Lizzie as a wife and home maker

[snokkums]

Does anybody have any kind of idea of how Lizzie would have faired as a wife, mother and and stay at home person?

[nbcatlover]

Some kids would love her--she likes animals, wouldn't make them eat mutton and would feed them, instead, cookies and pears.

She'd let some minor teen infraction like shoplifting slide, and if they wanted to quit school without graduating, she'd let them.

Then she'd probably take the kid to Europe for the summer.

[Allen]

I don't know, maybe Lizzie was afraid her children would grow up and maybe have an axe to grind with her? Ok, bad joke but I couldn't resist. We've talked about this before, I think.

Well, from the way she seems to have treated her own parents, I'd say she wouldn't have made a very good one herself. She then proceeded to successfully drive her own sister off for good. She couldn't even have a good sustained relationship with any of her own family members. I think that says a lot.

I can't see how the way she treated her 'friends' would be any indication of how she would've been as a wife and mother. You don't put your friends to bed at night ,or read them bedtime stories, or change their diapers. You don't have to live with your friends day in and day out, let them have the run of your property and estate, or let them tell you what to do. You see your friends when you want to, and you can send your friends home.

I don't see how the way she treated her pets would be any indication either, for most of the same reasons as seen above for friends. Animals also can't talk back, they don't voice opinions, or want money.

I also just can't see Lizzie putting anybody else or their needs ahead of her own.

[theebmonique]

I think if she treated animals well it could very well be an indication of how she may have been as a mother.

Animals...domesticated ones such a cats and dogs anyway, do indeed react to the kindness and the touch of humans. Granted, they may not vocalize their feelings the same way we do, but they do express themselves or "talk". I know when my dogs are glad to see me. I know when they "serious" bark, that there is someone walking near the house that they don't know.

I am one who believes animals do feel...and think. I realize that it's not at the same level as humans, but...it happens. I think maybe Lizzie found acceptance from animals that she could not get from her human counterparts. Animals are so much more accepting than we are. When I would take my dog to school, she would always ended up hanging with some of the kids who really needed that acceptance and companionship. She seemed to "know" that.

I think Lizzie may have been a more kind and gentle mother than we think.


Tracy...

[Audrey]

It is really hard to tell...

Seriously.. I was (?) a spoiled, arrogant débutante *itch and having children really changed me.....

[Kat]

You could try this info on Personology:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Diversion ... ens.htm#lb

I know someone who has Lizzie's birthday.
I can't compare them tho, because they are of different ethnicities and different centuries.

[DWilly]

Does anybody have any kind of idea of how Lizzie would have faired as a wife, mother and and stay at home person?

As a wife I doubt she would have done very well. I think she would have only married because that's what society wanted her to do and she felt pressured to get married. In time she would have become one more lesbian wife whose husband would have complained about her being cold and unloving. Then he would have gone out and got a mistress.

As for kids I don't know. She was nice to both boys and girls but there's a big difference between being nice to a neighbors child and having your own.

In the end, I think if she had wanted a husband and kids she would have done it. I think when you get right down to it she didn't want to get married.

[nbcatlover]

And no one's answered the question of her pets. Did they die natural deaths and then she had them buried in their special plot? Or did she put them down because she knew she was dying?

It would tell us alot about her relationship with "loved" ones.

[Haulover]

i don't say this to put down pets. i have one myself, in fact. but i do not believe that an individual's devotion to an animal translates into the true maternal instinct. i speak from experience with an individual who believed her cat was divine and wise--while at the same time, harboring a secret hatred for the human race. i'm not saying this need go so far -- but it is a phenomenon we can't ignore. people find solace in pets or animals for a number of reasons. animals seem to function largely on what we would call a psychic level--but one without the ability of judgment-- they seem to soak up and reflect the vibes around them...but the meaning of this is buried in mystery. a gentle animal can snap and kill a child for no reason. we don't understand this. i don't think animals have reason and judgment -- they tap into things with a sensitive instinct, yes - but they do not have the ability or responsibility for the moral world. i would go a step further in saying that they do not have the same value as does a human being -- regardless of how appealing they may be. a human being is an unfinished work in progress with all sorts of potential for good or evil. an animal is limited, in comparison, by definition. this is my judgment with a full awareness of how awful a human being can be, because i also know that a human being can be wonderful to the point of defying all "definitions." we are ambiguous, brilliant, and insane. a person can build a concentration camp, and he can also paint the sistine ceiling; he can be a serial killer, and he can also devote himself to virtue. an animal cannot do these things. i don't like the idea of annointing animals with virtues. a virtue is not a mere innocence but a conscious effort. i don't like to see these issues confused philosophically because animals can be loveable. this is my judgment, anyway, for what it's worth -- and i can't escape judgment because it comes with the human territory. my cat does not wrestle with good and evil. but i do, everyday. my cat cannot even write a one-page review of a bad book for The Hatchet. she can rub up against me and curl up in my lap and anticipate my movements through the house, but i'm not that impressed because of the complexities i have hanging over me every day. i don't mean to say bad things about animals. i'm trying to make a realistic point -- not against anyone for their feelings -- but i think it's a point worth making because i perceive so much confusion about this these days when so many of us are coping with forms of loneliness or despair.

[Kat]

That's very well-put, Eugene.

Cynthia, may I ask what it tell us about Lizzie to know whether she had her pets put down because she was going to die and did die?
I mean, it's a great question- but what would the meaning be? Can anyone figure this out?

[Audrey]

I do agree that how Lizzie treated her pets is not indicative of her general character, however-- Lizzie may have been a genuinly nice and considerate person--and be a murderer.

With that said, I do not think she was a very nice person!

Lizzie conducted herself pretty well after the trial. She moved to a nicer house, but who wouldn't? She enjoyed her wealth, but who wouldn't?

I do not think Lizzie was a sociopath like, say, Betty Broderick or Diane Downs.

[Angel]

I agree with Audrey. I don't think she was sociopathic either, but I don't think she was very nice. From what can be gathered of what people said about her, she appeared to have alot of issues. I personally think there is an incest thing from her past that caused her to be the repressed way she was, but, even without that, she had a crummy background- losing her mother, being tended to by an older, uptight sister with neurotic resentments of her own, having to deal with whatever tensions Abby may have caused, having a penurious and humorless father,being isolated from the world, living in a constrictive Victorian society, etc. She was thought to be odd, sullen at times, sporadically eruptive, "manly" in appearance, withdrawn, etc. Whatever social grace she exhibited probably happened after she lived on her own and was free to pursue her interests.

[nbcatlover]

Kat--it's one thing to have a pet put down if it is sick and suffering. It is another kind of person who would have her pets put to sleep (i.e. kills them) because she is going to die and feels no one else should have them. The second view is autocratic, controlling, and selfish, from my perspective. She has the power of life and death (the way a killer would think).

Since she had money to give to pet charities, she could have easily added a clause to care for her own animals for the balance of their lives.

The implication has always been, to me, that her dogs were all buried at the same time. I personally have always thought Lizzie was an accomplice after the fact. Knowing she would destroy healthy animals because they were her possessions might convince me that she was the killer. I'm struggling for insight to her character.

Abusing one's animals is frequently the sign of other types of abuse, as in child abuse, domestic violence. If power and control were her motivations, she would cut off her child without a second thought, if they did not obey her. Of course, most abusers suffered the same kind of abuse themselves.

[DWilly]

On pages 357 and 358, Rebello has information as well as a photo of the grave site of the three dogs: Donald Stuart, Royal Nelson and Laddie Miller. Lizzie purchased the lots in 1927. However, the dogs were not buried there until a year later. The info on the registration card reads:

Miss E. A. 306 French St. Fall River. Mass

11-15-28, Dog Sec 7Lot, Dog Sec. 7 Dogs Sec 7 Lot.

It looks to me like the dogs were buried in November of 1928. I assume someone had them. Lizzie may have known she was dying and left the dogs in someone else's care. At the same time she may have purchased the lots so when they did die they'd have a place to be buried. I wonder who was taking care of the dogs? I wonder if Lizzie left them is someone's care and that person just got tired of taking care of them? It would have been a mean thing to do.

[Audrey]

Maybe they were buried somewhere else... Like her garden or yard at MC and she had them dug up and moved...

Was this pet cemetery always available?

We have left behind many pets who died in places we have moved from and were buried in the backyard.

Pet cremation has become very common and this is what we did with Heidi, my darling miniature dachshund who died last autumn.

It is worthy to note that while many people are good to animals and not to people there are just as many who are very kind to people and not to pets.

Question... If a person's fondness for animals is non-indicative of their feelings and treatment towards people, is someone who abuses animals also exempt from this?

Sure, I will hear that Hitler loved dogs and maybe even see that dreadful photo again....

But the simple truth is that something can be brought up or a link can be posted to back up nearly any idea or opinion.

Psychology, like medicine is a practice not an exact science. Little direct knowledge exists of Lizzie's interactions with others... People who knew her or met her have a wide variety of things to say about her. Some said she was kind, generous, and nice. Still others said negative things about her-- Much like just about anyone else in the world.

[Kat]

Very very interesting you guys!
Thanks for the comments!

Were pet owners into this *putting to sleep* stuff so much back then?
I do recall the incidence of Lizzie and the cat and the chloroform.
But maybe views were different then?
Do the statements you made stand, Cynthia, the test of time, do you think? I'm really wondering.

(Your explanation of your thoughts was well done).

I know that in the earliest days of formation, Fall River applied funds from the budget to form a sort of Animal Control. That was because of dangerous dogs roaming around and threat of disease. It was practical.
I'm wondering if disposing of pets upon ones death was considered practical?
One thing I have a hard time with is equating how people thought back then, to how people think nowadays.

(Edit: Audrey- we passed in the night. I was wondering the same thing, too, as to when the pet cemetaery became available- that maybe Lizzie's pets were moved there...).

[theebmonique]

Maybe they were buried somewhere else... Like her garden or yard at MC and she had them dug up and moved...

Was this pet cemetery always available?

We have left behind many pets who died in places we have moved from and were buried in the backyard.

Pet cremation has become very common and this is what we did with Heidi, my darling miniature dachshund who died last autumn.

It is worthy to note that while many people are good to animals and not to people there are just as many who are very kind to people and not to pets.

Question... If a person's fondness for animals is non-indicative of their feelings and treatment towards people, is someone who abuses animals also exempt from this?

Sure, I will hear that Hitler loved dogs and maybe even see that dreadful photo again....

But the simple truth is that something can be brought up or a link can be posted to back up nearly any idea or opinion.

Psychology, like medicine is a practice not an exact science. Little direct knowledge exists of Lizzie's interactions with others... People who knew her or met her have a wide variety of things to say about her. Some said she was kind, generous, and nice. Still others said negative things about her-- Much like just about anyone else in the world.

Yes...very well said Auds. I had my dog cremated as well. I also wish we could know more about the personal side of Lizze, but as others have said, I too am afraid we will only be able to surmise through our own interpretations. Lizzie will be, in our minds, what we want her to be.


Tracy...

[Audrey]

Yes...very well said Auds. I had my dog cremated as well. I also wish we could know more about the personal side of Lizze, but as others have said, I too am afraid we will only be able to surmise through our own interpretations. Lizzie will be, in our minds, what we want her to be.


Tracy...

(bold mine)

Exactly.....

[Harry]

In the January 1993 issue of the former Lizzie Borden Quarterly, Ed Thibault wrote a great article on the burial site of Lizzie's dogs. Here are some extracts. Forgive me if my typing is bad as my eyes are still bothering me. Thank goodness for spell checkers.

"One of the more intriguing facts about Lizzie Borden was that she was an animal lover and I had once heard that she buried her pets in a local pet cemetery. Since I knew of none in the immediate Fall River area, I sought the aid of a friend in locating one. A phone call to Pine Ridge cemetery in Dedham, Mass. assured us that, indeed, Lizzie had a burial lot for her animals there.
........
After a brief exchange of questions and answers, Mr. Thomas [cemetery superintendent] produced the only recorded document concerning the Borden lot. It was a 3 x 5 unruled index card with handwriting which appeared to have been written with an old style pen and ink. It read:

BORDEN, Miss E. A., 306 French St.,Fall River, MASS.
11-15-28 DOG SEC 7 LOT
DOGS SEC 7 LOT"

Ed called attention to the fact that Lizzie's initial on the cards reads "E" and not "L" and surmises that the cemetery may have thought her real name was Elizabeth.

The thing that stands out though is the date of the first entry 11-15-28 which is more than a year after Lizzie's death. Ed also calls attention to the fact that the first and second entries are written in two differnt color inks which would indicate separate times. Since the second entry is after the dated one it would be even later than 1928.

From all this I think the dogs or least some of them survived Lizzie. The stone lists 4 dogs and if this surmise is correct then she may have left instructions for their burials.

It's a very interesting article by Ed and worth digging out the 1993 issue from your archives.

[Allen]

Thanks for the information, Harry. I guess we can safely say that Lizzie did not have her dogs put down. I am curious now, however, as to who did have care of the dogs until their ultimate burial in the cemetery. I would think with all the emphasis put on what an animal lover Lizzie was some record of this would've been ferreted out years ago.

[Susan]

Yes, thank you, Harry for finding that old article. I love reading things like that that either will confirm or dispel some of the Lizzie myths.

[Harry]

There are 3 dogs buried in the plot and what is interesting about that are the entries on the cemetery card.

The first entry is singular "dog", while the second entry is plural "dogs".

That would say one dog was buried and then two more at a later date. All would have been buried in 1928 or later after Lizzie had passed on.

All 3 dog's names appear on the stone. This could mean Lizzie had the stone prepared in advance or the names were added as they died.

I could see the animal shelter taking and tending to the dogs after Lizzie's death and upon their death burying them according to her instructions. That's the least they could have done for Lizzie's sizable contribution in her will.

[theebmonique]

I just saw a show on Animal Planet called Animal Planet Report(It should repeat a few times over the weekend). One of the stories on this show was about a study done by Dr. Marc Bekoff/University of Colorado-Boulder. He spoke of how animals having feelings, emotions, and knowing right from wrong. Granted some of animal's 'knowing' is not on the level of human beings, but his reserach really leads credence to what some of us think/feel about animals and how they think/feel.

http://literati.net/Bekoff/


Tracy...

[Kat]

I could see the animal shelter taking and tending to the dogs after Lizzie's death and upon their death burying them according to her instructions. That's the least they could have done for Lizzie's sizable contribution in her will.

--Harry

This makes sense. In a publication called "Our Fourfooted Friends", Spring, 1980, I believe to be sponsered by the ARL, an excerpt of "Pine Ridge Cemetery For Small Animals--A Haven of Happy Memories", pg. 8:
"Located in Dedham, Mass., Pine Ridge is the oldest animal cemetery in the nation operated by a humane protective association."

[Allen]

In Lizzie's Probate Records it does show some sort of activities concerning the the Animal Rescue League. Maybe someone else might be able to explain what they mean?

In: Lizzie Borden's Probate Records

Under: Schedule B
Showing payments, charges, losses and distributions.

I found these items number 40 and 51.

40 Animal Rescue League 3.00

51 Animal Rescue League, Stevens Mfg. Co. dividends 516.00

[Smudgeman]

Animals give us unconditional love. I have always had dogs as a boy and still do now. My parents were divorced when I was 16, and my eldest sister died the same year. My whole world came crashing down around me, and my beloved dog was there by my side. My first dog was Pudgy, she was a Springer Spaniel ,then Buff - he was the runt of Pudgie's litter, then Callie, the sweetest most loyal Chow Chow I have ever known, and now I have a Border Collie and a Terrier mix - Sophie and Sammie. My dogs were and are my hope and salvation. I can sit and talk to them and they listen and they love me no matter what. But they are very much in tune to what my mood is, they can tell if I am upset, angry, sad, etc...
I can imagine Lizzie found comfort with her animals, she certainly didn't have family to talk to. Sometimes your pets ARE your family.

[theebmonique]

Amen Scott...Amen.


Tracy...

[Harry]

In Lizzie's Probate Records it does show some sort of activities concerning the the Animal Rescue League. Maybe someone else might be able to explain what they mean?
In: Lizzie Borden's Probate Records Under: Schedule B
Showing payments, charges, losses and distributions. I found these items number 40 and 51.

40 Animal Rescue League 3.00

51 Animal Rescue League, Stevens Mfg. Co. dividends 516.00

Lizzie's Will left the Animal Shelter stock in the Stevens Mfg Co, worth $18,060. She also left them paid dividends of $516 and apparently unpaid dividends of an additional $1,548.

These dividends would say she was getting a very healthy return on her stock holdings in Stevens of 11.4% (ie: 2,048/18,060). You won't find too many stocks today that yield those kind of returns on dividends. A very wise investment indeed!

[Allen]

Thanks for explaining that Harry. Well it definitely seems like the Animal Shelter was well provided for in her will.

[Haulover]

Per Kat:
****That's very well-put, Eugene.

Cynthia, may I ask what it tell us about Lizzie to know whether she had her pets put down because she was going to die and did die?
I mean, it's a great question- but what would the meaning be? Can anyone figure this out?****
__________________________

this brings to mind a caller on the dr laura show a few years ago when i listened to it sometimes. laura did not try to draw it out, but brought an end to it with: "You've got some sick thinking going on there, lady."

anyway, the call: this young lady calls, very emotional in tears, asking advice for what to do about the guilt she was feeling. she had a cat she had loved more than anything -- but she had to move into another apartment that would not accept pets. now here's the clincher -- this girl had a friend who offered to take the cat, but the girl could not bring herself to accept this option. why? because the girl was afraid that the cat would think that she (the girl) had "left her." so rather than live with having to think that the cat would be forever hurt at her (the girl) for having abandoned her (the cat) -- the girl had the cat destroyed. hence, the girl's present grief. in effect, she had attempted to escape a form of shame.

i guess that's not that different from v. lincoln's explanation for lizzie's slaughter of her father, actually.