Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Something that strikes me as odd is that the Bordens did not seem to do things together as a family. Did they ever do things as a family such as attending church, shopping, just normal things that families often do? Did they get together for special occasions like birthdays, weddings, anniversaries? It seems like everyone in that household was looking out for themselves. Andrew did his thing, Abby hers, etc..... And they all seem so paranoid and untrusting of one another. I wonder if they were a closer family before Abby came into the picture? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I've wondered if Andrew was sick and tired of social life from living with old Abraham and that menage for so many years. Maybe he just wanted to stay home.

I don't know about Abby. Her character intrigues me; she and Emma seem so shadowy next to Lizzie's flamboyant desire for purple velvet curtains and Andrew's relentless cash-hoarding.

Did Abby and Andrew ever have long quiet evenings together? Were they close but undemonstrative? Why did he marry her? She didn't have money, though she had a respected name. Maybe he loved her. Or maybe he thought Emma needed a grown woman to guide her through puberty and adolescence. (Remember that menarche occurred later in those days.)

Life in that house, with all the unspoken tensions, must have been difficult. But trying to imagine how it was is useless without more information than I have now. So I'll go back to delving without offering any opinion. Just a few additional questions.

Lynn

Mrs. Holmes says that Abby and Lizzie went to church together. She doesn't mention Emma. It's said that Andrew did not attend the same church.
Lizzie may have joined charities in order to get out of the house? Emma did not join these tho.
We can be pretty sure that Lizzie's birthday was celebrated! Even if it was for the elder Bordens to go to Swansea.
I think when the girls were younger they went to Swansea as a family. Later though we hear tell of the family going and Lizzie staying in town.

Trial
Mrs. Holmes
1499
Q. Did you know Mrs. Abby Borden, her stepmother?
A. I was but very little acquainted with her. I have known her for a great many years---know who she was: no particular acquaintance with her.

Q. Did she attend church there?
A. She did.

Q. The same church?
A. She did.

Page 1499

Q. Have you within a year of the murder, say, seen Miss Lizzie and her step mother going to church together?
A. I did.

Q. Did they sit together?
A. They did.

Q. Go away together?
A. They did.

I think lizzie and emma might have done things together, but I don't think that they would have done things with abbey. They didn't like her. They might have done things with Andrew, as long as Abbey wasn't with them. They weren't to crazy about Abbey.

Kat @ Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:52 pm wrote: It's said
Lizzie may have joined charities in order to get out of the house? Emma did not join these tho.

I'm not sure where I read it, and I'm looking it up just to make sure I understood it correctly, but I read somewhere that if a woman didn't marry in the victorian era, she was expected to dedicate her life to worthwhile endeavors to serve the community such as being involved with charity organizations and the church. In those times if a woman did not marry, she was considered a figure to be pitied because she did not fulfill the woman's ultimate goal of marriage and a family. By participating in charities and church activities she gained back some of the respect of the community she had otherwise lost because she did not marry. So in essence a respectable woman's life was devoted to either marriage and a family, or to serving the community.

Yes thanks I think I knew something about that.
Lizzie started pretty late though in her charities and Emma never did.
Lizzie joined the CCC, and its activities around 1885, making her 25 years old. That was an old maid in those days.
Previous to Lizzie joining the CCC, her family had been members of the First CC.
Wm. Almy, Andrew's business partner from the past, died that year as well.
What would make Lizzie up and join these charities at age 25?

Smudgeman @ Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:40 am wrote:Something that strikes me as odd is that the Bordens did not seem to do things together as a family. Did they ever do things as a family such as attending church, shopping, just normal things that families often do? Did they get together for special occasions like birthdays, weddings, anniversaries? It seems like everyone in that household was looking out for themselves. Andrew did his thing, Abby hers, etc..... And they all seem so paranoid and untrusting of one another. I wonder if they were a closer family before Abby came into the picture? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Didn't they take summer vacations together at the farm in Swansea for many years? This just occured to me after rereading this thread. I believe that they would all vacation at the farm in Swansea for a few weeks during the summer or something like that.

Thank you Allen, I originally wanted to know if the Bordens did things as a family group, I mean all of them, not just Lizzie and Abby going to church, but if the entire family did things together. I remember my family vacations as a young teen, I was just curious if the Bordens did that as well, I would love to have been a fly on the wall back then.

Allen, I'm sure you've read about women dedicating themselves to charity work many places as it was one of those things found in traditional "how to be good" manuals.

Kat @ Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:21 pm wrote:Yes thanks I think I knew something about that.
Lizzie started pretty late though in her charities and Emma never did.
Lizzie joined the CCC, and its activities around 1885, making her 25 years old. That was an old maid in those days.<snip>
What would make Lizzie up and join these charities at age 25?

I have an idea about that, based on years of church involvement and far too many moves. When you're joining a new church, one of the best ways to get to know people is to volunteer. Sure, Fall River was a small city, but places that size can be pitiless when someone is trying to change their social circle.

Also, frankly, I bet Lizzie was dying of boredom. All she had to occupy her time was the dubious pleasure of family life and the imaginary world in the books she read. No real responsibilities and no power and not a lot of amusement. No job, no husband, no kids, no Internet or TV or radio. With that kind of death-in-life, it amazes me that she didn't turn the hatchet on herself.

Lynn

"I think when the girls were younger they went to Swansea as a family. Later though we hear tell of the family going and Lizzie staying in town." --Kat

This was part of my answer Scott, as well as Lizzie and Abby going to church together.

Snokkums may not think they did go to church together so since there is testimony that they did, I guess she should show that they didn't.

It's been said that Lizzie liked to fish with Andrew and she says Andrew carved that club at the farm when she was a little girl (about 15). So at least until 15 it is implied that Lizzie and family were visiting the farm. They also seem to have traveled to Chicago together as well, when Lizzie was young.

However, in later years I don't think they went to the farm as a family. Mrs. Tripp said that she had visited the previous summer, sounds about the time around Lizzie's birthday, and Mrs. Borden had gone to Sawnsea but Lizzie and Emma were still at home.
Also Lizzie had gone to church escorted by Dr. Bowen while her parents were away. No knowing when they stopped doing "family" things.

Abbey and Amdrew never struck me as the type of couple that had romantic dinners together. Everything I have ever read was that he basically married her for a live in baby sitter for when the girls were younger. When Emma and Lizzie were grown, I think she outlived her usefullness, so he wasn't interested in her.

What I am saying is that I think that emma and lizzie went together to church, but not with there father and step mother I could be wrong though they all might have gone together for all I know

Everything I have ever read was that he basically married her for a live in baby sitter for when the girls were younger. When Emma and Lizzie were grown, I think she outlived her usefullness, so he wasn't interested in her.

I've read that before too, Snokkums, but, it has never made any sense to me. "Andrew married Abby for a babysitter, housekeeper, etc." When Andrew Borden married Abby in 1865, Emma was 14 and Lizzie was almost 5, they were all still living in Abraham Borden's house on Ferry Street. Emma would have been in school and given the young age that most women married in that time, I think she would have been considered a young lady already. She probably would have needed female guidance, but, I don't think she would have needed a babysitter. Lizzie on the other hand had her Aunt Lurana around the house, her step-grandmother, Bebe, and some sort of maid at the time to look after her and she was almost ready for kindergarten.

By the time Andrew bought and moved into 92 Second Street in 1872, Lizzie was 12 and Emma was like 21.

I think Andrew must have genuinely cared for Abby when he married her though part of it may have been a standard for the times that he was expected to remarry. I've always wondered why there were never any children from their union, as far as I know, nothing was ever mentioned about Abby being barren? Andrew did put a piece of property in his wife's name, I don't think you would do that for someone that you weren't interested in anymore. [/quote]

This concept of Abby as only *housekeeper* comes from Emma's inquest testimony.

It's important to note though, that the questioner (Knowlton) is the one who puts that word "housekeeper* into the record. Emma only assents.
Basically, he is putting words in her mouth, and his words are not testimony.

Emma at inquest, 108:
Q. Who kept the house, your step mother, that is, who had charge of the management?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She filled the place of housekeeper?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have, yourself, any particular duty in connection with the house?
A. Some things I always did.
Q. What were they?
A. I always took charge of the parlor, my sister and I, we always took charge of the guest chamber and our own rooms.
Q. That is, you and your sister did that?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Not your separate duty, but yours and hers?
A. I did most of it, sometimes she assisted.
Q. Did your mother never have charge of the guest chamber?
109
A. I did not know that she ever did. When I was home I dont think she ever did.
Q. You dont know how it happened that she was having the work of the guest chamber on this morning that she died?
A. No Sir.
Q. Any other duties that you and Lizzie did about the house, regular duties I mean?
A. No. I dont think there was anything that we did steadily; just a as we felt, if we wanted to, we did.

--I put a little more testimony than needed because it is so interesting to see these duties of the girls.

I never read anything about Abby being barren, but it is a possabilty. Or she just married to late to have children. Both can be the situation, or as Emma said she was just the house keeper.

The point of the posting of testimony was to show that Knowlton called Abby the housekeeper, not Emma. Emma did not call her that.

It was a mans world - ah how did I miss it?

Kat @ Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:18 pm wrote:This concept of Abby as only *housekeeper* comes from Emma's inquest testimony.

Thanks for finding that, Kat. Once Andrew moved into #92 he would have needed a wife to fill in that role as housekeeper (manager of the house) or a woman servant who acted as housekeeper. Before, while still living in Abraham's home, I don't think Andrew would have needed a housekeeper with the other women there to fill the role. Thats why I think he must have genuinely cared for Abby when he married her, I don't think it was from need.