Questions about Lizzie

[cberry]

This is the first time I've written to this forum. Can anyone tell me why Lizzie and Emma never married? Did Lizzie have a male friend to go out with? Where did Lizzie move to after the trial? Is that house available for visitors to see?

[Tina-Kate]

Welcome, Cherry. I'm laughing because @ this very moment, I'm snacking on a bowl of cherries & dipping them in vanilla yogurt. I felt I had to reply to yr post.

No one knows exactly "why" neither of the "girls" married. Emma was an adolescent @ the time of the Civil War, & perhaps there was a deficit of men in her age range. Of course, there are the rumors that Lizzie was a lesbian.

Lizzie & Emma moved to a small mansion on "The Hill" in Fall River. Lizzie named it Maplecroft. The house is privately owned today. The owner is getting on in years & finding the house is too much for him. I believe it's still up for sale.

[diana]

Hi cberry -- and welcome to the forum! Good questions, all of them, and not easy to answer .

We can never know for sure why the Borden sisters didn’t marry. Perhaps the marriage between Andrew and Abby that was modelled in their own home didn’t exactly inspire romantic notions. Emma was old enough to remember their real mother and may have remembered her decline in health after Lizzie’s birth. Maybe this was enough to put her off the whole idea, or as Tina-Kate suggests, there may have been a lack of suitors due to the timing of the war. Maybe no one asked them? Although one would think that there might have been some mercenary men who lusted after Andrew’s fortune, if nothing else. And Lizzie was not unattractive – especially when she was younger. Here’s a link to pictures of her, if you haven’t already explored the resources on the forum.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... graphs.htm

One theory has it that Lizzie was involved with a man, David Anthony, who did not meet with Andrew’s approval – that this man was the real murderer -- and that Lizzie remained faithful to their unrequited love for the rest of her life.

Tina-Kate has already answered your question about Maplecroft. The house is still standing – but not open to the public (although I guess one might pose as a prospective buyer…...)

I'm wondering if you'd share what it was that piqued your interest in the case?

[Kat]

Hello!
Is that C-Berry as in Seabury?

[Tina-Kate]

Egads -- my eyes are going! My apologies, Cberry.

[lydiapinkham]

Welcome, cberry! Are you a Bowen descendant? If not, and if all these Seabury and Bowen questions are confusing you, Seabury Bowen was the doctor who lived cattacorner to Lizzie. He is the doctor Lizzie sent Bridget for after discovering (?) Andrew's body. Please disregard if you already know all this. I don't mean to condescend, but I suddenly imagined you having that username because you were named Clementine Berry or something. The Seabury and Bowen questions would sound pretty random.

Anyway. Glad to have you with us!

--Lyddie

[Kat]

I thought it was a pretty clever use of the name.

I often wonder why people call themselves what they do.
I might ask more members..

[cberry]

I became interested in the Lizzie Borden case because I have a friend who has been told by different psychics for several years that she was Lizzie in her past life. Family and friends have been told at different times that she was Lizzie also. This probably sounds dumb and I'm sure many people have been told the same thing. However, that sparked my interest and I have been doing some reading about her this summer. I would love to visit Fall River and learn more.

[Stefani]

Welcome cberry!

I was just last week talking about this spinster question with Micheal Martins as we were setting up the interview for The Hatchet. I remarked that a lot of Lizzie's friends also did not marry, that many in her crowd died childless and single. It seemed to me that this "situation" was not unusual for her time at all. It also makes sense that she would hang out with other single people. One can feel quite the outsider if you only socialize with couples when you yourself are not dating or married.

I don't think it was unusual for either sister to live their lives the way they did. Especially after the trial and the infamy that came from their tragic and gruesome story. It would be hard to open up to anyone after that, I would think, even if you wanted to.

The girls seemed to be very private people. They probably preferred to remain that way. Plus dating and marriage is a lot of work--- a full time job actually, don't you think?

[Haulover]

stefani:

i appreciate your rare appearance on the board. the magazine just keeps looking better and better -- as the quality of the contents seems to me onward and upward. i mean the whole thing gets stronger. it has nice surprises.

your last statement is true enough. i tried, but life is short.

it looks like socializing was more "carefully defined" in lizzie's day. i doubt there is any difference today in how many are single and how many are married. i could be wrong -- i know there is a theory about the damage done by the civil war -- well, i do know there was more than enough damage in a general sense -- but today, socializing seems to be more a matter of a common interest as opposed to who you are demographically. and this does not make "socializing" any more "personal" than it was then -- it just rearranges the picture.

intuitively, i do believe this about lizzie -- regardless of her society or how much she traveled -- i do believe she was a truly lonely individual. it seems that she never accomplished anything to distinguish herself from her reputation as a murderess, and who ever really knew her?

[Kat]

If Lizzie killed to get out from under her father's domination of her for the past 32 years, she may not have felt like she wanted to turn her money she inherited (earned?) over to another man and be his chattel as well. Not after such a hard-won liberation.

[Susan]

Thats a good point, Kat. We've read how Lizzie and Emma wanted to do and see and have and ol' Andrew stood in the way. Would either one want to give up that freedom to another man who would possibly control the purse strings, I don't think so.

[Stefani]

Haulover, now that I have a wireless internet connection and can use my laptop from any room in the house, I will be more active. I think of the desktop as my work computer, for some reason. It is much more fun to sit on the floor, as I am now, and type away. Thanks for the compliments about the mag. It is good to know anything about it from anybody! I love feedback, whether positive or critical. If I don't hear from you guys about what you want or what you don't want, I will only do what I think is best. Feedback is vital in a growing living document like The Hatchet.

Great point Kat. I can easily imagine that keeping anyone's hands off that money would be important to both women. There may have been boyfriends in Lizzie's life. I would think that IF she had any relationships with members of any sex they would have to be people she could trust to be mum about it. As Tracy's signature says, "You don't know what you don't know."

[cberry]

I have one more question about the Borden family. Is there any indication of sexual abuse in the family? Maybe between father and Lizzie or father and Emma? Could Abbey have known about the abuse but did nothing about it?

[FairhavenGuy]

There's no clear indication of sexual abuse, really, but it certainly has been theorized, and some think it's the motive for the murders.

I don't know how many of us at this forum feel that's the case. Maybe Harry should set up another poll.

[Harry]

As Fairhavenguy says there is no evidence if incest having taken place. Personally I would have a hard time believing it did.

There are several articles in the Proceedings book covering this subject.

I don't believe you can add a poll to an existing message so if I did start one it would have to be a new message.

Would you like a poll on this subject?

[theebmonique]

I think a poll would be a great idea Harry !


Tracy...

[Kat]

I was reading a book about a poisoner, Jane Toppan (Stefani wrote a bit on her & Harvard's Prof. Wood in this month's Hatchet ) and as a serial killer and poisoner, they listed the warning signs: bed-wetting, fire-starting, cruelty to animals- they left out the bump on the head. We don't hear any evidence of these behaviors, admittedly, tho, they are for serial killers- but possibly sociopaths who kill?
They did talk about abuse and that really it seemed that most people who grew up to kill had been abused in some powerful way- whether physical, psychological or verbal.

Personally, I think she is pretty old at 32, to be getting revenge for incest.

[cberry]

Regarding my question about the sexual abuse, I was thinking of Lizzie as being a teenager, maybe about 15. The abuse stopped as she became an adult. A family member or close friend found out about the abuse several years later and became enraged about it. That person confronted Abbey and ended up killing her and then killed Andrew. I don't think Lizzie killed her father and stepmother but she knew who the killer was. She may even have seen Abbley murdered and then left the house to escape the violence and hatred.

[Kat]

The only person I can think of who we know exists and who would want revenge for mistreatment of Lizzie would be Emma.
Her *little mother*.

Emma never goes away, yet she was gone during this crucial day...

[Susan]

I guess the question with that would be, why did Emma wait so long, if it was indeed she acting out of revenge? If she didn't know, why would Lizzie have waited to that point of time to tell her?

A scenario for sexual abuse comes to mind that perhaps it was Uncle John that had done it in the past. He comes to visit and Lizzie is angry with her parents for allowing him to stay in the house, maybe they pooh-poohed the very idea. Didn't John Morse mention in his testimony that the door to Lizzie's room was locked when he went up to bed? How did he know that? Why would he know that?

[Kat]

Why wasn't Uncle John killed, then?
Do you think he would have been a target?

John Morse is perverse and says things for seemingly no reason.
I think he explains the remark later as that Lizzie's door is always locked? And Andrews. And the connecting door to Lizzie's from the guest room.

[Susan]

Well, I'm thinking of this as something that may have happened when Lizzie was younger, perhaps when he lived with them for that time, she came to hate and fear the man. We know that she never wrote to him, only Emma did. Lizzie hadn't seen him in years and he comes to the house and not once does she stop down or by to say hello to him. Maybe her fear of him paralyzed her so that she couldn't do that particular act? In this case, he should have been the target, but, maybe that hatred of him was turned on Andrew and Abby when they wouldn't give Lizzie the protection or help she asked for. Mind you, this is all just thinking out loud, I don't know that I quite believe this, just trying on a different scenario.

From the Preliminary Volume 3, John Morse testifies:

Q. Did you happen to know, in the arrangement of the house, as it was then, whether the spare chamber was accessible to be(sic) back stairs?

A. That night, no sir it was not.

Q. Why not?

A. Because Miss Lizzie's door was locked.

Q. Which?

A. Miss Lizzie's.

Q. That leads into the front hall?

A. Yes sir.

He goes on to say later that he didn't know if the door between the guest room and Lizzie's room was locked or not, but, he sounds like he was pretty sure about the door into her room from the hall! I noticed in the trial that he later says that he wasn't sure if Lizzie's door was locked that night or not, but, closer to the actual event he seemed sure.

[Kat]

How about abuse from Hiram Harrington?
Lizzie doesn't like him and he is her only suspect she ever named in the killings of the Bordens.
They all lived together at or on Ferry Street until Lizzie was 12 years old.

That might be about the time abuse stopped, leaving her scarred for life. I would think she would be more a target for sexual battery before her teens.

Hiram doesn't like Lizzie much either- but we never discuss him.
Heck, Hiram is not even allowed in the Borden house! What's with That!?

[Susan]

Yes, Hiram could definitely be seen in that light, but, I was thinking along the lines of something that might be a catalyst for the murders that day. Hiram, if he is to be believed, came to the house later on and was only there for a few minutes time.

Then I always have in the back of my mind that vibe that psychic Jane Doherty talks about on her sight, that there was sexual abuse that happened in the wood room in the cellar of #92. But, you are right, most sexual abuse seems to occur during the younger years in a child's life and either continues on or abates as they age.

But, its still thought provoking, what was the deal between Lizzie and Hiram Harrington? Did she just think he was too low class for her higher aspirations in life and let him know as such? It couldn't be just because Andrew didn't like him as Emma still kept in touch with him. He sounds like he thinks Lizzie is snobby. Perhaps Hiram ribbed her about her high falutin' ways? Did you ever notice that Lizzie doesn't seem to like any of her relatives? Not from Abby's side definitely, but, her own mother's brother, her uncle Hiram and possibly Lurana too. Lizzie just seems to snub everyone in the family, why? What has she against all these different people?

[Kat]

If Andrew found out that Hiram had just even made advances to Lizzie as a child, he certainly would ban him from his house. And Hiram could put it about that the quarrel was over money with Andrew's sister, and neither Lurana, nor Andrew, could ever come out and say why Hiram was persona non grata at the Bordens.
I have not had the feeling that Lizzie disliked Morse, because Emma said he was a very dear uncle of "theirs."
But there is animosity between Hiram & Lizzie and Andrew.
Emma still visited at Hiram's place but that was probably only to see her aunt.
Hiram tells us that Luranna asked him why she hadn't seen Lizzie that much that summer and he told her Lizzie had said she was busy with her mission work.

I have a feeling that Lurana was sickly- heck she and Andrew were the only surviving children of that whole Borden family descended of Abraham. Abraham lost several daughters. And Lurana lost her son. Sounds depressing to me.

If Lurana was sickly and Lizzie was nearby and if they were living together, Hiram may have tried something.
I can't quite see him trying it with Emma tho. Maybe that is why Emma so slipped into the Borden background - to protect herself, like camoflage.

But then what, still, is the motive to kill the Bordens?
It would seem as if Hiram *did it*, if Lizzie has her say.

I wonder what cberry thinks about all of this?

[Susan]

Thats good, I like that. Yet, if Lizzie wanted it to be believed that Hiram did it, why didn't she press the matter more, why mention his name only once as a suspect? I still can't come up with a good reason why Lizzie would kill her parents if Hiram was the abuser. Did Lizzie mention Hiram as a suspect first or did he give his interview first where he dissed Lizzie? If it was the latter, I can see her taking a swipe at him, first because of the nasty picture he paints of Lizzie and secondly because what he says could have been the truth.

Yes, is CBerry still with us?

[connecticuthills]

I took my Mom (visiting from Fla) to Falls River
yesterday it was her first visit, my second.
Under the new ownership we actually had a guided tour
( the first time i went a highschool kid let us in
and we had free reign except she wouldnt let us see the basement)
A gent named Ed was the tour guide dressed in semi period clothes and had a white beard no mustache like Andrew. My daughter asked him who he thought did the dastardly deed and he believes Uncle John and an accomplish did it with Lizzies full knowledge. He is a 40 yr Lizzie enthusiast so who am I to question, but..... I always thought Uncle John had an air tight alibi.
The highlight of the day in Fall River was the historical society what a treat listening to our guide describe Lizzies life beyond the murders . She was truly ostracised by the community. She brought the Borden story to life.

[diana]

Thanks for that report! It's always interesting to hear about visits to Second Street. I wonder if that's the new owners' position -- that JVM is the villain? Or just the opinion of that particular guide?

The Historical Society was a highlight for me, too. The fellow who gave us the tour there knew a lot about the Borden case and did a wonderful job of sketching in the social history of Fall River around that time.

[Kat]

That's Ed Thibault!
He's in the videos and the LBQ.

[Harry]

That's an interesting take Kat about Hiram Harrington. He's one of those mystery figures that we don't all that much about. Obviously something happened between Andrew and him.

The theory of a family scandal was not unknown at the time. This article appeared in the FR Herald, date unknown but before the beginning of the Preliminary. It appears in the Kent/Flynn Sourcebook, page 133:

"While the majority of people have been twisting their mind in all shapes in order to find a theory or clue for the murder of Mr. and Mrs. Borden, not a few have been asking themselves what was the reason that John V. Morse left his farm in Iowa and came east at this particular time. It was the season of the year when farming duties require the most attention, and the cause must have been very urgent to have brought him to this city.
A HERALD reporter called on a member of the Borden family and asked if she could answer the question. At first a refusal was met with, but finally the following was obtained: "The cause of Mr. Morse's visit to the city was known by few members of the family. It has never been divulged, for the reason that family pride tried to conceal it. There is always a skeleton in most houses, and the home of Mr. Borden's was no exception. By members of the family it was known that Lizzie regarded Mr. Morse with more tenderness than most nieces feel for their uncles. This Mr. Borden was aware of, and he was constantly on the alert to see that the breath of scandal did not reach his home. Why should Mr. Morse make his residence at Dartmouth while on the visit if something did not prevent him accepting the hospitality of his nieces?"
"Do you know if Lizzie ever had a young man calling at the house?" was asked.
"No, I do not think she had. She used to attend church with a near neighbor, but no suspicion of wrongdoing was ever attached to that.
"Could you state as to how Mr. Borden acted as regards allowing his daughters to keep company with young men?"
" Mr. Borden, as was known by all people acquainted with him, was a very strict and stern man. He never opposed his daughters in this matter provided the parties were respectable, and it can truthfully be said that outside of the fact stated above the Bordens never gave their father an opportunity to chide them as to the company they kept. The haughty and cold nature of Lizzie was repellent to most people, and it was seldom that she was seen on the street in male company unless attended by the friend who went to and from church with her. No, I do not know whether Mr. Morse and Lizzie were in the habit of having carriage rides, but it would not be impossible for them to do so without my knowledge. "

Assuming the article is not entirely made up, the writer refers to the source family member as "she". It certainly wouldn't be Emma. Luranna Harrington? Probably not as she was supposed to be quite sick. Sarah Whitehead would seem to be the logical source.

[lydiapinkham]

Could the source be from JVM's side of the family, Harry? One thing about JVM, during the investigation, he did his best to distance himself from Lizzie: pointing out that he'd had letters only from Emma--never Lizzie--when he was in Iowa. Also, he makes it clear that she made no attempt to acknowledge his presence in the house during this last visit. Of course, this distancing could be a cover too. . .

--Lyddie

[Kat]

There were local Morse, but would they cast aspersions on their own kin's character? Actually, the local Morse's benefitted under JVM's will.

It somehow sounds like one side of the family throwing stones at the other.
The "she" might be written in the newspaper to mislead...I've thought that about other *interviews.*

[Susan]

Thanks, Harry, interesting read. This part of the interview caught my eye: The haughty and cold nature of Lizzie was repellent to most people, and it was seldom that she was seen on the street in male company unless attended by the friend who went to and from church with her.

Haughty, cold nature, repellent......hmmmm, why does that sound so much like ol' Hiram Harrington's interview with the press? I don't recall anyone else using those types of words to describe Lizzie with, could it have been he that added more to mix under an assumed identity? The very idea that Lizzie was encouraging an incestuous relationship with an man who was almost old enough to be her father and her uncle and her mother's brother no less, sounds farfetched as well as disgusting.

And whom was this male company that Lizzie attended church with? Is that a reference to Dr. Bowen? If so, there was some scandal attached to that by one woman who was interviewed, which I would imagine would make it known to others in the community as gossip.

[Kat]

The more I think about it the more I wonder why Lizzie had no boyfriend. She's rich and decent looking and eligible- and I doubt her family was that much more weird than most.

Even if she didn't want a husband, surely she would have liked an escort? (Who wasn't married like Dr. Bowen and who would at least seem available.) It would have raised her status, and she could then expect some invitations.
It's surprising that she didn't set her sights on a beau to get her out of that house, rather than a hatchet instead.

[Susan]

Well, I guess there is always the pat, Legend answer with Lizzie alleged to be a lesbian. But, there may be more to it than that. Perhaps Emma, being older when her mother died, knew somehow that her mother's death was connected to childbirth, may have overheard the doctor, or was told? A husband+childbirth=death. Could Emma have instilled these fears in Lizzie's mind since she was a child and estranged her from male company?

Then there is the wealth issue, surely any man that came about to call on Lizzie would have to stand up to Andrew's measure. If he came from a family that wasn't moneyed, Andrew may have seen him as a fortune hunter and sent him packing. And a man who was from a moneyed family would have daughters from moneyed families on "The Hill" to court, why go down to piddily Second Street to woo the daughter of ol' sour puss? I think Lizzie did suffer from that location if she was looking to attract a man of means.

But, there must have been some men that were interested in her somewhere. What of that preacher who decided to write her whilst she was in prison that Andrew Jennings wrote back to and told him to stop? It sounds like he was attracted to Lizzie in some way in the past, but, she apparently couldn't stand him. There must have been others.

Maybe the idea of marrying a man and becoming his housekeeper didn't appeal to her? She certainly didn't lift a finger around Andrew's house if she didn't want to, would she put herself in a position where it was expected of her?

[Kat]

We don't even have tales of any courtship in her younger days. I'd think around age 19, Lizzie would still like a boyfriend or to appear to have one, and might not yet know her own sexual preference either way.

She did probably live among a large extended family and there was birth and death there in the Ferry Street house- not just with her mother, but her aunt and her grandmother. I'd think by the time she moved to Second Street she would have experienced a lot.
It was a better address than Ferry Street I think.
From 12 to 19 she may have thought she was doing rather well there- but at some point did she become a snob?

Because of such things as Dowries, I'd think that shows that the Father population would rather PAY a suitor to marry his daughter than to support her the rest of his and her life himself.

[lydiapinkham]

Maybe Andrew decided it was "cheaper to keep her" in his own stingy style than to shell out for a dowry.

One thing I think she would fear would be marrying a man who would control her purse strings the way Papa had. There is some implication that she might have had illicit relations that would not endanger her economic independence--if not with Nance, then with the fired then rehired driver.

--Lyddie

[Susan]

I think that I keep looking at this thing with eyes from our era where we have things like Paris Hilton's sex tapes and such. From what I recall of Lizzie's time, a good girl didn't kiss a man unless she was engaged to him, it was just not considered proper. Then there was the need for a chaperone, how can romance flourish with some glowering matron sitting not 2 feet away? Can you imagine going to dinner with some cute guy and having Emma tag along for the whole evening?

And the men of the era, even if they did date Lizzie, would they "kiss and tell", besmirch the character of a young lady? Maybe with his buddies he might, but, I don't think he would tell his story to the papers, not if he was a gentleman. So, there may have been word out there of Lizzie's dates, it just didn't get around so that we hear of it today.

Yes, I think the Second Street home was a step up from Ferry Street, but, it sounds as though Second Street had hit its heyday years ago and was just on this side of being seedy. It was a commercial as well as residential zone. I keep thinking about Mrs. Churchill's house, the old Mayor Buffington house, the neighborhood must have been rather nice at one point in time if the mayor lived there.

Yes, I think at some point, Lizzie must have become snobby. The "go and do and have" that sounds like it was above her means and she wanted it despite Andrew not giving in to her aspirations of grandeur. I have to wonder if the family did move to "The Hill", would Lizzie have finally been happy or would her avarice re-establish itself once there? Would Lizzie have married then having the new socially acceptable address? Would the murders have still happened anyway?

[cberry]

Thank you for your answers. I was wondering, Susan, you mentioned the wood room cellar of
#92. Is that the house number on the Borden's house? Who is Jane Doherty? Does she have a web sight that you can visit with her?

[Gary]

Yes, Jane Doherty does have a webite in which she gives the interesting details of the impressions she picked up at the Borden house. I wish I could provide the link but my computer has been acting up. You can Google her name.

Speaking for myself, I will never disregard a psyhic's abilitites off hand. Many are frauds but there are those who are truely gifted. For what it is worth my 11 year old daughter and I are the family psychics.

Gary

[lydiapinkham]

Cberry, 92 Second Street was the Borden house address (changed since). 92 was also the street number of Andrew's Spring St. property. And 1892 was the year of the crime, so there were lots of 92's in the case. The number always catches my eye now: just today it struck me that one of our local elementary schools is prominently dated over the door in large numbers, 1892.

--Lyddie

[Susan]

I was wondering, Susan, you mentioned the wood room cellar of
#92. Is that the house number on the Borden's house? Who is Jane Doherty? Does she have a web sight that you can visit with her?

Hi CBerry, Jane Doherty is a psychic who does investigations of haunted houses. Here is the link to the Borden house investigation:

http://www.janedoherty.com/lizzie1.htm


Thats a good point, Lyddie, I never thought of that! #92 Second Street, the year was '92, I wonder what that would all point to numerologically speaking? You would add the 9 and the 2 and get 11, and this is what I found is the meaning of the number 11:

11. High spiritual plane, intuitive, illumination, idealist, a dreamer.

Just for fun I added up all the numbers in Lizzie's name which comes to a 3, here is the expression for a #3:

3
An Expression of 3 produces a quest for destiny with words along a variety of lines that may include writing, speaking, singing, acting or teaching; our entertainers, writers, litigators, teachers, salesmen, and composers. You also have the destiny to sell yourself or sell just about any product that comes along. You are imaginative in your presentation, and you may have creative talents in the arts, although these are more likely to be latent. You are an optimistic person that seems ever enthusiastic about life and living. You are friendly, loving and social, and people like you because you are charming and such a good conversationalist. Your ability to communicate may often inspire others. It is your role in life to inspire and motivate; to raise the spirits of those around you.
The negative side of number 3 Expression is superficiality. You may tend to scatter your forces and simply be too easygoing. It is advisable for the negative 3 to avoid dwelling on trivial matters, especially gossip.

[Kat]

Yes, Jane Doherty does have a webite in which she gives the interesting details of the impressions she picked up at the Borden house. I wish I could provide the link but my computer has been acting up. You can Google her name.

Speaking for myself, I will never disregard a psyhic's abilitites off hand. Many are frauds but there are those who are truely gifted. For what it is worth my 11 year old daughter and I are the family psychics.

Gary

Hey, cool! What is your focus of energy- what do you do the best?

[lydiapinkham]

How about her number when she changed to Lizbeth? I have to admit numerology doesn't do much for me--too easy to manipulate--but the synchronicity of numbers is uncanny!

--Lyddie

[Susan]

Hmmm, lets see, Lizbeth Andrews Borden comes to an 8. 8 is money-oriented, decisive, and stern. Actually, that sounds alot like Andrew!

[MysteryReader]

A gent named Ed was the tour guide dressed in semi period clothes and had a white beard no mustache like Andrew. My daughter asked him who he thought did the dastardly deed and he believes Uncle John and an accomplish did it with Lizzies full knowledge. He is a 40 yr Lizzie enthusiast so who am I to question, but..... I always thought Uncle John had an air tight alibi..

The only thing is: Uncle John didn't bring anything with him and no one saw blood on his clothes or person (he had no clothes with him) and if he walked around in his underwear, someone would have seen him. Just had a thought while typing- if he did it nude, he could have washed off the blood either in the basement or barn.

[Curryong]

Wasn't there a thread where Andrew and John Morse were running around in the nude having been found by Abby having sex, and one or another of them killed her so she wouldn't tell?

I think John had an airtight alibi for Abby's demise, looking for his nephew then sitting boring the pants off his sick niece at her house, and for Andrew wasn't he walking back home to the Bordens?

[twinsrwe]

Wasn't there a thread where Andrew and John Morse were running around in the nude having been found by Abby having sex, and one or another of them killed her so she wouldn't tell? …

Is this the thread you are thinking of?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2548

[Curryong]

Yes, thank you twinsrwe. Some of this theory you wouldn't believe! It's very funny!