Lizzie's Inquest

[Haulover]

this is one of the first of the oddities in lizzie's inquest. (the talk of morse's visits falls in between.) this is the talk about a hostile visitor:

Q. Do you know of anybody that your father was on bad terms with?
A. There was a man that came there that he had trouble with, I don't know who the man was.
Q. When?
A. I cannot locate the time exactly. It was within two weeks. That is I don't know the date or day of the month.

later the same day of questioning:

Q. Had there been anybody else around the house that week, or premises?
A. No one that I know of, except the man that called to see him on this business about the store.
Q. Was that that week?
A. Yes sir.
Q. I misunderstood you probably, I thought you said a week or two before.
A. No, I said that week. There was a man came the week before and gave up some keys, and I took them.

__________________

secondarily she says the man her father had trouble with was that week (more recent) and that more distantly (two weeks before) she accepted some keys from (a different?) man?

i wonder about the significance of someone turning in their keys and her taking them. why does "within two weeks" become "that week" -- and more, a distinction between a man who turned in keys and the man her father had trouble with? 1st she says the troublesome man was within two weeks; then she says the man two weeks ago was someone turning in his keys.

(is this actually innocuous or is she already manipulating facts?)

[Audrey]

Do you really think she was manipulating the facts or just plain dim and easily tripped up?

[Kat]

I'm thoroughly confused. So when that happens with testimony, I usually go back to the source and read everything in context- which I will do.

But.
Meanwhile, remember, Lizzie was away from the 21st of July until the 26th- and that Emma was gone from the 21st as well, which was exactly 14 days (2 weeks) before the 3rd of August. That's convenient.
That is also the period of time that Lizzie claims she saw the prowler.

Also, whatever Lizzie's intent in her meaning- the man who came that week was Clegg.

[Kat]

I've looked at Lizzie's inquest testimony concerning the "man" and come to find out there are 4 men, maybe 5!

One was the "I would like to have that store" man (49)

"A man came the week before and gave up some keys." (57)

"That week" (Knowlton)/Lizzie responds "the man that came to see him about this business about the store." (57) and Witness Statements (2) Lizzie identifies a man as coming that morning:

"A man came here this morning (Aug. 4) about nine o'clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English."

The last 2 men could be the same- Clegg. But that was 2 different visits.

As I noted earlier, Lizzie was gone from the 21st of July to the 26th, so the first 2 men had to come between July 26 and July 30th, if we discount business meetings on a Sunday the 31st.
Then the week of the murder Lizzie mentions 2 men who came who may be the same.
She also tells about a prowler- a man- during the time her sister was away- but that would be between the 26th and the 30th as well- so there are 3 men in that time period and now 5 total who came there to her house.
Also, we see by her testimony that she still thinks it's been 2 weeks her sister has been gone- so that time period seems to be impressed on her mind- the 26th to the 30th. It's a possibility Lizzie was away also on Saturday, July 30th, but that doesn't mean she would have missed someone coming to the house during that day- she may have left after that during another part of the day.
(Bridget was asked 2x at Prelim., p54. if Lizzie went away the Saturday before the tragedy).

Inquest
Lizzie
91:
A. No, sir; I don't. I saw somebody run around the house once before last winter.
Q. One thing at a time. Do you recollect about how long ago that last occurrence was?
A. It was after my sister went away. She has been away two weeks today, so it must have been within two weeks.
Q. Two weeks today? Or two weeks at the time of the murder?
A. Is not today Thursday?
Q. Yes, but I thought you said she was gone two weeks the day of the murder?
A. Is not today Thursday?
Q. Yes, but that would be three weeks. I thought you said the day your father was murdered she had been away just two weeks?
A. Yes, she had.
Q. Then it would be three weeks today your sister went away, a week has elapsed?
A. Yes, it would be three weeks.
Q. You mean it was sometime within the two weeks that your sister was away?
A. Yes. I had forgotten that a whole week had passed since the affair.

[lydiapinkham]

Thanks for the calendar, Kat!

--Lyddie

[Kat]

I read Lizzie's inquest testimony, made the comparison between men, looked at the Witness Statements, took notes, compiled all the men into a cohesive timeline and found 4 to 5 men. That took my morning- tho I enjoyed it. Then I scanned the calendar so the points I was making would seem more easily and readily viewed and all you wanted was a calendar!
Well!

I really think that is funny- I am tickled and thank you for thanking me, Mary!
I loved the calendar when I first got it from Stefani and I use it constantly.

[Haulover]

i appreciate your work on this. this is one of i think several examples where there is a "running issue" where you can't go line by line but you must "jump."

i'm still puzzled by lizzie's distinction between "within 2 weeks" and "that week" (murder week). lizzie herself was only home for one week before the murders, right? she herself was never actually at home within two weeks before the murders, right? i did wonder if she could be making a distinction between something that happened just before she left in the first place -- as opposed to when she returned.

i see she creates a confusion by apparently being confused that at the time she is being questioned a week has passed since the murders -- making 3 weeks what she wants to call 2 weeks.

she nevertheless seems to understand that when she says "2 weeks" she is thinking in terms of 2 weeks before the murders.

now take another look at this one:

A. About two weeks ago --
Q. Was you going to tell the occurrence about the man that called at the house?
A. No, sir. It was after my sister went away. I came home from Miss Russell's one night, and as I came up, I always glanced towards the side door as I came along by the carriage way, I saw a shadow on the side steps. I did not stop walking, but I walked slower. Somebody ran down the steps, around the east end of the house. I thought it was a man, beause I saw no skirts, and I was frightened, and of course I did not go around to see. I hurried in the front door as fast as I could and locked it.
Q. What time of night was that?
A. I think about quarter of 9; it was not after 9 o'clock anyway.
Q. Do you remember what night that was?
A. No, sir; I don't. I saw somebody run around the house once before last winter.

________

OBSERVATION:

coming back from a visit with miss russell at about 9 p.m. sounds exactly like what she did wednesday night before the thursday morning murders. (this was something of a habit, anyway? i'm not sure.)

then i thought to check the likely route she would have taken home from miss russells, who was on borden st. bt. 3rd and 4th. wondering if lizzie would have approached the house from the south or the north -- meaning whether she would have seen the side steps at all in approaching the house. indeed borden st is north. but lizzie's distance home from miss russell's would have been almost exactly the same if she had walked south down third and approached 92 second st. from the south -- or if she had walked west on borden st, turned south on second, and approached the house from the north. (i wanted to be as sure as possible as to how lizzie would return to 92 second from miss russells, and therefore the likelihood of lizzie's observing the side steps on the north end of the house -- but i see that is inconclusive. but it was fun to trace and imagine which way i would have gone. i would have walked down borden street and turned south on 2nd.)

but i can't remember how alice went when she got the news (i had the idea that alice approached the borden house from the south, but now i don't know).

[Kat]

I hadn't thought there were that many men callers or prowelers until your post made me go look.

Also, I think I usually pictured Alice rushing over from the South.
But apparently, according to Sawyer, they both approached from downhill-up- toward the south from the north:

CHARLES S. SAWYER
136
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What is your name?
A. Charles S. Sawyer.
Q. Where do you live?
A. At 78 Second Street.
Q. How far is that from the Borden House?
A. The third house.
Q. The third house south?
A. The third house north.
Q. This way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. On the same side of the street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were you acquainted with Mr. Borden?
A. Yes Sir I knew him, not intimately; I had had some business with him.
Q. Did you visit the family?
A. No Sir, I was not in the habit. I have been there in the house. I used to go there once in a while to make some little purchases in vinegar and stuff.
Q. You were not a calling acquaintance of the family?
A. No Sir.
Q. What was the first you saw that attracted your attention with reference to this matter?
A. I was in the machine shop opposite where I live, and a gentleman came in there, a drummer from Providence, and he reported that a man named Borden just above here had been stabbed. I started out to make some inquiries, and as I stood talking with three gentlemen at the foot of the stairs, this was up stairs, I saw Miss Alice Russell going up on the other side of the street. Knowing that she had been a near neighbor, and quite intimate with the girls, of course I went over to inquire if she had heard. She told me yes she had heard, and was going right up there; so I followed along to see if I could get any particulars about it. I went as far as the gate. She did not seem to be very talkative, but considerably excited