting back to Fall River.

Dr. Bowen may have worded the telegram in such a way as to spare Emma a sudden, massive shock. "Please return home stop Your Father is ill" sounds better than, say, "Your Father has been murdered stop Return home." I assume Dr. Bowen worded the telegram to spare Emma any sudden shock.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Lizthemadcow]

I found this in the archives under the "Let's Dissect Arnold R. Brown" thread posted by Susan, and thought it rather pertinent to this conversation. Susan, where did you get this information? I've never heard it before, and if it's true would totally disprove the whole Emma did it theory.

"Those who were at the Brownell cottage with Emma were questioned mercilessly by the police and interviewed to the point of harassment by newspaper reporters. The Brownells were unanimous and unequivocal in their confirmation of Emma's presence in Fairhaven at the time of the murders. In spite of this fully substantiated testimony, some accounts of the Borden murders insist that Emma was guilty of the crime."

[FairhavenGuy]

Lizthemadcow,

That quote is actually by Arnold Brown himself in his book. Brown distorted facts and even made up a few. It should be treated as fiction unless there's primary source evidence of its truth.

[Lizthemadcow]

Ahhh, yes. He's infamous for that, isn't he? Thanks for clarifying that for me.

[Kat]

Spiering did it too- to a degree.

Hi Lizthemadcow!

[Kat]

I couldn't find Mrs. Brownell in the papers verifying Emma's attendance at the Delano house on Thursday. I couldn't find her even being asked about Emma's whereabouts on any day during her visit there.
Mrs. Brownell was asked about Emma receiving letters, and about one letter in particular. If Mrs. Brownell really replied, the papers have her saying she didn't recall such a letter. That was the 25th and Helen was not at home to answer personally.

I checked The Providence Journal, The Fall River Globe dates Aug. 4-11, The Evening Standard and the Boston Globe.
Maybe The NYTimes has something?
I thought the house at Green Street was asked about Emma's stay, but I'm not finding it in these papers I just specified.

Here is the context. I thought it was referring to Lizzie having written Emma about a man she had seen loitering about the premises, but I can't substantiate that. Maybe I'm missing a page of the E.S.?

Evening Standard
Thursday, August 25, 1892 Page 8

From Yesterdays Third Edition.

LIZZIE BORDEN'S LETTER.

Emma Friends in Fairhaven
Seen This Afternoon.

Mrs. Allen Brownell No Recollection
of the Circumstance Related.

The Missive May Have Been Shown
to Her Daughter.

Immediately upon the receipt of news from the Standard's special correspondent in Fall River in relation to the singular experience of Lizzie Borden as related by her at the inquest, given on the first page, a Standard reporter called at the residence of Mrs. Allen Brownell on Green street in Fairhaven, where Emma Borden was on a visit to Miss Helen Brownell, a daughter of Mrs. Brownell above named. Unfortunately Miss Brownell was not in town, and when the newspaper man stated that he had called for the purpose of ascertaining as to the truth of the alleged statement of Miss Borden that she had shown such a letter to her friends in Fairhaven, Mrs. Brownell said she could not say whether she had or not. She certainly had not shown such a letter to her, and she could not say whether Emma had shown such a letter to her daughter or not. She remembered that Miss Borden had had several letters during her visit, but could not remember whether she received one the day previous to the murder or not.

When asked if her daughter would not have been likely to have mentioned the fact if such a letter had been shown, Mrs. Brownell replied, "Yes, I think she would."

In speaking of the tragedy, Mrs. Brownell did not hesitate to speak strongly in support of Lizzie's innocence. She said that both of the girls always spoke in endearing terms of their father. Emma, she stated, had intended to remain in Fairhaven all Summer.

[FairhavenGuy]

What Kat just posted above is all I have ever seen about anyone in Fairhaven being interviewed.

That's not to say there weren't other interviews by reporters or police officers, but no other record seems to exist.

This is why I think Brown's decription of police and reporters badgering them is an exaggeration.

[Jan]

I'm about halfway through Spiering's book and have to say I can't buy his theory at all. For one thing, he has her leave Fairhaven (which I believe is about 15 miles from Fall River) about 7 am and arrives in FR in time to murder Abby and her father by 11 am and then returns to Fairhaven in time to catch the 3.40 pm train to Fall River. Even if she had been able to accomplish this, it just beggars belief that she was able to drive through her home town without anyone recognising her. Besides, although she disliked Abby and had the motive for murder, I just can't see her doing it. By all accounts she was a small, self-effacing person totally dominated by her younger sister and I doubt if she would have the strength to wield the axe. What do other people think?

[Kat]

I think a horse and buggy could go about 8 miles an hour, making it about a 2 hour trip one way. But then what does Emma do with the horse? After a 2 hour run, the animal needs to be cooled off, and watered. Where does she keep it? Someone in cahoots with a stable nearby?
She could be the short man Dr. Handy saw -the one with the pallor (Called The Wild-eyed man). It was someone he thought he knew but could not put a name to the face. A woman dressed as a man might trick the eye to the point that Dr. Handy was tricked. He may have realized later and ended up not identifying anyone as the *man* he says he saw.

[Yooper]

I think it would require a focused and deliberate person to take a two hour buggy ride for the sole purpose of murdering her parents. She would not have known for certain where anyone would be at the time of day the murders occurred. It would make more sense to kill them in bed if Emma had to travel for two hours. The murders seem to have occurred when the least number of people were present which is a different perspective entirely.

Many of the books published about the case include complicated conspiracies of some sort. These tend to fall apart in court when there are several people lying and they can't keep track of what was said. They also run the risk of someone breaking under pressure. The simplest solution is usually the correct one. If it is impossible for Lizzie to have done it alone, then she had help, even if only after the fact. Who provides the simplest solution at the least possible risk?

[snokkums]

I have read that book to by Spiering, and think that most of his theories are just about that theories. Although I do believe had something to do with the murders, or at least some knowledge of them.
She doesnt' strike me as the innocent bystander. Besides, she is alot more intelligent than lizzie was.
I think there is some conection, just haven't figured it out yet. She just seems alittle to smart not to know something was going on.

[1bigsteve]

If Emma did arrive in horse and buggy, what did she do with it during the 2 hour interval? Leave the horse and buggy out front for the whole world to notice? I just don't put much faith in Emma's guilt. Unless someone dropped her off and returned for her 2 hours later. But, then how did she know her father would be home by 11:00 instead of his usual later arrival? What would she have told the driver? "Pick me up at noon" when in fact she needed to get out of there an hour earlier? How was the driver to know to pick her up, after he left the Bordens, at 11:00 instead of the agreed 12:00ish? Once he left the Bordens Emma had no way of contacting him. It's not like they had two-way radios.

Pointing the finger at Emma just opens up more questions, I feel.

-1bigsteve (o:

[snokkums]

I think Emma is alot more intelligent than we give her credit for. If she did have anything to do with the murder she wasn't going to leave anything or a trace to lead back to her. She was a bit more intelligent than Lizzie.

[1bigsteve]

I think Emma is alot more intelligent than we give her credit for. If she did have anything to do with the murder she wasn't going to leave anything or a trace to lead back to her. She was a bit more intelligent than Lizzie.

I think you are right, Snokks. I think Emma was thinking while others were sleeping. It's the quite ones you have to worry about. But then I doubt Lizzie was a "dumb sister." There was something going on in their heads. "You wack 'em out, I'll keep my trap shut and we'll split the money. Do you know how to use that thing?"

I don't think Emma came back to commit the crimes but I have always thought it strange that Uncle Morse came over at the same time Emma left Fall River, which was almost unheard of. She never left. So I feel that these two events had something to do with the crimes. Of course it may have just been an opportunity the killer took advantage of "on the fly."

There is something here we are just not seeing yet.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Yooper]

Is there any record of Emma's first reaction(s) upon hearing the news? I wonder how the telegram which Dr. Bowen sent read. It might or might not have prepared her to a degree.