I was reading through the ONline Resources on this site and got to thinking about something I read.
Lizzie called for Bridget to go get the doctor. It says: "When Bridget hurried downstairs, and she found Lizzie standing at the back door. Lizzie stopped her from going into the sitting room saying don't go in there Go and get the doctor. Run.
Bridget ran across the street to the family doctor, but he was out and she told Mrs. Bowen Mr. Borden was dead. She ran back to the house and LIzzie told her to get Mrs Alice Russell.
Why didn't Lizzie tell Bridget to get the police? That makes more sense to me.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
That's a question which springs instantly to most minds, especially as the police station was not much further than Alice Russell's house considering the layout of the streets in 1892, not currently.
Most guests who visit the house ask why Lizzie did not just take the 10 steps from the sofa to the front door and yell bloody murder to Second Street in general. With all the traffic going by , it would have been an effective way of getting instant help.
Those who believe Alice Russell was "prepped" the night before on the poison -something-is-going-to-happen notion, will say Alice was sent for because Lizzie wanted to be sure Alice spilled that story right away to the police. And then, Alice had been a neighbor for a very long time next door, so maybe Lizzie wanted a lady friend in the crisis. You can make a case for either.
It is pretty simple. Put yourself in the same situation today. What do you do first? You hope, even if it seems unlikely, that the person is still alive. Timeing is important. You call 911, and do you first ask the operator to send the police? No you don't, you ask for an Ambulance first. When we listen to 911 recordings on TV usually what we hear is "My Husband's been shot, send an Ambulance." Lizzie knew that Dr Bowen lived across the street. Besides that the Bordens had no phone and I am not sure what the ambulance situation was in 1892.
What is a Picture, but the capture of a moment in time.
I think if I walked into my house and found a family member in Andrews condition, my first response would probably be "I need a doctor!!" I think once it was established that the person was dead, calling the police would be the next step. But for the initial reaction, calling the doctor would be my choice.
Oh I think getting Bowen was a likely and reasonable thought- as Lizzie said he was cut in the face and did not know the extent of Andrew's wounds. I wonder why, though, she did not go into the room and make certain he was alive. Were it a loved one of mine- you can bet I would rush in and check for signs of breathing, maybe even try to find a pulse.
The choice of Alice is strange-what would a spinster do to help Andrew's situation? Sure, many people do not think logically under stress, but I would imagine most Victorian women would have looked for male assistance in this type of crisis and a call from the front door would have brought men running to the scene. A possible murderer could have been roaming the house, or a burglar- Father gravely wounded, if not dead- no, Alice would not have been the first to come to my mind.
I can understand calling for Dr. Bowen first, that makes sense, but it never seemed to occur to Lizzie that the police should be informed. None of the testimony indicates that Lizzie even asked if someone else had notified the police.
I wonder if there is a hierarchy chart available anywhere which might outline an ordinary thought pattern for people under severe stress, what needs would occur to them immediately post-trauma, if that can be boiled down to a predictable progression. My own instinct might well be to send for medical help first, but then I would want the .... responsible for the event as a close second consideration. I don't know whether summoning a friend for support, even to supplant an absent sister, might occur.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
I think Shelley made a really good point. If you see someone you love hurt the first thing people ususally do is run to their side to check for any sign of conciousness, then call an ambulance. Seeing the doctors house was right across the street, you would think she would go running and yelling her head off for help. (or even stay by his side yelling for help) If there was such a bond between father & daughter why didn't she check him out first. From personal experience, when my dad laid down one day and I heard him making chocking sounds I ran to him, called an ambulance then WOULD NOT leave his side until help came. When it's someone you love, you don't care about anything being gross ( blood etc) all you want is somebody to help.
In all fairness, nobody else seemed to think of the police right away, either. A bystander was the first to think of it early on,and perhaps the police were there by the time it occurred to everyone. Mrs. Bowen was the third person to be aware of Andrew's murder and she didn't think of it.
Yes, I would have made Bridget sit with my father while I rushed out into the street to get Bowen, or yell for help. For those who believe Lizzie killed them, perhaps she sent Bridget out quickly because she needed some time to clean up something or hide something.
When Bridget came back and Lizzie sent her to Alice's- she did not tell Bridget which house number was Alice's which was odd. Why should Lizzie assume Bridget knew which house was Alice's? And Bridget did not know and wasted more time finding out. I also would have sent for Kelly or Chagnon when Bowen was unavailable- who cares what kind of doctor when one's father lay dying?
Wasn't Addie Churchill right on top of things? I thought her dash across the street to get Bowles was right on the money- and then dispatching Cunningham to ring up the police at the nearest phone made sense. I thought Addie was most practical under the circumstances. Bridget also could have been sent to a telephone instead of Alice's. I would bet there was a phone at Hall's stable and livery or the NY-Boston Dispatch across the street. I wonder why Cunningham went to Gorman's paint and paper.
We need a 1892 FR telephone directory to see who was on line and closest.
I would have thought Dr. Bowen might have had a telephone. If so, why didn't Phebe ring for help?
I wonder how things would have went for Lizzie, if instead of yelling for Bridget from the back door, she'd have gone on in to her father and held him? Or got his blood on her, it would have gotten Bridget out of the house, she (Lizzie) wouldn't have had to worry about cleaning herself up, and possibly looked more like a loving daughter should have looked. It would even explain her confusion. And she still would have had those few minutes while Bridget was gone to do what ever it was she wanted to do, before everyone got there.
That's true, but Bridget could have come through the door anytime, the way she did it, lizzie controlled when she came down. And knew positively she'd have a few minutes.
This is my first responce after observing for a while, so please bear with me. Could Lizzie not have called on the police because it was a class & sexist issue. Could it have been instinctively not the thing for a woman of her class and sex not to even think of asking the police to enter into her father's home. In the 21st century we immediately think of calling the police, but in the late 19th century weren't most of the police Irish mere servants in the upperclass mind? Thanks and please be gentle!
Bob
And what is "curiouser" still- with Bridget gone for help- why did Lizzie not go back to her father? She testifies she never went into the room at all. Instead, she stands in front of the sinkroom by the side door. If she really thought her father was alive, she would hardly have left him to die alone. The door was open, and Bridget could easily have brought Dr. Bowen inside. No, I am pretty convinced she knew he was good and dead when she called Bridget down. Her behavior was not that of a loving daughter- or she would not have behaved in such a cold, unfeeling manner.
That's an interesting thought. I don't think Lizzie was particularly class conscience at least not outwardly. I don't believe she had any Irish friends at least as far as I can recall. Second Street, itself, was a decidedly mixed neighborhood with Irish families and businesses at the time of the murders. There were even 2 Irish police officers living on Second, Patrick Gillan at #140 and John Lenehan at #221.
I think it comes down to what Lizzie thought was the condition of her father. Unfortunately she gives two different versions of what she said to Bridget.
John Fleet's notes (page 2) from the Witness Statements has Lizzie saying this to him:
“I was ironing handkerchiefs in the Dining room, which I left and went in the barn, up stairs, and remained there for half an hour. Bridget had gone up stairs, and when I came back I found father dead on the lounge, and went to the back stairs and called Bridget (servant) down stairs. Told her that some one had killed father, and told her to get Dr. Bowen.”
At the Inquest she stated something completely different (page 78+):
Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.
Q. Did you notice that he had been cut?
A. Yes; that is what made me afraid. Q. Did you notice that he was dead?
A. I did not know whether he was or not.
---------------------------------------------
Q. Who did you send Maggie for?
A. Dr. Bowen. She came back and said Dr. Bowen was not there. Q. What did you tell Maggie?
A. I told her he was hurt.
Q. When you first told her?
A. I says "Go for Dr. Bowen as soon as you can, I think father is hurt."
Q. Did you then know that he was dead?
A. No, sir.
Q. You saw him?
A. Yes sir."
Bridget is very clear in that she said her father was dead. Bridget at the Preliminary (page 27):
"Q. You were still lying on the bed---
A. Yes Sir.
Q. --- when she called to you. What did she say?
A. She holloed to me. Of course I knew something was the matter, she holloed so loud. I asked her what was the matter. She said “come down quick”, that her father was dead."
At the Trial (page 240) Bridget is even more specific:
"Q. What is the next that occurred as you were lying upon the bed?
A. Miss Lizzie hollered, "Maggie, come down!" I said, "What is the matter?" She says, "Come down quick; father's dead: somebody come in and killed him."
I think if Lizzie thought he was only injured she'd want a doctor first and then the police.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
Well, I think Lizzie knew a doctor was not going to resurrect the dead. She probably knew Andrew was dead before she cried out to Bridget. She didn't want anyone else to discover him before she did, otherwise she would have to explain how she was in almost everyone of those rooms in the house and never saw a thing. She needed Bridget to leave for a bit to do something! I truly believe once she knew Andrew was dead, she went into panic mode and assumed the role of Lizbeth. The devoted daughter that could never imagine anything like this could happen to her. I don't trust her.
Or maybe, she wanted a doctor to confirm that he was really dead, and did not want to go back in that room to see for herself.
"I'd luv to kiss ya, but I just washed my hair"
Bette Davis
Coming upon AJB like that, I suppose calling first for the Dr is explainable...but what I cannot understand is Lizzie sending Bridget for Alice Russell?
What other possible explaination could there be for that errand than, as someone posted before, because she knew Alice was already "prepped" with the info she wanted her to know and would recall Lizzie's prophetic words to the police as soon as she was questioned? I mean even as friends go, I understood that Lizzie and Alice weren't terribly close...in fact, I think it was Emma who was the closer of the Borden girls with Alice?
So why call for Alice, if not for the reason given, especially when there was female companionship nearer to the residence (ie, Mrs Churchill, who concern leads to her to become involved in the events that day)? That is what I cannot figure out.
Another note on Dr Bowen - would/could Lizzie have known he was out and about - perhaps at the EMERY's? - at the very time he would be called for? Could she have known he was going over there to check on the mysterious niece and nephew of JV Morse, and tried to use that to her advantage as well??
Thanks for the citations Harry. One would think the pains taken to pin Lizzie down as to if she were in the kitchen or on the stairs when Andrew came home would also have been taken in determining whether or not Lizzie knew he was dead or not!
That's a pretty BIG inconsistency If she knew he was dead, then I can see why she may not have examined him further and stayed with him until help came. I suspect it was pretty clear, even just looking in from the door that he was beyond help. So, if she knew he was dead and beyond the help of a doctor, I think my next thought would be the police.With Emma away and her father dead- she was in charge of the house at that point and should not have had any qualms about sending for the police.
I don't know how Lizzie could have known Bowen's schedule, unless he told her in a note. She went up the stairs when he called on Wednesday.
Yes, Shelley, Lizzie's two different responses are just about impossible to reconcile.
Bridget's answers at the Trial agree almost exactly with Lizzie's response to Fleet in the Witness statements - he was dead and was killed.
Why Lizzie didn't rush into the room and throw herself on her father's body is a mystery to me. It would have solved any problem with blood on her and gotten rid of the problem of bloody clothing. Of course she may have done that already with the wearing of Andrew's coat. Her rushing in to check her father would have also softened people's opinion of her as it would have been the natural thing to do if she thought he was just hurt.
I can't help thinking of Bridget's reaction to both murders compared to Lizzie's. Didn't Lizzie tell her not to enter the room to see Andrew? So I assume she made some effort to do so. And she rushed into the guest room when Abby's body was seen beneath the bed. Lizzie didn't enter either room.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
Once Lizzie found Andrew, she made her way to the stairs and called Bridget. The only time she could have heard Abby return was while she was in the process of finding Andrew, and she could only have heard the side door being used. Why did Lizzie not call for Abby? Why did Lizzie not wonder how Abby could seemingly disappear? Why did it never dawn on Lizzie that she had heard an intruder leaving and had been within a few feet of being killed herself when Abby was found in the front of the house? A "normal" reaction to Abby being found in the guest room might be to sit bolt upright and faint dead away, not ask "who said that?". I would really like to know what Mrs. Bowen said which would prompt that response from Lizzie and get her sent home. Finding Abby and coming to grips with the scope of the event was an epiphany for almost everyone present, it seemed to be a pivotal point.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
I expect it is a natural response to want to go see for oneself- and probably Bridget was acting automatically in starting to go look at Andrew before Lizzie channelled her out the side door to get Bowen. I always loved Mrs. Churchill's response when Bowen asked her if she would like to see ANdrew- "Oh no, I saw him this morning and he looked so nice"- yes, I can see how the gruesome sight would not be one most people would want to view if they had time to consider it.
There's so much that makes NO sense about this case, and the point you make, Yooper, is one of those "itchy" things which does not add up. When, indeed, could Lizzie have heard Abby come in? There were so many questions unasked which should have been asked. Why Lizzie was not challenged more about her "half-hour" in the barn is a mystery to me too- it would have been impossible for her to have been in the barn that long. Medley and Moody keep me from thowing up my hands in despair utterly -so many seemed to be taking a vacation from plain common sense.
Do you suppose one reason for not getting the police was that Lizzie was aware they were on a policemans picnic at Rocky Ford?
Unlikely, but thought I would throw it out there!!!
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Oh, I expect she knew about the picnic. I imagine it was in the newspapers, but she would also know that the station house and beat cops were still around. Every thief in town would have had a field day if it was put out that there would be no police protection in town on that day.
Living in the 21st century, we are exposed to murder and all kinds of violence every day of our lives - we see it every time we turn on our T.V.'s, it is in the newspapers, we can even look anything, that is violence, up on the internet, and read all about it! We think nothing of seeing a person raped, beaten, killed, etc. We are hardened to effects of violence. People in the 19th century were not exposed to the violence of the world, as we, in the 21st century, are. In today's world, we teach our children how to call 911 for help, when they encounter someone who is hurt; we also teach them first aid in school and at home. People in the 19th century did not have the conveniences of picking up a phone to call 911 and have help arrive within minutes, nor, do I believe, did they have the knowledge of first aid treatment that we do today.
I have a feeling that the women in Andrew household were not allowed to have much of a say in anything, except perhaps Abby on a very small scale. Lizzie had always had Emma to protect her, to confide in, and guide her through life, therefore, I think Lizzie led a very shelter life. On August 4th, Emma was not anywhere around to advise Lizzie as to what kind of action to take. I think the women of Lizzie's time were extremely dependent on the man of the household; it seems to me that women were not allowed, or ever taught, to think for themselves. Given the situation that Lizzie was faced with, on August 4th, I think she was forced into taking control of the entire situation and therefore had to make decisions for herself. I think that Lizzie was a much stronger and independent woman than we have been led to believe.
It makes no difference whether Lizzie, or an intruder, was the one who swung the death weapon; I really don't think that Lizzie knew for sure if Andrew was actually dead or just badly injured. If Andrew was indeed still alive, then running out on the street screaming bloody murder to obtain any man's attention could have been a waste to precious time, when the person who was really needed would be a doctor. I think that sending Bridget for Dr. Bowen, first, was the appropriate course of action for her to take, at that point in time. After all, his house was just across the street, wasn't it? Dr. Bowen was, most likely, a man Lizzie felt comfortable confiding in, and he would know what to do.
I do not think that the bond between Lizzie and her father, was the extremely strong bond that we are led to believe. From what we know of Lizzie's life, her actions and lack of emotions tell me that she did not love her father in the manner in which we have been led to believe. She displayed absolutely no loving actions or emotions, whatsoever; all of her actions and emotions were extremely unloving and cold-hearted - she did not go back into the room to check for signs of life, she did not appear at all upset, she did not shed a tear, etc, etc, etc. I think that Andrew felt a much stronger love for Lizzie than she ever felt for him. The ring that Andrew wore on his pinky finger may have been nothing more than a pleasant memory, for Andrew, of a time when Lizzie displayed a single act of love toward him.
The fact that Lizzie sent Bridget for Dr. Bowen rather than going herself seems to distance Lizzie from the event to a degree. She is less a victim and more a manipulator for it.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
While it is true many women who lived at home unmarried, or were docile wives, yielded to the kingpin- the man of the house, there were some plenty gutsy gals too. No doubt about that. Widows, orphaned ladies, spinsters by choice, mill workers and laborers who had to work to live, and some strong-willed sufragette types were amazingly resilient, savvy and took charge of their own destiny. I see both Alice Russell and Addie Churchill as resourceful, competent women. I love that Addie let rooms out to supplement her widow's portion. Necessity is often the key to finding one's own inner strength.
Yooper @ Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:16 am wrote:The fact that Lizzie sent Bridget for Dr. Bowen rather than going herself seems to distance Lizzie from the event to a degree. She is less a victim and more a manipulator for it.
You are absolutely right. I think Lizzie was a first rate manipulator; the inconsistencies of her 'story' shows this loud and clear.
The suggestion to Bridget that she go down to the sale at Sargeant's shows her talent at maneuvering people around to suit her purposes. I wonder if Lizzie did not encourage or suggest Emma's visit to Fairhaven. I always wished we had known more about how all of that came about.
That was about the time when women began speaking out against the role of "submissive female". They realized they had the strength and fortitude to lead their own lives and wanted that recognized.
Lizzie seemed to be uninterested in getting herself, Bridget, or Abby, whom she had supposedly just heard return, out of harm's way. In fact, she waited for Bridget, and Abby or whomever she thought she heard at the back door within the narrow confines of the rear hallway. At that point, she supposedly didn't know who was responsible for the murder.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Yes, if she had truly heard Abby come in- and she was innocent of the murder, wow- she just let Abby go right up into a possible dangerous situation. Maybe she thought if Bridget had been upstairs in back, and had not come to grief, and knowing that her father's room was locked- the back of the house was "safe". Or more likely- the Abby coming in line was a made-up crock like that note. I would have been as nervous in the back hall- how did Lizzie know there was nobody lurking in the basement waiting to flee out the side door?
I just find Lizzie's first instincts to be completely unreasonable for an innocent person. I have to make up excuses for her behavior with far-fetched possibilities and then string them together into an even less probable sequence in order to make Lizzie innocent. It boils down to: either this conjured-up half-chance-in-hell is true, or Lizzie is not innocent. If she committed the murders, then it all becomes coherent, it all fits perfectly.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Back in 1986 I met a man named Bill Rabe who lived in Mackinac Island, Michigan. He was a Sherlockian and historian of the Grand Hotel where the Somewhere in Time movie was filmed. He also started a "club" called Friends of Lizzie Borden, which may have been the first such organization about the case. With that in mind, I think, Yooper, we could begin a Foes of Lizzie club- for you are quite right, it is a major stretch to come up with ways to justify Lizzie's behavior and unbelievable testimony and statements, trying to prove her innocent, than to make a common sense approach to using the same information to find her guilty.
I really don't know what conclusion most people reach when they delve into the case, it would be interesting to take a poll. I began with the idea of "wouldn't it be great to prove Lizzie innocent?", but the more I read...
As an aside with respect to Michigan movies, the house used as Paul Biegler's (Jimmy Stewart's) office in Anatomy of a Murder has been for sale recently, it's about five blocks from my house.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Just make a list:
1. Family illness since Tuesday night, but nobody can confirm Lizzie is sick and she does not see Bowen Wed. morning when he comes over to check on the family
2. Lizzie is identified by Bence and others as having come in Wed. morning and trying to buy poison
3. Lizzie says she never left the house Wednesday until she went to Alice's
4. John arrives but Lizzie never comes down for lunch or to see her Uncle
5. Lizzie gives a titillating tale to Alice about poison, dire predictions of looming menace, etc.
6. Lizzie comes home and although she can clearly see her father from the entry and staircase, she neither says good-night nor goes in to greet her Uncle.
7. Either does eat coffee and a cookie, or eats nothing
8. Eventually says she did go back upstairs with a pile of clean laundry and was up there 5 minutes
9. Says she either saw Abby in the diningroom, or guest room last
10. Camps out in front of the stove in August reading a magazine while somehow somebody crept in the side door and got up to the guestroom without being seen, hears or sees nothing
11.Opens the stove to throw in a stick of wood to heat up flats to iron hankies, then addresses some paper wrappers for Abby (did anyone check on those I wonder)
12. Changes her mind about where she was when her father comes home- kitchen or stairs?
13. Takes her father's shoes off (so she says)and arranges him comfortably, solicitous for his welfare
14. Irons are cold, stove is out, so off to the barn to get material for sinkers, mend a screen, eat a bunch of pears, mill about in the hayloft, etc.
15. Hears a groan, a moan, a scrapping sound and comes in and puts her hat down
16. Decides she has something to ask her father, then goes to the doorway and peeps in but does not put a toe over the sill
17. Sees her father cut and wounded, eye on cheek
18 Walks 20 steps to the back staircase and calls the maid down and sends her out for the doctor
19 Stays in the back hall around the sinkroom and screen door as Bridget runs to and fro
20. Is spotted by the neighbor and told to come over saying her father is killed
21 Sends maid out again for Alice but fails to tell her the address
22 Waits while Mrs. Churchill goes across the street to summon assistance via Cunningham
23 Shoos away the ladies who attempt to loosen her dress saying "I am not faint" and suggests someone should get Winward, and asks Bowen to send a telegram to Emma
24 Suddenly recalls that she might have heard Abby come in earlier when asked about Mrs. Borden, and reprises the note story. Does not go herself to break the horrible news to Abby, but sends Bridget upstairs to find her.
25. Goes upstairs at the earliest convenience and changes her clothing, adopts the demure figure on the fainting couch with minister and doctor at the ready, has a sedative, and puts herself above the rigorous immediate searching of her person and room in so doing , having tea and toast on a tray.
26. Stays well out of the mix until 8:30 when she makes 2 trips downstairs into the cellar carrying her slop pail. Waits until Alice is bathing with the door closed to go down the front steps and again into the cellar- this time alone.
27. Attends the funeral, but not in deep mourning, nor getting down to show any grief at graveside
28. Burns a dress on Sunday, with the weak explanation that it had some paint on it even though the maid says she wore it 'round the house in the morning from time to time. Why did Emma need a hook now? Abby was dead and she would have all those hooks and room in several closets without Abby's stuff.
And I am sure there are things I have missed- yes- it is certainly easier to be a foe than a friend given her behavior. No surprises there. I agree with the cop who said "I don't like the girl"- she just did not behave as an innocent person would.
Yooper @ Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:16 am wrote:The fact that Lizzie sent Bridget for Dr. Bowen rather than going herself seems to distance Lizzie from the event to a degree. She is less a victim and more a manipulator for it.
You are absolutely right. I think Lizzie was a first rate manipulator; the inconsistencies of her 'story' shows this loud and clear.
NO, I think you are both wrong due to your prejudices.
Lizzie would send her servant, just like to see who was at the front door. That's the way it worked then, or now. You can reference some novels from the 1930s (The Big Sleep) to see how the rich sent their servants to open a door, or perform other errands.
To paraphrase an older saying: In case of an accident send for a doctor and ambulance, not a priest or minister.
Did Lizzie know that Andy was dead? Sending for a doctor says she believed him to be wounded. No doctor then could raise the dead, as far as I know.
Today, if you call 911 they will send an ambulance; the police will soon arrive as well even if it is not a stabbing or shooting. (My limited experience.)
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
Yooper @ Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:12 pm wrote:I really don't know what conclusion most people reach when they delve into the case, it would be interesting to take a poll. I began with the idea of "wouldn't it be great to prove Lizzie innocent?", but the more I read...
As an aside with respect to Michigan movies, the house used as Paul Biegler's (Jimmy Stewart's) office in Anatomy of a Murder has been for sale recently, it's about five blocks from my house.
Lizzie was proven innocent in June 1893. Is your mail slow?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
Yooper @ Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:12 pm wrote:I really don't know what conclusion most people reach when they delve into the case, it would be interesting to take a poll. I began with the idea of "wouldn't it be great to prove Lizzie innocent?", but the more I read...
As an aside with respect to Michigan movies, the house used as Paul Biegler's (Jimmy Stewart's) office in Anatomy of a Murder has been for sale recently, it's about five blocks from my house.
Lizzie was proven innocent in June 1893. Is your mail slow?
That's right, Ray, ever since we elected Benjamin Harrison I've had nothing but trouble with late mail.
Shelley @ Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:29 pm wrote:Just make a list:
...
And I am sure there are things I have missed- yes- it is certainly easier to be a foe than a friend given her behavior. No surprises there. I agree with the cop who said "I don't like the girl"- she just did not behave as an innocent person would.
I believe some of your items are not generally accepted as true.
I'll let the others comment on them.
21 Sends maid out again for Alice but fails to tell her the address
Item 21 is self-contradictory. Where would Bridget go if she didn't know the address? Isn't there more research needed on this item? Didn't Lizzie send Bridget out for Alice first? Then when Mrs. Churchill saw her standing on the back porch her manservant was sent for help?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
Shelley @ Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:29 pm wrote:Just make a list:
1. Family illness since Tuesday night, but nobody can confirm Lizzie is sick and she does not see Bowen Wed. morning when he comes over to check on the family.
DID BRIDGET EVER MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT LIZZIE BEING SICK TOO?
2. Lizzie is identified by Bence and others as having come in Wed. morning and trying to buy poison
3. Lizzie says she never left the house Wednesday until she went to Alice's.
iNTERESTING THAT SHE WOULD LEAVE THE HOUSE IF SHE WASN'T FEELING WELL. aLSO, DOES ANYONE KNOW IF SHE ROUTINELY WENT OUT AT NIGHT? i WOULDN'T THINK IN THOSE DAYS lADIES WOULD DO THAT UNACCOMPANIED, ALTHOUGH i MAY BE WRONG.
4. John arrives but Lizzie never comes down for lunch or to see her Uncle
5. Lizzie gives a titillating tale to Alice about poison, dire predictions of looming menace, etc.
6. Lizzie comes home and although she can clearly see her father from the entry and staircase, she neither says good-night nor goes in to greet her Uncle.
7. Either does eat coffee and a cookie, or eats nothing
8. Eventually says she did go back upstairs with a pile of clean laundry and was up there 5 minutes
IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO FIND OUT IF SHE HAD SEWING EQUIPMENT IN HER ROOM. IF SHE DIDN'T, THEN SHE MOST CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE HAD TO ENTER THE GUEST BEDROOM TO GET NEEDLE AND THREAD TO USE N THE TAPE SHE SAID SHE SEWED ON SOME GARMENT, AND SHE WOULD HAVE FOUND ABBY.
9. Says she either saw Abby in the diningroom, or guest room last
10. Camps out in front of the stove in August reading a magazine while somehow somebody crept in the side door and got up to the guestroom without being seen, hears or sees nothing
OBVIOUSLY, ABBY COULDN'T HAVE RETURNED AT THAT TIME IF LIZZIE'S STORY ABOUT ABBY COMING BACK WAS TRUE.
11.Opens the stove to throw in a stick of wood to heat up flats to iron hankies, then addresses some paper wrappers for Abby (did anyone check on those I wonder)
12. Changes her mind about where she was when her father comes home- kitchen or stairs?
IF ABBY HAD RETURNED AT THE TIME LIZZIE SAID SHE WAS ON THE STAIRS, THEN THE ONLY PLACE ABBY COULD GO WAS UP THE BACK STAIRS. WHY THEN WOULD LIZZIE INDICATE THAT SOMEONE LOOK UP THE FRONT STAIRS LATER?
13. Takes her father's shoes off (so she says)and arranges him comfortably, solicitous for his welfare.
YET, ACCORDING TO THE PICTURES, ANDREWS SHOES WERE ON AT THE TIME OF THE MURDER.
14. Irons are cold, stove is out, so off to the barn to get material for sinkers, mend a screen, eat a bunch of pears, mill about in the hayloft, etc.
IF SHE HAD JUST PUT MORE WOOD IN THE STOVE TO HEAT THE IRONS, WHY WOULD THE STOVE BE COLD A SHORT TIME LATER?
15. Hears a groan, a moan, a scrapping sound and comes in and puts her hat down.
NEVER MENTIONS HEARING ANYTHING LATER.
16. Decides she has something to ask her father, then goes to the doorway and peeps in but does not put a toe over the sill
17. Sees her father cut and wounded, eye on cheek
ACCORDING TO DR. BOWEN, HE SAID ANDREW'S FACE WAS SO HORRIBLY MUTILATED IT SICKENED HIM, SO I CANNOT IMAGINE THAT LIZZIE DIDN'T KNOW HER FATHER WAS DEAD.
18 Walks 20 steps to the back staircase and calls the maid down and sends her out for the doctor
WHY WOULD SHE ASSUME BRIDGET WASN'T ALSO DEAD
19 Stays in the back hall around the sinkroom and screen door as Bridget runs to and fro
ANY OTHER PERSON WOULD, AT THE LEAST, HAVE LEFT THE HOUSE AND STOOD AWAY FROM THE HOUSE WHERE ONE WOULD POSSIBLY BE SAFER FROM ANYONE WHO MIGHT STILL BE INSIDE LURKING ABOUT. SHE WOULD HAVE STILL BEEN ABLE TO WATCH THE HOUSE, IF THAT WAS HER INTENTION. BUT NO ONE INNOCENT WOULD HAVE WANTED TO PUT ONESELF IN HARM'S WAY.
20. Is spotted by the neighbor and told to come over saying her father is killed.
AGAIN, IF SHE SENT FOR THE DOCTOR BECAUSE SHE THOUGHT HER FATHER MIGHT JUST BE WOUNDED, THEN WHY WOULD SHE SAY TO THE NEIGHBOR THAT HE WAS DEAD?
21 Sends maid out again for Alice but fails to tell her the address
THIS CONFUSES ME- WOULDN'T BRIDGET KNOW WHERE ALICE LIVED, SINCE SHE HAD WORKED THERE FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS ALREADY?
22 Waits while Mrs. Churchill goes across the street to summon assistance via Cunningham
AGAIN, WHY WOULD ANY INNOCENT PERSON WAIT QUIETLY IN THE HOUSE BY HERSELF WHEN THE MOST NIGHTMARISH THING POSSIBLE HAS HAPPENED TO HER FAMILY?
23 Shoos away the ladies who attempt to loosen her dress saying "I am not faint" and suggests someone should get Winward, and asks Bowen to send a telegram to Emma
THE LAST THING ON MY MIND IF I HAD JUST LOST MY FATHER AND STEP MOTHER WOULD BE MY PREFERENCE OF FUNERAL DIRECTORS
24 Suddenly recalls that she might have heard Abby come in earlier when asked about Mrs. Borden, and reprises the note story. Does not go herself to break the horrible news to Abby, but sends Bridget upstairs to find her.
WHY WOULD SHE ASSUME ABBY WAS UP THE FRONT STAIRS?
25. Goes upstairs at the earliest convenience and changes her clothing, adopts the demure figure on the fainting couch with minister and doctor at the ready, has a sedative, and puts herself above the rigorous immediate searching of her person and room in so doing , having tea and toast on a tray.
26. Stays well out of the mix until 8:30 when she makes 2 trips downstairs into the cellar carrying her slop pail. Waits until Alice is bathing with the door closed to go down the front steps and again into the cellar- this time alone.
THERE IS NO ONE IMMEDIATELY NEAR HER TO PROTECT HER. SHE GOES INTO A DARK CELLAR BY HERSELF WHEN SOME MONSTER HAD JUST HOURS EARLIER INVADED HER HOME AND COMMITTED THE MOST GRUESOME VIOLENCE. WHAT (ESPECIALLY VICTORIAN) WOMAN WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT IF SHE WAS AN INNOCENT PARTY?
27. Attends the funeral, but not in deep mourning, nor getting down to show any grief at graveside.
28. Burns a dress on Sunday, with the weak explanation that it had some paint on it even though the maid says she wore it 'round the house in the morning from time to time. Why did Emma need a hook now? Abby was dead and she would have all those hooks and room in several closets without Abby's stuff.
ANY INNOCENT PERSON, NO MATTER HOW DENSE, WOULD HAVE REALIIZED HOW ODD THAT WOULD LOOK TO OTHERS. LIZZIE WOULD HAVE HAD TO BE DRIVEN WITH ENOUGH ANXIETY TO RISK BEING SEEN BY SOMEONE TO HAVE DONE THIS.
(I USED THE UPPER CASE LETTERS TO SET APART MY COMMENTS FROM THE ORIGINAL TEXT)
And I am sure there are things I have missed- yes- it is certainly easier to be a foe than a friend given her behavior. No surprises there. I agree with the cop who said "I don't like the girl"- she just did not behave as an innocent person would.
Yooper @ Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:16 am wrote:The fact that Lizzie sent Bridget for Dr. Bowen rather than going herself seems to distance Lizzie from the event to a degree. She is less a victim and more a manipulator for it.
You are absolutely right. I think Lizzie was a first rate manipulator; the inconsistencies of her 'story' shows this loud and clear.
NO, I think you are both wrong due to your prejudices.
Lizzie would send her servant, just like to see who was at the front door. That's the way it worked then, or now. You can reference some novels from the 1930s (The Big Sleep) to see how the rich sent their servants to open a door, or perform other errands.
To paraphrase an older saying: In case of an accident send for a doctor and ambulance, not a priest or minister.
Did Lizzie know that Andy was dead? Sending for a doctor says she believed him to be wounded. No doctor then could raise the dead, as far as I know.
Today, if you call 911 they will send an ambulance; the police will soon arrive as well even if it is not a stabbing or shooting. (My limited experience.)
This implies that if Lizzie found Andrew choking on a pear, she would call out the servants. After all, Andrew was their responsibility, not hers. RIDICULOUS! Her first instinct should have been to run for help QUICKLY, without waiting for anyone to wake up, if she thought he was alive. If she thought he was dead, her first instinct should have been to fear for her own safety and she would have gotten out of the house. I would be amazed at the presence of mind if she had even THOUGHT to call to Bridget to get her out of there!
Sorry Ray, I don't read or see your posts anymore, so I cannot respond. I am , however, very well acquainted with the social order of things, particularly in Victorian and Edwardian times. And even in those times, I believe in an extraordinary circumstance such as finding your father with half his face missing and his eye rolling out on his cheek, bleeding torrentially, I doubt any lady would stop to consider her station and decide she was above going to get help for her dying or dead father.
She told Mrs. Churchill that her father was killed, and her behavior seems to suggest she knew he was dead. Not to cross the threshold to examine him more closely says it was pretty clear the man was as dead as a doornail. To leave him oozing on the sofa with not a morsel of comfort in his last breath suggests she knew he was beyond earthly ministrations. The bit about not going into the room came out later, when she thought somehow that saying that she never went near the body or even into the room was a good thing to say- to keep herself right away from that corpse. Did anyone ever ask her what it was she was going in to ask her father ? If she knew he was resting, I would think she would not have wanted to disturb him. The case, I still think, could have been solved with the right questions being asked soon after the deeds, and with the most basic of common sense.
Alice Russell had lived, for I believe 11 years, in the Kelly house but had moved . No, Bridget was not sure which of those houses was Alice's and had to get directions. Lizzie did not give her the house number or any further directions. Bridget had only a general idea of where to go. She also did not know how to get to the Whitehead's. Bridget also (in those days) had to run down the end of Second, up Pleasant and down Third to get to Alice's. It took much longer than today with the new street configuration, it is just around the corner.
I don't think any two people handle emotions and shock the same way. Why for example, that men can carry such hurt and remain stoic, even if it's eating them alive inside, and it's never said of them that they are cold. or unloving or unfeeling, they are said to be strong and brave. One reason, is because, it's expected of them, and they are taught to be that way. All of Lizzies friends said that she acted just as they would expect her to act under those circumstances.......I wish they would have elaborated on that more. If her friends thought that her behavior was, for her, normal, then you have to ask yourself, why? How did she get that way, was she taught? No one has questioned Emma's behavior, did she break down, cry, faint at the sight of her father lying dead in a horrific manner? Did she go to him to touch his brow, or hand? Coming home and finding her father being autopsied on her diningroom table should have evoked some hysteria...one would think, but her actions or lack of them are excused or passed over because she had an air tight alibi. My point...........two women raised in the same house showing (or not showing) their emotions and appearing cold and aloof. The difference one thought innocent, the other thought to be guilty, but yet their actions were about the same.
A couple of remarks on points others have noted as far as Lizzie's reactions go. To paraphrase:
1. "Lizzie acted suspiciously by remaining in the house while Bridget went for help."
I can say from personal knowledge that people do not always act "logically" in situations of great shock. Case in point - local girl is viciously murdered in her apt. Roomate comes home and discovers the horrible scene. Roomate calls for help, while remaining in the apt, even though the killer could still be there too. She has no way to know, but in her state of shock, she doesn't think about this possibility, she just concentrates on getting help. While talking to the 911 operator, she is advised to immediately leave the apt (i.e. the killer may still be inside). Taken as a single fact, one cannot conclude with certainty that this behavior is indicative of guilt; it's as probable (if not more so) that this behavior could be the result of great shock.
2. "Lizzie acted suspiciously in that she did not display the appropriate or normal emotions one would expect from the death of her father and stepmother."
Again, I have to take exception to this logic taken as a single fact. Criminal profiling experts stress not to put store in what outsiders (ourselves included) might think is an "appropriate" display of grief. The key is not in how much or how little they display their emotions, but instead the key is to take the behavior in context: is this reaction normal for that particular person? I believe that there is enough information about Lizzie pre-murders that prove she was viewed as generally a pretty "unemotional" person. Persons who were aquianted with Lizzie, both favorably and unfavorably, noted that Lizzie was a stoic individual, not given to being open with her emotions. Now consider her reactions on Aug 4 1892 and afterwards - you must admit, they are in keeping with what is generally known to be her "normal" behavior. It may seem odd to us, but it was how she was naturally. Again taken singularly, this observation that her lack of emotion somehow supported her being involved in the murders doesn't hold water.
I was reading through the ONline Resources on this site and got to thinking about something I read.
