Susan, I Found It! What's been moved...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:39 am

Actually, I stumbled across it.
This may be something nobody remembers.
I was trying to find where I read that the covers of the guest room bed had been disturbed- pulled down and then up again, before the pictures were taken on Thursday.
This was from like a year ago or 2 years ago.

Preliminary (New Consolidated Version)
Dolan
Page 91 (187)

A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was the bed moved?
A. No Sir, not for the first photograph*; it was moved afterwards.
Q. Before the first photograph was taken, was the bed moved?
A. No Sir.
Q. Had anything on the bed been changed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What?
A. The covering and shams; the bed had been searched.
Q. Before the photographer came, had anything on the bed been disturbed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What?
A. The covering of the bed; the bed itself had been thoroughly searched.
Q. That is to say, it had all been removed?
A. No Sir.
Q. It had to be lifted up, and unmade, the mattresses, &c?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who made it up again for the purposes of this picture?
A. The clothes were thrown back, I do not know who did that.
Q. Done by a man’s hand?
A. It evidently was.
Q. Then it did not look as it did before?
A. No Sir.
Q. Then in this photograph the appearance of the bed is not the same as it was at the time of the murder?
A. The bed clothing is not the same.
Q. Do you know what became of the sham that had the blood spots on?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was not taken?
A. Not by me.
Q. That was not taken in the picture?
A. Yes Sir, the pillow sham is taken in the picture.
Q. The very pillow sham?
A. Yes.
.....

--And yet, AHA! The bed Had been moved:

Prelim
Doherty
305 (330)
*A. On the bed. I wanted to examine the woman, but there was not room between the bed and dressing case to walk. I walked back to the foot of the bed, up around the north side of the bed, and I pulled it out about three feet, away from her.
Q. Towards the street?
A. No, pulled it against the north wall, away from her head.
Q. So to make the space between the bed and the dressing case, wider?
A. Yes. I pulled it away, and I went in, and I stopped down and I saw that she was lying in a pool of thick black blood, and her head was all cut.

--I think he means the south wall?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:01 pm

Kat,

You are right, I would think he would have to had meant the south wall. I wonder if he had help moving the bed out ?...moving it back ? Sure seems like a lot of the evidence was very "contaminated".

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:23 pm

Yes, this is for those who ask how much credence can be put into the crime scene photos. I know Bob-O should be saying "I knew that!"

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:58 am

Thank you for finding that, Kat! I recall there was an issue with Kieran's measurements of the furniture in the guest room as the bed had been moved back and forth. It would have been wonderful to have crime scene photos of the rooms before anything had been touched.

Was there some sort of indication that the bed clothes had been disturbed that made the police believe a weapon had been secreted there? Makes me wonder what kind of evidence may have been disturbed by the police moving the covers and shams on the bed. Was there maybe a handprint as someone leaned on the bed as they struck at Abby's head? Could a wiped down hatchet been put down on the bed somewhere for a few moments and left an imprint?

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:24 pm

I did just kind of think, "See?"

I was just talking to someone about the case Friday, and I referred her to this site, of course, but I warned her that the photos were not of "uncontaminated" crime scenes.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:25 pm

Finding this testimony has had me thinking in a new way about the murder of Abby. We wonder if the assailant was bloodied, why nothing seems disturbed, etc.
What if the attack came from over the bed?
That the person stood or knelt there and hit Abby in the face and then laid down on their stomach on the bed with their arms over the side to hack away at her? This would shield the person's clothing from spatter and then there is not much concern over the amount of room there was between the bed and the bureau to mount and sustain an attack.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:12 pm

Thats an interesting idea. I think the assailant would have had to have been a man, I just tried it out. I could only freely swing my left arm to get at an imaginary head on the side of the bed and usually when I do my imaginary hatchet swinging, its with both hands. Then, wouldn't there be more evidence of the hatchet strikes coming from left to right. From Dr. Draper's Trial testimony I found that the wound in Abby's back was thought to have come from the left to right.

But, then theres this bit: Page 1075

Q. Well, taking the injuries all together, or the marks or appearances upon the skull of Mrs. Borden, did they not show, either some or all of them, that a portion of them were given by a blow from left to right, and another portion from right to left?

A. My study of them indicate that they were all given from right to left.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:20 pm

ok...I have an idea, but first I need to make sure I understand this right. If Dr. Draper testifies that the wounds are from right to left, does that mean the "cuts" on Abby's head are horizontal rather than vertical ?

Tracy...

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:45 pm

OK, I am an idiot. I get the right to left thing now. I re-read the autopsy report on Abby, and it seems there were some vertical cuts on top of her head. The wounds on the front of her head were the cause of death right ? Could some of those wounds come from her hitting her head on the headboard or footboard as she fell due to an initial blow ? If the attacker as Kat says, came from over the bed, once Abby had fallen to the floor, used one-handed swings..inflicting the less pentrating wounds, then switched to a two-handed method to inflict the rest of them ? Plus, if the attacker was lying across the bed while swinging, this would have protected them from splatter as Kat also stated, right ? OK, let me know if I am a total idiot...

Tracy...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:47 pm

TheeB, from the autopsy picture of the back of Abby's shaved head, it looks as though the cuts run willy-nilly, some at an angle, some vertical, some even horizontal. Dr. Draper describes in his testimony how he came to the conclusion that the blows came from the right to the left, where the hatchet first cut or struck the skull, there was a beveled clean cut on the right hand side. On the opposite side of the cut in the skull there was chipping. I think basically that the outcome of all that he is saying is that the killer was right handed, much more difficult to strike with the right hand a left to right blow. Not impossible, I don't think, just more difficult.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:08 pm

OK, now I am wondering if the attacker started out lying across the bed then moved to more of a length-wise position ? I agree with the "right-handedness", but I am doubting that a man could swing at a body that many times with just one hand, let alone a woman trying it. I think there probably had to be some two-handed swings of the weapon ?

Tracy...

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:17 pm

AND...if the attacker was lying on the bed, that would make for no bloody footprints leaving the scene and for not much blood, if any on their clothing ?

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:35 am

That was one of the things which propelled me to wonder if the killer was on the bed. No bloody footprints- exactly!
(Probably barefoot tho- shoes might have left marks.)
I don't find too much problem with the attack (thanks for experimenting Susan!)- but would the person on the bed end up outlined in blood drops? Maybe if they didn't raise the hatchet over their head... and all the blood spatter was found down low...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:23 pm

I'm thinking if the hatchet dripped or blood flew off the head of it while striking in the lying down position on the bed, the killers upper back would get spattered. Then theres the possibility of blood spattering towards the door of the guest room, not alot, but a few drops like the ones found on the doors in the sitting room.

I still find it amazing with that small space that Abby was killed in, that nothing else in the area got struck by accident with the hatchet and that there was so little blood in the area excepting the pool on the carpet.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:31 pm

I agree, Susan. There is very little blood--little enough to make one wonder if the first stroke was a death blow, so the other blows simply splashed blood from that first strike. If the first blow was a skull crusher, as some suggested at the time, that might account for it. I always imagine terrific pent-up anger throughout the attack.

--Lyddie

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:14 am

This may be a bit of rambling but...I think the idea of the first blow (or two) on the front of the head being the cause of death is extremely likely. After the strike, Abby would have fallen to the floor and the blood would have bled out slowly from those wounds (dead...no blood pressure) and pooled around her head. Then maybe the attacker thought she wasn't really dead and decided to finish her off from across/on the bed because there was not much room between the bed and the dressing table. But they were somehow distracted and didn't whack at the back and the top of her head until after the blood from the first wounds had all drained out and clotted. This is when either the anger came out, or it was the inconvenient (lack of good "axe-swinging" leverage) angle thus causing the variously directed wounds in the back of Abby's head. And since the blood was clotted...not as much splatter ?

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:32 am

The experts think it takes about 15 minutes for blood to *coagulate*.
The first blow was to the face and could not have killed her. It could knock her out and depending on where the 2nd blow fell, that might kill her. But I was under the impression that it was a muliplicity of wounds which did her in- not any single one- and maybe a combination of 2 or more.

I wonder how long it would take Abby's wounds to bleed out?

They always say that the first blow is *Free*- meaning that is not the one which will throw blood around. It is the second one which does that. If one stops at one, and leaves the hatchet in the wound, then there might be no blood spots at all- that's the explanation.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:08 am

The autopsy report mentions at first that there were "no marks of violence on front of body", but goes on to state that on the forehead and bridge of nose, there were three contused wounds. I am not seeing where it might say that these 3 wounds were NOT the cause of death. I mean getting knocked that hard in the front of the head 3 times would at least have knocked Abby deeply unconscious ? Maybe even to the point of death occuring only moments later ? I wonder if whoever inflicted those blows went to someone "in charge" and said "it's done"...and the in charge person said go make SURE ! The attacker then returned a few minutes later, (15 at least...to account for coagulation) and from a lying across the bed position...finished the job.

Maybe a few (or many) of you can make me see what's wrong with my thinking here ?

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:35 pm

Well, the whole lying-across-the-bed-to-attack scenerio of mine is not supported by any of the evidence, nor any of the experts.
It's just a new way to look at an old problem called 'where's the blood'?

Being knocked unconscious , one still bleeds. It's the heart rate which determines the amount of pumping blood.

The wound to Abby's face I referred to is called the "flap-wound", above her left ear at the scalp area. It's a frontal blow.
None of Abby's facial contusions were determined to be life threatening, that's all I know about those. We don't even know how she got them. If she had a defense wound that might imply she fought for the weapon, getting smacked with the handle or the turned blade.

Tonight they had a repeat of a story on "48 Hours" with Leslie Stahl. It was about the woman who stabbed her husband 198 times.
Now, she's on trial- she claims spousal abuse and a dominating husband. She says she feared for her life. Her answer to why so many cuts was that she kept thinking he was just going to get up and come after her! See, apparently she had made him so large and invincable in her mind (he outweighed her by 100 lbs.) that she couldn't conceive of her puny attempts to stab him would do the job and actually kill him. For a week afterward she said she was still afraid he would get up and come after her. That was after she had buried him in the backyard!
Now this can be bogus- lies.
But- it still seems possible to me. If someone is so overshadowed by this big threatening personality, it might seem that they couldn't be killed.
It makes me think about the overkill in the Borden case.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:19 am

Kat...I really think your across-the-bed theory is something to be looked at. I know that I am new at this, but your idea seems to make sense. I think we all should really take a longer look at it.

Tracy...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:14 am

I think its cool when people come up with a new idea or angle, I had to try it out for myself and see if it was a possibility. I tried my experiment 2 different ways, one was laying across the bed and hanging the upper portion of my body over the edge and two handedly swinging an imaginary hatchet. I found in that way I didn't have much leverage as my elbows were on the side of the bed, I couldn't get in a good swing and then all the cuts I would have made would have been horizontal on Abby's head. The way that worked best was when I layed on the bed with my body parallel to the side and where Abby would have been, which left only my left arm free to swing. I know I couldn't make 19 whacks like that, I don't think most women could, thats why I think it would have to be a man if the attack was made that way. Thats all I could figure on my own before I went to the source documents to see what they said there.

What about fainting? Isn't fainting basically when your blood pressure drops and theres not enough blood getting to your brain (head)? If the head is cut during this fainting spell, would there be enough blood pressure to cause spurting or not?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:04 pm

I didn't try it and I'm glad you did, Susan. I'm also glad it didn't involve falling facedown to the floor.

Actually my bed is on a futon frame and that is very low. Now I have a new picture in my mind as to how high the guestroom bed was- it was pretty high wasn't it?
How high is your bed?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:25 pm

One of Ann Rule's stories about a man who didn't
spurt out much blood came to mind. It was because
his body laying on the wound was heavy enough to stop the blood. I wonder if this was the case with Abby, she was kinda heavy. It was from "A Fever in the Heart"..

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:00 pm

Ooo, I stumbled across this searching for something else: Trial volume 2, page 1487 John Manning is on the stand;

Q. How near was the bed to the body of Mrs. Borden before Officer Doherty moved it away?
A. Oh, I should judge 30 inches, probably more than that, about a yard.

Q. A yard from Mrs. Borden's body?
A. Between the dressing case and the bed.

Q. Oh, the whole distance, you mean?
A. Yes.

Oh, I know, me and my experiments, curiosity and the cat.
My bed is 22 inches high off the ground.

The guest room bed's mattress looks like its a couple of inches below the middle shelf on the dressing case.

I did a search for a similar bedroom suite, they list the height of the bed and dressing case as being 84" tall, we might be able to figure about how high the mattress is from that?

Click here to view bedroom suite:

http://www.trocadero.com/Janet/items/10 ... store.html

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:41 pm

That was pretty cool!

I have a high bed in my master suite and so I took my 3 lb. old-fashioned hammer with it's 11.5 inch handle and moved quickly to the bed from where the guest room doorway would be and sort of crawled across the queeen bed on mt hands and knees with my hammer in my right hand sayting "Hello Mrs. Borden" and then struck at an invisable person who would be facing me. She fell backward against the bureau (I really have a bureau there). Then I changed hands!
Now that can't be right?
It was instinct tho because she was now below me and to my left. I had no trouble letting the hammer blows fall, as that and a hatchet are weighted for that purpose. I did tend to strike the same place over and over tho because she wasn't moving.
I tried to image what strength it would take to lift the blade from any skull-penetrating wound from my position.
I think there were only about 7 penetrating wounds out of 19? 5 were together to cave in her skull and two on the very top of her head? Does that sound right?

Anyway,in answer to another question, one facial wound, one wound to the upper back, and the rest were on the top and back of her head so she wasn't lying on any of them , at least when she was found, on her stomach.

I lived on Beacon Hill in a townhouse on Chestnut Street as a nanny and the two guestroom beds were so high a bedside stool was needed.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:57 am

OK...more rambling by me, but I'm trying to put together the ideas of Kat, Susan, what I understand from their views and what I have read on the autopsy report, etc., there were 3 face wounds...but only bad bruises. Possibly Abby was on her knees (almost even with the end of the bed) between the bed and dreesing table making the bed when the attacker first came in, could it have startled her to see someone taking a swing at her, and in an attempt to "duck" as the butt end of the axe hit her, she hit her head (hard) on the footboard ? Thus, giving her the two above the left eyebrow, and one bridge of the nose bruise. Then the attacker...seeing there's not a lot of room to work with, decides to come across the bed. Being right-handed, the first couple of swings hit the top of the skull. One penetrates...one nearly does. The attacker takes a few more whacks, then to get a better angle changes hands. But, not using their dominant hand, the cuts become more "willy-nilly". Except for the few whacks that caved in the right side of the head. I guess those whacks were the first thrown after switching hands, since they did so much damage...swing arm was stronger, not as tired.

I tried repeating Susan's experiments, from lying across my waterbed, however my waterbed is not quite as high as the guest room bed. But, I could easily see how a couple of strikes taken with the right hand and then switching to the left for a better angle could have been very possible.

Thanks for letting me put my thoughts together here.

Tracy...

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:15 am

Tracy, your post put me in mind of one thing in favor of the over the bed theory: the style of bedroom furniture. The heavy old furniture in that room was of a style that usually placed the bed much higher than do beds of later styles. My aunt had such a bedroom set, and when I was little, I had to take a running jump to get into it.

--Lyddie

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:21 am

Hi Lyddie,

You just made ME think of something...if the bed was higher than what we are used to now, and Abby being not tall and possibly on her knees tucking in clean sheets, she may have been at such an angle near the footboard that she may have not even seen the attacker until it was TOO late...therefore no defense wounds as she gets knocked in the forehead ?

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:44 pm

Shoot. I thought maybe City Engineer Kieran supplied measurements in the guest room as to height of the first shelf of the bureau but all I can find is the length of the bed. On the 16th when he was there measuring, he said it was 34" between the bed & bureau. (But by that time the bed had been taken apart and put back together.)

So Tracy you think it was OK to switch hands- seemed normal?
I wonder if that would explain Susan's wonderment at left-handedness vs. right-handedness testimony she has been trying to come to terms with all along?

All the blood was down low, on the mop-board, on the bedspread, on the board at the bottom of the bed, on the chair rungs at the head of the bed and on the lower drawers of the bureau.
If a person did not raise the weapon higher than the bed there might not be any high spashes, like on the ceiling or on the bed itself. (Which I don't think there were?)
The hair ended up in the middle of the bed, recall.
I always wondered how it got there.
Maybe the killer pulled it off and threw it next to them?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:58 pm

Well, my question with the right hand, left hand thing is that laying on the bed, on your stomach, parallel to Abby's body, would make it almost impossible to use your right hand to strike at her. But, your left hand would be free to go over the side of the bed and whack to your heart's content. Even laying at a angle, face down, the left arm is the one over the left side of the bed that has more freedom of use. And then I read in the Trial that the cuts were considered to be made by a person with their right hand, which I think would be very hard to do. And I keep thinking of that camp chair that was originally at Abby's head, would it have been in the way at all?

Then I thought of this scenario, instead of lying on the bed, why not sit on the bed and bend over and strike? It would leave both arms free and then the strikes could come more from the right to left then.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:32 am

OK, if the blood is all down low, then I would think it would have come from the two cuts on top of Abby's head. I don't think those blows were in quick succesion because I think at this point, the attacker was lying across the bed, making it not the most convenient angle of attack, even thought they were right-handed and swinging as such. After the second blow is when the attacker switched hands and changed to a length-wise po0sition on the bed. By now Abby has or nearly has bled out from the wounds on top of her head, so the rest of the whacks didn't make for as much splatter. I think because Abby's body had to be closer to the foot end of the bed, the camp chair wouldn't have been much in the way. I wonder if Abby's braid maid it to the middle of the bed because the attacker, while swinging with their left arm for some reason grabbed at Abby's hair with their right hand after having cut it off with a whack or two. Then the attacker flung it up on the bed out of the way. Or maybe they grabbed hold of it while they were chopping, for whatever reason.

OR...when the attacker took the lengthwise position, and because Abby was closer to the foot end, they had their head towards the foot end of the bed and their feet at the head end. Therefore right-handed strikes would have been the most likely...right ?

As for sitting on the edge of the bed, I tried simulating the swings from on top of one of my friends beds, but couldn't get the horizontal cuts in at all, and nearly fell off the bed just trying to get any 'good' swings in, and if I had been using a real axe, I would have chopped a chunk or two out of my legs. But, I am only 5'1", so maybe that makes a difference too.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:42 pm

Susan that is interesting, but one of the benefits of lying on the bed to attack is it protects the clothing. Kneeling on the bed seems like a person would topple over and get blood spatter- but that I am just imagining.

Abby was approx. 3 feet from the East wall because of that chair.
It's something to think about and envision that if someone lay on the bed they were more facing the foot and that would leave the right hand free.

Hmmm.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:33 pm

Suppose the killer began lying down, awkwardly stiking by necessity with the left until the blood stopped spurting, then sitting up and switching hands to finish obliterating Abby. Those extra blows were delivered out of hatred rather than need. The killer seems to have had strong feelings and either meant to wipe out all traces of a hated face or been unable to stop an act of frenzy. Frenzy doesn't seem to go along with hand switching though.

About the bed height. Tracy raises an interesting possibility of surprising a kneeling Abby by means of the high frame. From behind or above, this line of reasoning seems to favor the Abby-on-the-floor setup, which accounts for surprise and lack of noisy thud. A blow from an outstreched form seems to indicate family--someone who could conduct casual conversation from the bed without suspicion. A blow from behind could be anyone.

About the hair. Wasn't it a switch? I've always thought that the hairpinned switch was detached during the attack, but certainly not thrown upon the bed by the weapon. Placement seems deliberate (almost a trophy) and brings me back to favoring a personal killing--not a hired execution.

Hmmm.

--Lyddie

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:24 am

It's something to think about and envision that if someone lay on the bed they were more facing the foot and that would leave the right hand free.

Ah! I see what you mean now, I was too busy envisioning someone laying so that they would be closer to and facing over Abby's head towards the wall!

But, then theres the direction from which the cuts were thought to have been struck from; from Abby's autopsy it states:

"These wounds on the right side were parallel, the direction being mostly from in front backwards." Meaning to me that the cuts were struck down from the top of Abby's head towards her feet. I sort of remembered reading that, thats where I kept getting that idea that if the killer lay on the bed, they had to lay in the same direction as Abby to get those kind of strikes in, not all, but most.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:15 pm

Len says the bed was 27" high, if that helps at all.
The replica bed that is, which is very close to the real thing.

I told him about our new angle.
I think he's tickled that we are always searching.

I had questions about the Borden house for my Hatchet article/installment.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:55 pm

Here is Abby in comparison to the bed. Her head is even with the middle of the bureau.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:23 pm

27"? Thats a pretty tall bed. See, I keep hitting stumbling blocks with the testimony of the doctors, some are more convinced of their findings than others. But, from what I can gather, it sounds like the cuts in Abby's head start towards the camp chair and come backward. And, come from the right, down to the left. Some of the cuts are on a diagonal, the starting point is up to the left, the bottom of the wound is down to the right. I'm still trying to figure out a way that someone could lay across that bed and strike with their right hand and make those cuts.

Thanks for that picture of Abby, thats cool, it gives us an idea of where she lay beyond that bed in reference to the wall and the head of the bed. It would have been so helpful to see how close her head was to that camp chair.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 9:03 pm

I would like to advise that the ratio is not necessarily true.
It might be off a bit.

I think her head was approx. 3' from the wall- that's a yardstick.

It almost seems like she was felled about the middle of the bed/bureau in linear terms.
However, I can't rule out her body was moved.

If she was 1/2 way down the bed- striking her from the left or the right seems the odds would be about even, one way or the other?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:37 am

Thanks for the picture and the info Kat ! I am glad you called Mr. Rebello. I was thinking of calling him too.

Maybe the attacker went at Abby, once she was on the floor, from all 3 directions...directly across the bed, lengthwise (head to the top of the bed), and lengthwise (head to the bottom of the bed) ? The wounds, like Susan said, seem so willy-nilly. I am having a hard time deciding if it was the killer's anger or if it was that the killer panicked which caused the variation in the directions of the wounds.

Tracy...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:07 am

Tracy, as I was reading through the doctor's testimony about Abby's wounds, I wondered the same thing. There seems to have been quite a few cuts on Abby's head that bit into the skull, but, didn't penetrate. I think there were at least 5 on the left side of the back of her head. Panicked hacking or a glut of fury?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:21 pm

Did ya'll read my comments on the "Similar Murder" topic about the woman who stabbed her husband 198 times? She claimed she was so afraid that he wasn't dead, and that he would just get up and come after her, that she kept striking.

If there was fear involved (sort of like a self-defense reflex, only with an extra psychological twist), I could imagine that kind of overkill in that state of mind. (As one way of looking at it)., But I think I might more likely asign that response to Lizzie if/when she killed Andrew. What could she fear physically in Abby?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 3:30 pm

I only asked Len the heighth of the bed. He in no way commented on our theory- I just wish to be clear. Actually were were talking about the attic.

Now, recall Susan found a good camp chair? I had manipulated it all around (I learned a lot from that chair!)- anyway here is Susan's good chair and my rendition of the guest room with chairs in place and the bed gone. (Approximations..).

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:04 pm

Did ya'll read my comments on the "Similar Murder" topic about the woman who stabbed her husband 198 times? She claimed she was so afraid that he wasn't dead, and that he would just get up and come after her, that she kept striking

Yes, I did read it. I agree, with Andrew there may have been a fear of retaliation, that he might fight back or stop his murder completely. With Abby, I don't know, fear she might start screaming if not dead completely? So many whacks with the hatchet, but, only a select few were the death strokes that made a hole in her skull. I'm thinking if there was anger, wouldn't the strikes just continue repeatedly in the same spot until Abby's head was a pulp? So many strikes all over the place, was it panic? Did Abby struggle since she saw her attacker and knew it was coming? Try to get away or moved about on the floor? If it was Lizzie, perhaps she found that it was actually harder to kill someone than she had originally thought?

Thanks for the new pic, I think it really helps put into perspective just how crowded that room was with stuff, especially the spot where Abby lay. It was an incredibly tight space.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 2:39 pm

I thinks it's possible Abby moved around. Then that would mean she was posed after death. I think if the killer posed her flat on her stomach then they (he/she) would also have probably set those things to right on the bureau.

I doubt Abby fell and was found in that position we see.

When we add the chairs we see there is even less room there for the attacker to do the work, for the body to fall that way, and for no objects to be upset.

If this posture we see IS the way she died, and the person stood over her as the experts said does that necessitate a longer hatchet handle?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:24 pm

i don't believe there were two chairs like that in
that room, are we making things up now?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:25 pm

It was mentioned that there was blood on the legs of that camp chair by the head of the bed, but, not if there was blood on the seat that I recall? I'm wondering if Abby grabbed that on the way down or just fell on it, possibly making it harder for the murderer to strike. Could she then have been grabbed by her ankles and pulled down towards the foot of the bed giving more head room to strike her about the head?

I'm thinking that a shorter handle would be more advantageous in that tight space, instead of a 12" handle, maybe an 8" if there was such a thing?

Nancie, do you have access to the Preliminary and Trial transcripts? There were 3 chairs total in the guest room, off the top of my head, there was a camp chair near Abby's head, a caned chair near the side of the dressing table with a work basket on it and if I remember correctly, a rocking chair. If you'd like I can post the info later, have to run soon, I have a dinner date.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:50 am

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... idence.htm

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:48 am

Thanks, Kat, I didn't know all the chair info was there, I was close, but, no cigar. And, nothing about any blood being on that camp chair other than the legs. Then theres the info about Abby's arms being slightly over her head on the floor? Unless she was unconcious on the way down, I'm thinking her hands would have been under her more to catch herself on the way down. They almost seem posed, if she fell unconcious, wouldn't they just be more at her sides, ot this way and that? Hands above head = Body moved by murderer?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 11:10 am

Some Victorian caned chairs:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:43 pm

Hello, fellow members!
Just because Susan's name is in the title doesn't mean you all can't join in

Read a source document or two, downloadable from the website- navigate the web-site a bit- read some archives- you're all set to jump in, especially when it's a *hypothetical topic*.

I'm reading How To Solve A Murder and our case seemingly lacks all the aspects we needed to solve this crime:
"If a scientific investigation is conducted at crime scene before anything present has been moved, touched, or trampled down, an amazing amount of data can be recovered for investigation and analysis. Much of it may prove to have little or no bearing on the crime, but two or three hairs found on the victim's body, fibre particles taken from the victim's clothing, a partial fingerprint lifted from the victim's skin, or DNA typing of blood or semen found on the scene may be what is needed to locate, identify, and convict the perpetrator."
.....
"But it would not do to forget that for all the assistnce of the criminalists in making a case, the burden of finding, assembling and interpreting the evidence remains in the hands of the detectives. Their training and expertise is as important as that of the forensic specialists."

--Look at all we are missing! Plus inept detectives! Can you imagine if Lizzie's hair was found on Abby's body? Someone's hair must have trasferred!

I watch Cold Case on Sunday nights and this is a "Cold Case." Their sentiment on the show as to why these cases are more important than recent murder cases is because these old murder victims have been waiting longer for justice.

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