Lizzie Borden Society Forum

A friend of mine once said that murder victims are responsible for their own deaths. At the time I thought it was a very stupid thing to say - after all - children murdered by their own parents through neglect and physical cruelty are hardly responsible for their own demise. Then I thought of Andrew's behaviour towards Lizzie. First, there was a history of Lizzie's shoplifting, when shopkeepers presented their bills to Andrew to pay (which I was unaware of). There was the very suspicious robbery when only Abby's jewellery was taken. Andrew dismissed the police halfway through the investigation because he knew the culprit. Lizzie was then "rewarded" with a European trip. We don't know whether Andrew was aware of Lizzie expressing her dislike of Abby to all and sundry, but the atmosphere within the Borden household must have been extremely unpleasant as the sisters refused to talk to Abby unless absolutely necessary. As Andrew was a wealthy man he could easily have afforded to buy his daughters their own house. It wasn't unknown for single women in the 1890s to live apart from their parents (their friend Alice Russell lived apart from her mother - though Miss Russell was employed). Maybe this is a very 21st century view of the situation, but Andrew didn't seem to take a firmer line with Lizzie.

I wonder, though, whether Lizzie would have tolerated this. She was known to be quite lazy in the household.

What do other users think?

I've bought yet another Lizzie book recently, by William Spencer. Honestly, I'm a total obsessive about the Borden case.

Good morning JCurrie! First I want to mention that if the Spencer book you bought was "Case Against Lizzie Borden", you have made an excellent choice to read an accurate and balanced presentation of the case.

To your post, conceptually, I imagine everyone who is murdered did something to expose themselves to harm. Didn't lock up, go somewhere sketchy, talk 'mean' to other people, or in the example you note, don't establish consequences for rude behavior within your household.

However, in none of those situations, is it the victims fault they are harmed. That took a violent and unnecessary act on the part of the culprit.

Lizzie and Emma did own a 2-apartment building at 12 Ferry Street that Andrew had given them in 1887, likely in response to family tension that year. So that would be another example of Andrew possibly reacting to the sisters rude behavior by acquiescence. On the flipside, AJB bought that very same building back from the sisters for $5,000 just weeks before the murders. $5,000 in 1892 would be worth ~$170k of purchasing power today.

I am not aware of any primary document or contemporary newspaper article which substantiates the rumor/myth that Lizzie was a shoplifter prior to the murders. Did you read that in Lincoln's book or one of the other 'novels' about the case? If so, back to Spencer's books, there is none of that unsourced 'gossipy' stuff in his book.

Wasn't clear if you were connecting the Europe trip to the house burglary, but if you were, the Europe voyage was in 1890 and the burglary was in 1891.

Since I am in the 'Lizzie was the sole or co-culprit of the murders' camp, I lean towards the motive being an overwhelming sense of entitlement to the family fortune and the lifestyle it should have provided. Something had or was happening in the background that caused Lizzie to decide she needed to take action to secure what was rightfully hers. In my opinion, parents (myself included, father of 4) certainly contribute to our children's personality and behaviors as adults. That said, and for the most part, we are not responsible for their actions or decisions.

As you learn the case, what are you viewing as the motive (Lizzie or someone else)?

Dear camgarsky4

Thank you for your response. I believe I read stories about Lizzie's shoplifting in Rebecca Pittman's book. I don't know her sources at all. There was an incidence of her shoplifting in 1897 at a store in Providence, when a friend of hers had brought a piece of porcelain into the store to be restored. The assistant recognised the piece as one which had been stolen and asked the lady where she had bought it. The friend said it was a gift from Lizzie Borden. Robert Sullivan mentioned it in his book, but where he got the story from, I don't know.

I agree with you about Lizzie being the sole culprit of the murders. I don't know what co-culprit that would be. Pittman calls her a sociopath and Lizzie certainly meets the criteria of some of those traits. (Page 187 of her book outlines them). And she certainly didn't show any Christian love for her stepmother, expressing her dislike to Mrs Raymond and Ms Borden (maybe there were others). Bridget testified in court that when Abby was ill one time, neither of the sisters bothered to visit her.

I think you'll really like Spencer's book....enjoy!