Lizzie Borden Society Forum

One of the more macabre moments on the morning of the murders was told by Bridget. She testified that as she was attempting to let Mr. Borden in and was fumbling with the door locks she heard a laugh come from the upper landing. She did not actually see Lizzie but thought it was her laugh.

In the Knowlton papers, page 43-44, HK035, there is a letter to Knowlton from a citizen, John J. Clancy, of Newark, NJ. Mr. Clancy is convinced of Lizzie's guilt but believes she had an accomplice and Lizzie did not actually do the murders herself. He lists some 12 ideas, one being that the killer was dressed to protect himself from the blood spatterings. He accounts for Lizzie's laugh in this way:

"Fifth: that Lizzy Borden did not actually commit the murders but
stood by and kept watch at a safe distance to avoid any blood stains.
Sixth: that the laughing of Lizzy Borden, as told by Bridget, was caused by
the ridiculous appearance of the murderer covered with the disguise
mentioned."

Not that I believe that as the reason but some of the letters to Knowlton were very creative and knowledgeable.

Personally, I think Lizzie's laugh was more out of nervousness than anything else.

I personally believe that Lizzie was giggling at Bridget having difficultly letting Andrew in the front door. I think she was probably listening at the top of the stairs for the perfect moment to make her entrance after Andrew came inside. When she heard Bridget exclaim she giggled. Seems a bit macabre considering the circumstances but...this has been the conclusion I have always drawn.

When it comes to the killer wearing a disguise, or something to minmize blood splatter, there are three points that have always come to mind. The first fact being that Emma said she had to search around to find a nail on which to hang her dress has always perplexed me. It was because there was no available nail for her to hang her dress that she supposedly asked Lizzie why she had not burned that old paint stained dress. If there was no available nail at the time she wanted to put her dress away, where had it been hanging when she got it in the first place? What I'm getting at is there seems to be an extra dress hanging in the closet at this time? Which now seemed to be occupying a space where Emma's dress might previously have been hanging?

When Emma gave her inventory of dresses which were in the dress closet at the time of the search she stated that all of them belonged to her and Lizzie except one. This one belonged to Abby. Why was Abby's dress hanging in their dress closet? ( I find this inventory suspect since it was not written down until 10 months later from memory.)

The last point concerns the fact that Lizzie's waterproof was hanging in the dress closet at the time of the murders. Alice Russell testified that Lizzie took the key and checked the dress closet at least twice while the police were there. Did it have something to do with her checking on her waterproof?

Makes sense that Bridget's hands were wet from washing that window and had a hard time manipulating all the locks. She told everyone that she said "Oh Pshaw"- but I would rather imagine it was something saltier. This was what Lizzie was laughing at I think. Bridget seemed to put a nicer face on things also when she told the police she was upstairs "tidying her room" when in fact later on she admitted to lying down on her bed and drifting off for a snooze before lunch. I have to wonder too if she might have been chitchatting to the Kelly maid for a good amount of time outside but did not wish to make herself sound like a lazy lump taking advantage of her employers. If Bridget was told Abby had gone out, she might have felt comfortable being unsupervised to take her own time doing her chores, for it does not take an hour to wash those 7 windows on the bottom floor by the method she was using.

I haven't heard that term before. Her "waterproof". Is this an old word for raincoat?

Lizzie might have laughed for any number of reasons, but I think nervousness may be the first to consider. Think of Lizzie's position at that moment, presuming she is aware that Abby is dead. She now has to face her father, who may have had a good idea who was behind the previous robbery. She needs to prepare to lie straight-faced when the inevitable "where's Abby?" comes up. She probably expects that Bridget is wondering the same thing by now because Bridget hasn't seen Abby all morning, either. She tells Andrew, in a voice loud enough for Bridget to overhear, that Abby had a note and has gone out.

Lizzie couldn't possibly have known at the time Bridget heard her laugh that Andrew would lie down for a nap or that Bridget would go to her room, so I don't think she was planning to kill Andrew at that moment. She needed to seem unaware of Abby's death and if she thought Abby was out on a visit, it would explain away her lack of awareness. If Lizzie was planning to go downtown to establish an alibi and Andrew's return thwarted that effort, maybe the laugh came as the result of having just conjured up a story about a note.

The laugh might have been a reaction to Bridget's fumbling and grumbling, but that seems to call for a greater degree of detachment from reality. To find anything humorous at that moment is more than I can imagine. Killing Abby was the easy part, covering it up, especially where her father was concerned, would be nearly impossible. That may be what got Andrew killed.

I think it was Lizzie's job every day to unlock the front door in the morning. I think she was laughing at a) hearing Bridget swear, if she didn't say "pshaw", as Shelley mentions. Or b) she was laughing at the scene because she was the one who locked all the doors.

I think she had the ability to compartmentalize things. The murders was one thing; Andrew comng in was another thing separately, etc. I think that is how she managed to behave so cooly when questioned by the police that morning. It's a common trait of killers/sociopaths (people who have no remorse).

Good God - did Lizzie watch the killing of Abby? I hadn't thought of that before. I imagine it took a certain amount of fortitude to do that. Yes, Mr. Robinson, she would have been a fiend in that case.

A gossamer was a raincoat pretty much. It was water-repellant, made of rubber (?) and 'the girls' each had a plaid one. Emma supposedly took hers to Fairhaven with her. I don't know if the cops saw it or not. It seems that Abby had a black one, and I don't know if the cops saw that or not, either. A gossamer was believed to be - and still is with some of us - what the murderer covered him/herself up with.

When I read that Abby had one dress in the girls' closet, I figured that's all she owned.

I'm surprised that a man who seems so meticulous about things as Andrew, that he misplaced his key that day ...

augusta @ Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:27 am wrote:I think it was Lizzie's job every day to unlock the front door in the morning. I think she was laughing at a) hearing Bridget swear, if she didn't say "pshaw", as Shelley mentions. Or b) she was laughing at the scene because she was the one who locked all the doors.

I agree with this.

In my book excerpt Bridget's Bad Day (Hatchet, Nov 2006) I have Bridget saying "Shite", which is totally what an annoyed Gaelic person would say, esp considering the morning Bridget had. (Victorian niceties be damned...niceties were for the middle class). I believe she softened it to "Pshaw" for her testimony.

Lizzie purposely had left the door locked. Her laughter came as a tension relief plus knowing it was probably Andrew just on the other side of the door when Bridget let out a strong curse word.

I thought Lizzie had already mentioned that note to Bridget that Abby had received earlier in the morning. When she mentioned it to Andrew later, Bridget was hearing that message again.

Bridget's testimony after Mr. Borden was found and Lizzie was in the diningroom would confirm that, as she piped up with something like "If you would tell me where Mrs. Whitehead is, I can go fetch her" (Mrs. Borden). I got the impression Bridget figured Abby had trundled on down to the Whitehead house, that was who the note must have been from.

According to Bridget, she overheard Lizzie telling Andrew about the note. Lizzie later mentioned the note to Bridget while both of them were in the dining room; B doing the windows, Liz ironing hankies. B asked Liz at that point who was sick & Liz replies she doesn't know, but it must be "someone in town".

The only two earlier discussions B mentions having had with Liz were when Liz said she didn't want any breakfast, then the brief encounter at the side door when Liz asks if B is going to wash the windows.

Thanks for clarifying that one. I wonder if Bridget ever wondered where Mrs. B was that morning then. She had not seen her outside, and surely had Mrs. Borden left the house, she would have said something to Bridget about the dinner, whether or not anything was needed at the store for supplies, etc. Maybe Bridget thought Mrs. Borden was upstairs sewing! Imagine if she had gone to ask her a question or see what other chores she had to do and found Mrs. Borden earlier! We would have a whole 'nuther tale!

Maybe Lizzie was still in a crazed state and was laughing at her handywork
like some crazy killers do

I think it was done by one person and one person alone, who would Lizzie trust with her life to keep their mouths shut? Not just then, but for the rest of her life. Even if she gave them a large sum of money, what would stop them from coming back for more? I think Lizzie had such a high opinion of herself, that she never thought for a moment, that anyone would think she did it, or that she would be capable of doing it. What if it wasn't a laugh, but a stiffled sob, that Bridget heard? Not for what she had done but for what she now knew she was going to have to do, kill her father.

augusta @ Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:27 am wrote:I think it was Lizzie's job every day to unlock the front door in the morning. I think she was laughing at a) hearing Bridget swear, if she didn't say "pshaw", as Shelley mentions. Or b) she was laughing at the scene because she was the one who locked all the doors.

I think she had the ability to compartmentalize things. The murders was one thing; Andrew comng in was another thing separately, etc. I think that is how she managed to behave so cooly when questioned by the police that morning. It's a common trait of killers/sociopaths (people who have no remorse).

Good God - did Lizzie watch the killing of Abby? I hadn't thought of that before. I imagine it took a certain amount of fortitude to do that. Yes, Mr. Robinson, she would have been a fiend in that case.

A gossamer was a raincoat pretty much. It was water-repellant, made of rubber (?) and 'the girls' each had a plaid one. Emma supposedly took hers to Fairhaven with her. I don't know if the cops saw it or not. It seems that Abby had a black one, and I don't know if the cops saw that or not, either. A gossamer was believed to be - and still is with some of us - what the murderer covered him/herself up with.

When I read that Abby had one dress in the girls' closet, I figured that's all she owned.

I'm surprised that a man who seems so meticulous about things as Andrew, that he misplaced his key that day ...

I agree that Lizzie was laughing, because she knew the front door was locked, and Bridget probably said "Oh, shit" or something like that. But if Lizzie wore a gossamer, how in the world did she clean it up so neatly? Wouldn't blood drip off of that material very quickly? It wouldn't soak in, but drip down right? It seems to me that a rubber would have dripped blood all over the place?

I agree also that Lizzie was probably laughing at Bridget's explicative, possibly a nervous laugh at hearing the curse word and realizing that whomever was at the front door possibly heard it too.

Scott, from my understanding from reading the blood evidence, there wasn't much blood around the crime scenes except for the pools beneath the bodies; the spattering or drops were at a minimum. If Lizzie was wearing a gossamer while commiting the crime, she might have only been hit with a few spatters or drops of blood, and could have easily wiped those off before they began to run.

I tried doing a search and can't find any info, Abby's raincoat was a gossamer which is a rubberized cloth. Lizzie's raincoat was an "American cloth" which I can't find any sort of description of, the closest I came upon was American broadcloth which is a wool material. I assume whatever material Lizzie's raincoat was made of, it must have been treated in some way to repel water? Abby's gossamer sounds like it was the one to use, if indeed it was used.

That pail of soaking feminine hygiene "towelettes" in the cellar under the sink, which Bridget says she did not recall seeing before on Monday and Tuesday would furnish an ideal clean-up solution. The soft birdseye diaper material from which these homemade and reuseable pads were made is very absorbant. They would have been excellent for washing up face and hands, hair, clothing spots, then dumping conveniently in the pail with the genuine soiled articles. And best of all, they were handy in Lizzie's room, as was her slop pail.

Shelley @ Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:28 pm wrote:That pail of soaking feminine hygiene "towelettes" in the cellar under the sink, which Bridget says she did not recall seeing before on Monday and Tuesday would furnish an ideal clean-up solution. The soft birdseye diaper material from which these homemade and reuseable pads were made is very absorbant. They would have been excellent for washing up face and hands, hair, clothing spots, then dumping conveniently in the pail with the genuine soiled articles. And best of all, they were handy in Lizzie's room, as was her slop pail.

Obviously, if this is what happened, Lizzie would never have gotten away with it today, or even nine years later, when the ABO blood groups were discovered. (See Wikipedia for subsequent discoveries.)

Strangely, fingerprinting had already been used to solve an earlier murder that year in Argentina. (See Francisca Rojas and Juan Vucetich, also in Wikipedia.) Lizzie (or whoever) was very lucky.

Absolutely. Not to mention luminol, and the fact that a crime scene is locked down these days...no nosy neighbours allowed in who might touch the bodies (like George Pettee).

Speaking of blood, Lizzie, if the killer, never thought to say she entered the sitting room and flung herself on her father's body. This would, or could, explain any blood on her person.

And if the hatchet could not be traced to her (and the police were not able to find any evidence she purchased one) she could have simply left it there besides the body. She could even say she picked up the hatchet to account for any fingerprints.

No dress to get rid of. No hatchet to get rid of. And she would have even looked more sympathetic to boot.

Pure speculation as of course she didn't do either. She may not have even done the murder herself.

What if Andrew's early return (as speculated upon by Miss Lincoln) really was a surprise, and Lizzie's reaction was a gasp, which she turned into a laugh? We only have Bridget's word that she heard a laugh, per se.

I do not think Lizzie was planning to kill her father, and that she had to improvise like hell. For all we know she might've believed that she could talk to him and tell him something had happened, and wouldn't he please protect her? Maybe this is why she tried to get Bridget out of the house. It's just as easy to suppose that she'd already made up her mind to kill Andrew as soon as he'd gotten home, and that she wanted Bridget out of the way for that event. Still, we'll never know what words might've passed between Lizzie and Andrew prior to his death out of Bridget's hearing, will we?

Here is the questioning at the trial, of Emma, about the "waterproofs"

Q. I don’t know as I will bother about that. Did any of the members of your family have waterproofs?
A. Yes, we all had them.

Q. What kind were they?
A. Mrs. Borden’s was a gossamer, rubber.

Q. That is, you mean rubber on the outside?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And black?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was that hanging?
A. I think she kept it in the little press at the foot of the front stairs in the front hall.

Q. Did Miss Lizzie have one too?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did she keep hers?
A. In the clothes press at the top of the stairs.

Q. What kind of one was that?
A. Blue and brown plaid, an American cloth.

Q. And you had one too?
A. Mine was gossamer.

Q. Did you have yours with you in Fairhaven?
A. I did.

Page 1569

Q. So that was not at the house while you were gone?
A. No, sir.

--It sounds like Lizzie's was different than Emma's & Abbie's. Those two had gossamer, Lizzie had "America Cloth" that was plaid.

In the clothes press at the top of the stairs, there were a few heavy silk dresses that were not checked. I was of a mind that Abbie's best dress might have been one of these and account for one dress of hers being stored in there.

As for Andrew "misplacing" his key- it was qualified by Bridget that he did have his key that morning.

Here is Bridget at the Prelim.
It includes Andrew's key and Lizzie's laugh, for those who don't have the prelim.

Q. Have you any idea what time that was?
A. It might be later than half past ten; I could not tell.

Q. What locks on the front door did you find locked when you let him in?
A. The bolt and a common key that I turned on both sides.

Q. Anythingelse?
A. No Sir.

Q. A spring lock?
A. Yes Sir. He had a key.

Q. He unlocked that from the outside?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was that spring lock set to lock the door up when it was shut?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Up to the time you let Mr. Borden in, had you seen Miss Lizzie?
A. She was up stairs at the time I let him in.

Q. Where up stairs?
A. She might be in the hall, for I heard her laugh.

Q. Up the back or front stairs?
A. The front stairs.

Q. At the time you let Mr. Borden in?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was that the first you had heard or seen of her since you spoke to her at the back door?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. You had not seen her or Mrs. Borden during the intermediate time?
A. No Sir.

Q. What was the occasion of her laugh?
A. I got puzzled on the door, I said something, and she laughed at it; I supposed that must make her laugh, I dont know.

Q. She laughed when you said something?
A. Yes Sir. I did not expect the door was locked. I went to open it. I was puzzled; I went to unlock it twice.

Q. What was it you said, if it is not too bad to repeat?
A. No. I did not say much.

Page 20

Q. Some exclamation you made when you had trouble with the door?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was that the time she laughed?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did she laugh out loud?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Say anything?
A. No Sir.

Q. Did you see her then?
A. No Sir.

Q. How soon did you see her?
A. It might be five or ten minutes after she came down stairs; she came through the front hall, I dont know whether she came from up stairs. She came through the sitting room, I was in the sitting room.

Fingerprinting existed in 1892 but was not used to solve crimes. They did, tho, believe in how the shape of someone's head pre-dispositioned them to being a criminal.

They did not test even the hoodoo hatchet for fingerprints?

Yes! This crime would have went so differently had it occurred at a future date. Especially from the 20th century on. She would not have bought the jury with a demure dress and fan, nor impressed anyone by her good works in her lifetime. But with her money, I believe she still would have been acquitted even if they saw her with the axe in her hand dripping blood.

There was a thing about the spring lock. To show that the spring lock jammed on its own at times, one of Lizzie's female supporters (I want to say Mrs. Brigham or Mrs. Holmes) tried messing around with that spring lock shortly after the murders, and she found that it did indeed get stuck all on its own. She testified on this for the defense, to show that Lizzie may not have puposely locked that lock. Still there were two others ...

I don't believe she did anything but laugh, and for laughter's sake. A nervous laugh? I can't see it. I don't think she was laughing because of Abby's murder. I think it was simply because of Bridget and that door. Lizzie liked a good laugh.

augusta @ Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:23 pm wrote:Fingerprinting existed in 1892 but was not used to solve crimes.

It was just beginning to be used to solve crimes. (As I mentioned, it was used to solve a murder in Argentina that very year.)

Constantine - I don't doubt you. I just meant to say - and should have said - the United States.

I should have figured that. Sorry if I got a bit testy.

Constantine - I didn't think your post was testy at all. It's very nice to apologize, and thank you anyway.

Maybe Lizzie was laughng at Bridget's expletive before she realized that Bridget was opening the door for her father. If she was standing at the top of the stairs she may not have known it was her dad that Bridget was fussing at the door for, and then she got the shock of her life when she realized it was Andrew coming in early. She may not have seen the amusement had she realized that her plans were going awry.

Another thing re the locks. The books say that it was Lizzie's job to open the dead bolt to the front door every morning. But it was not open that morning, or it had been rebolted just before Abby's murder. When Lizzie (or whomever, but I believe it was Lizzie) opened the front door for the man who knocked that morning and then slammed it in his face, the door would have again been rebolted because later Bridget had to open the deadbolt to let Andrew in. Andrew was accustomed to having the front deadbolt open during the day, so, once he got in, he probably wouldn't have rebolted it. Which means someone else did after he got home, because the police found it bolted after his murder. So, three times the dead bolt, which was always unlocked during the day, was refastened.

I've discovered what Lizzie was laughing at...............Sylvia Browne

Angel @ Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:11 am wrote:Another thing re the locks. The books say that it was Lizzie's job to open the dead bolt to the front door every morning. But it was not open that morning, or it had been rebolted just before Abby's murder. When Lizzie (or whomever, but I believe it was Lizzie) opened the front door for the man who knocked that morning and then slammed it in his face, the door would have again been rebolted because later Bridget had to open the deadbolt to let Andrew in. Andrew was accustomed to having the front deadbolt open during the day, so, once he got in, he probably wouldn't have rebolted it. Which means someone else did after he got home, because the police found it bolted after his murder. So, three times the dead bolt, which was always unlocked during the day, was refastened.

This is a little rough-maybe I'm not understanding-- can you explain or give some sort of source for the story?
Thanks! I'm confused...

Kat @ Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:34 am wrote:

Angel @ Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:11 am wrote:Another thing re the locks. The books say that it was Lizzie's job to open the dead bolt to the front door every morning. But it was not open that morning, or it had been rebolted just before Abby's murder. When Lizzie (or whomever, but I believe it was Lizzie) opened the front door for the man who knocked that morning and then slammed it in his face, the door would have again been rebolted because later Bridget had to open the deadbolt to let Andrew in. Andrew was accustomed to having the front deadbolt open during the day, so, once he got in, he probably wouldn't have rebolted it. Which means someone else did after he got home, because the police found it bolted after his murder. So, three times the dead bolt, which was always unlocked during the day, was refastened.

This is a little rough-maybe I'm not understanding-- can you explain or give some sort of source for the story?
Thanks! I'm confused...

Sorry- missed this along the way.

I am at work now, so I cannot look everything up that I wrote here, so maybe someone can help me. Or tell me if I got this wrong.

1. Wasn''t it brought up that Lizzie was the one who usually unbolted the night lock to the front door in the morning?

2. Didn't someone see a man come to the front door around 9 am and then see the door slammed in his face?

3. Didn't Bridget have to fiddle with the deadbolt because Andrew couldn't get through the door with his key for the day lock?

4. Didn't Officer Allen find the door bolted after Andrew's murder, which meant that someone had to have again secured the deadbolt after Andrew had arrived, even though it was the custom to leave that one unlocked during the day?

1)
Emma, Inquest, page 114 (21):

Q. Was it the habit to keep the front door locked with the spring lock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How about the bolt and the big lock?
A. We used those only when we went to bed.
Q. When did they get unlocked in the morning?
A. Usually when my sister or I came down stairs, one or the other unlocked them.

In Emma's absence, Lizzie would have probably taken the responsibility.

2) Sorry, I can't find anything for this.

3)Lizzie, Inquest, page 61 (18):

Q. Who let your father in?
A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said
he had forgotten his key; so I think she must have been down stairs.
Q. His key would have done him no good if the locks were left as you left them?
A. But they were always unbolted in the morning.
Q. Who unbolted them that morning?
A. I don't think they had been unbolted; Maggie can tell you.
Q. If he had not forgotten his key it would have been no good?
A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten
his key.
Q. You did not hear him say anything about it?
A. I heard his voice, but I don't know what he said.
Q. I understood you to say he said he had forgotten his key?
A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten the key.

Bridget, Trial, pages 234-235:

Q. When you got to the front door what did you find the condition of the locks there?
A. I went to open it, caught it by the knob, the spring lock, as usual, and it was locked. I
unbolted it and it was locked with a key.
Q. So that there were three locks?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do with reference to the lock with the key?
A. I unlocked it. As I unlocked it I said, "Oh pshaw," and Miss Lizzie laughed, up
stairs,---Her father was out there on the door step. She was up stairs.
Q. Up stairs; could you tell whereabouts up stairs she was when she laughed?
A. Well, she must be either in the entry or in the top of the stairs, I can't tell which.
Q. Was there any talk passed between you and Mr. Borden as he came to the door?
A. No, sir; not a word.
Q. I am reminded that one question was unanswered. How many locks on the front
door were locked as you went there,---locks and bolts, I mean?
A. There was a bolt and there was a spring lock, and there was a key.
Q. And those were all locked?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. During the morning hours, usually, was that door kept locked otherwise than by the
spring lock?
A. I don't know anything about the door; I didn't have nothing to do to it.

4)Officer Allen, Trial, page 434:

Q. Then where did you go as you went through the sitting room?
A. I went to the front door, front hall.
Q. Describe exactly what you did at the front hall.
A. I looked at the door and the door was locked with a night lock and also with a bolt,
bolted.
Q. In any other way, did you notice?
A. No, sir. There was a lock under the knob, but I don't know whether that was locked
or not.
Q. But the night lock was locked?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the bolt was locked?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you interfere with the door at all?
A. No, sir.

#2 is another Lincoln-ism. From page 79:

"A buggy with two men in it made a U-turn and stopped in front of the Kelly cottage.
Next, a witness observed that the buggy had one man in it. The witness gave him only a casual glance and did not recognize him---apparently he left the neighborhood almost at once, for he was not seen again.
At approximately the same time---"around nine"---another observer saw a young man go to the Bordens' front door and ring the bell. The door was opened and quickly slammed in his face---by Andrew, it has long been assumed, though this was reported by a neighbor on the same side of the street, not a vantage point for seeing into the Bordens' hall. (The assumption has rested on the fact that under normal conditions Andrew was the only likely door-slammer in the household.)"

A neighbor on the same side of the street? Now who can that be -----

It's no where else but in Lincoln that I know of.

Thanks.
So Lincoln could have been embellishing the man at the door thing?

Ooops, spoke too soon.

From Fleet's notes in the Witness statements regarding his conversation with Lizzie (p2):

"Have you any idea who could have done this?" "No, I do not know that my father had bad trouble with anyone. But about two weeks ago a man called, and they had some talk about a shop; and father told him that he could not have it for that purpose. The man talked as though he was angry; did not know who he was, did not see him, could not tell all that he said. A man came here this morning about nine o'clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away."

The door was deadbolt locked at least twice if it had been unbolted for either the 9 o'clock visitor or first thing in the morning. Once for Andrew's return and once again when officer Allen found it.

""No, I do not know that my father had bad trouble with anyone"

This is sure not what she told Alice Russell Wednesday night. She impressed that she was sure the house would be burnt down around them. Yet another incidence of wildly conflicting stories.

Of course, if one was trying to sneak in to kill somebody, he would hardly walk in the front door to do it in full view of a zillion people on Second Street- many of whom seem to have spent the day glaring at #92! . That screen door on the side of the house was unlocked part of the time at least and would have been a far likelier entree for a potential murderer.

If someone were to sneak in, the side door would be perfect because that person could go immediately from that little hall right down into the basement to hide.

She alsp zapped dear Uncle Hiram with an accusation as I remember. That was probably more a "turnabout is fair play" sort of thing tho.

Uncle Hiram had hung Lizzie out to dry previous to her identifying him as someone her father didn't get along with. Lizzie didn't seem to think much of either Uncle Hiram or Uncle John. I wonder if she was embarrassed to be related to a farmer and a blacksmith?

I dunno, Yooper. There's a myriad of possibilities on that one.

The question though is a good one - did anyone within the sphere of Andrew's business dealings harbor a motivation that would lead to murder? There's a difference 'twixt "You're a hard and dirty skunk, sir" and "Take that, and that - and that!"

As for the sneaker possibility, wouldn't - it's possible of course, but if the screen door-latch was open... I mean we're talking about some very tight - and lucky - choreography there, no?

That still leaves wide-open the matter of the body in the upstairs room, to boot.

I think I've just figured out the inconsistency I seem to sense whenever I try to envision sneaking and hiding as part of the Borden murders. I can't reconcile sneaking and hiding with taking a hatchet to someone's head in broad daylight in the middle of town. The concepts seem diametrically opposed.

Yooper @ Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:01 pm wrote:Inever I try to envision sneaking and hiding as part of the Borden murders. I can't reconcile sneaking and hiding with taking a hatchet to someone's head in broad daylight in the middle of town. The concepts seem diametrically opposed.

Oh boy- did you ever say a mouthful there! Say an irrate killer did sneak in and not finding Andy handy- decided to whack poor old Abby. Then he decides to sit and cool his heels and press his luck even further and WAIT and work himself into a wrath again. Maybe HE was reading Harpers down in the basement and having a snack from the fruit cellar while awaiting Andrew and praying Lizzie did not have to visit the loo.

Was Hannibal Lechter around back then?

No- and there probably was no dry Chianti in the Borden basement either! Although fava beans are a Portuguese favorite!

That's the type of personality we're talking about when we suggest an intruder cooling his heels for an hour and a half.

Yooper @ Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:39 pm wrote:Was Hannibal Lechter around back then?

Yooper @ Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:44 pm wrote:That's the type of personality we're talking about when we suggest an intruder cooling his heels for an hour and a half.

I agree, Jeff. Can't you just picture a lunatic waiting for Andrew??? Hmmm, lets see... Yep - there he is!!!

Who needs Hannibal? A nice can of pork and beans, a nip of grape juice laced with vinegar – and an unbelievably strong urge to kill. Throw in some ability to manipulate and cajole…poof! Murder most foul, in two hours or less.

Judy, that's perfect! Peering out the front closet door! Check the expression around the eyes and compare it to Lizzie's post-trial photo--the one with the chair.

doug65oh @ Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:35 pm wrote:Who needs Hannibal? A nice can of pork and beans, a nip of grape juice laced with vinegar – and an unbelievably strong urge to kill. Throw in some ability to manipulate and cajole…poof! Murder most foul, in two hours or less.

Throw in some hard boiled eggs....most foul, indeed!