Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Lets say you are a hired killer, and you are to kill Mr. and Mrs. Borden. You are the killer, and whomever hired you is the killee.
What did you do right or wrong?
The easiest way to kill them would be on the street. It seems though that they were rarely on the street together, and if you went street you would have to do both at once, and Mother has to die first.
So you have to kill them both when they're together somewhere else. Probably the only place is their house.
So you work with the killee and get conditions optimal. You say we want the least noise in the hood. We want Father gone when Mother is being done. We want no one in or around.
So the day is set up when Bridget is out washing windows. The day is also the policeman's picnic, so good. Emma is away on her first extended visit out of town in forty years, so good, killee. Uncle John stops by but luckily for him he drifts away. Father especially goes out that day to check mail, so good, killee.
And the killer reminds the killee, because the killer knows about junk, you know that if it do they are gonna suspect you. The killee says that's cool.
The killee asks the killer two questions. Why not use a gun? How are you gonna get out of here?
The killer smiles a lonely smile, and says, "see you again."

john @ Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:06 pm wrote: So you work with the killee and get conditions optimal. You say we want the least noise in the hood. We want Father gone when Mother is being done. We want no one in or around.
So the day is set up when Bridget is out washing windows. The day is also the policeman's picnic, so good. Emma is away on her first extended visit out of town in forty years, so good, killee. Uncle John stops by but luckily for him he drifts away. Father especially goes out that day to check mail, so good, killee.

You have said something that gained my attention John. Is it coincidental that the murders were committed on the day of the police picnic? I'm sure it would've been posted in the local papers days beforehand. I know this question has probably been addressed before, but I am curious about that myself.

Well I think what they did wrong, was killing them in the house with too people in the house that could be witnesses. Which leds me to think that Lizzie and Bridget might have hired the killer. They knew the killer. Thats the only thing that makes sense or they killed them their selves.

I messed up on the term "killee." Was thinking of what my stockbroker told me when he tried to sell me a new issue.
He said, "remember, I am the broker, and you are the brokee."

Love your pic snokkums. Art that talks and lives.

I think the police had a reputation for having their party every year at Rocky Point- and the news was common knowledge, or advertised or readily available.

I understood the "killee" aspect because you explained.

I want to know why these folks weren't killed out in the country- like at the farm? Was there a reason it had to be at Second Street?
I mean, did the killee figure goods and services were close by for after-the-fact (like Winward the Undertaker), and reckoned they didn't wish to bother shipping the bodies back to Fall River from Swansea- and all the people who would be coming to the funeral were already, maybe, in town?

I thought was pretty cool too. It's a VAnGogh.

well, actually it's a Munch -- a detail from The Scream (van Gogh was an influence, to be sure). and by some coincidence i bought a Munch book of prints this past weekend.

I think you are right, John. What better day to do the deed. Emma is washing windows and the police are having a pinic,and Bridget is in the basement washing clothes, and lizzie is eating a pear. The only problem with this scenario is that wasn't lizzie at the top of the stairs laughing? And then called down to the maid, Bridget? Or is that another scenario?

:bigcrowd: I think she could have hired someone to do her dirty work. I don't think she would have had the guts to do it herself :bigcrowd:

***I want to know why these folks weren't killed out in the country- like at the farm? Was there a reason it had to be at Second Street?
I mean, did the killee figure goods and services were close by for after-the-fact (like Winward the Undertaker), and reckoned they didn't wish to bother shipping the bodies back to Fall River from Swansea- and all the people who would be coming to the funeral were already, maybe, in town?***

isn't that a relevant question in all this? Why were they still on second street instead of already at the farm? there was a very good reason for them to stay away from swansea this year? morse's visit to the place was supposed to help?

It would make sense that would be killed outside, but you would have to make it where they were out at the same time same place, or have two separate killers

snokkums @ Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:54 am wrote:I think you are right, John. What better day to do the deed. Emma is washing windows and the police are having a pinic,and Bridget is in the basement washing clothes, and lizzie is eating a pear. The only problem with this scenario is that wasn't lizzie at the top of the stairs laughing? And then called down to the maid, Bridget? Or is that another scenario?

Is this for real?
Emma is washing windows and Bridget is in the basement washing clothes?
And now you can spell "scenario?" Twice!

snokkums @ Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:54 am wrote:
I think you are right, John. What better day to do the deed. Emma is washing windows and the police are having a pinic,and Bridget is in the basement washing clothes, and lizzie is eating a pear. The only problem with this scenario is that wasn't lizzie at the top of the stairs laughing? And then called down to the maid, Bridget? Or is that another scenario?

Is this for real?
Emma is washing windows and Bridget is in the basement washing clothes?
And now you can spell "scenario?" Twice!

Uh...Emma was in Fairhaven and Bridget was washing windows upstairs and outside ?...or talking over the fence to the Kelly's domestic, or occasionally tossing her cookies out back ?


Tracy...

Haulover @ Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:43 am wrote:isn't that a relevant question in all this? Why were they still on second street instead of already at the farm? there was a very good reason for them to stay away from swansea this year? morse's visit to the place was supposed to help?

Apparently the Bordens could not go if Mrs. Vinnicum could not go with them. She was expecting her sister from the west and if that sister came, Mrs. Vinnicum could not accompany the Bordens.
Apparently they were waiting. I don't know if they gave up tho.

The newspapers had rumors later that Andrew confided to his friend that he was having too much family trouble at that time to leave anytime soon.

opps sorry got my facts wrong.

Because the Bordens were waiting, maybe that is more
*proof* that the killer could not wait and it had to happen in town.

I was thinking about them being killed at the farm, and it might have taken longer for the bodies to be found, especially if the woman staying with them was out.
Like Bertha Manchester- no one thought anything of loud noises in the *country*, nor barking dogs, and she wasn't found for hours.

Maybe these bodies had to be found quickly. Which they were.

snokkums @ Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:47 am wrote:opps sorry got my facts wrong.

Can you tell me how that happened, do you know?

(Singing to Kat)

No New Years Day to celebrate,
No chocolate covered candy hearts to give away,
No first of spring, no song to sing,
In fact, here's just another ordinary day.

I just posted to say I love you;
I just posted to say how much I care;
I just posted to say I love you,
And I mean it from the bottom of my heart.

No April rain, no flowers' bloom,
No wedding Saturday within the month of June.
But what it is, is something true
Made up of these three words that I must say to you.

I just posted to say I love you;
I just posted to say how much I care;
I just posted to say I love you,
And I mean it from the bottom of my heart.

No summer's high, no warm July,
No harvest moon to light one tender August night,
No autumn breeze, no falling leaves,
Not even time for birds to fly to southern skies.

I just posted to say I love you;
I just posted to say how much I care;
I just posted to say I love you,
And I mean it from the bottom of my heart.

No Libra sun, no Halloween,
No giving thanks for all the Christmas joy you bring,
But what it is, though old, so new,
To fill your heart like no three words could ever do.

I just posted to say I love you;
I just posted to say how much I care;
I just posted to say I love you,
And I mean it from the bottom of my heart.

That was great Auds ! Do you know..."I live right next door to..." ?


Tracy...

Kat @ Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:32 pm wrote:Because the Bordens were waiting, maybe that is more
*proof* that the killer could not wait and it had to happen in town.

I was thinking about them being killed at the farm, and it might have taken longer for the bodies to be found, especially if the woman staying with them was out.
Like Bertha Manchester- no one thought anything of loud noises in the *country*, nor barking dogs, and she wasn't found for hours.

Maybe these bodies had to be found quickly. Which they were.

Quickly enough to tell that Abby had died first?

If they had gone to the farm, with Emma in Fairhaven and Lizzie at Marion, it could have taken much longer for them to be discovered.

After a day or so in even moderate August heat, the bodies would have been starting to get pretty rank. I doubt whether anyone at that time could have told whether Andrew or Abby had died first. And -- if this was a murder by Andrew's heirs for gain, or designed to look like one -- Abby had to be visibly dead well before Andrew was, or her heirs would get a wife's portion of the estate, will or no will.

Forgive me if I'm being too specific or repeating things you already are aware of. I'm trying to cross the T's and dot the I's.

Lynn

More reason to believe that the timing of the deaths was all-important.

I think the timing had a lot to do with everyone being gone from the house.Though Lizzie claims not to have seen Morse during her visit, she could've heard him. She could have heard him discussing his plans for the next day with Abby and Andrew in the sitting room. So Uncle John was not going to be there for most of the morning, her Father would be away most of the morning also, and what unbelievable luck, Bridget would be outside washing windows. Did Abby mention the night before in conversation that she would request that Bridget wash the windows the next day? Since nobody knows what they talked about anything is possible. The icing on the cake was that most of the police force is gone for the day at the picnic. This timing is almost too good to be true. The idea that the killing had to occur at home, and not at Swansea, because the bodies would be found more quickly makes a lot of sense to me. Lizzie could not take the chance on it being ruled that Andrew died first. Didn’t they have farm hands and such that stayed there at the property? It was easy enough to get Bridget out of the house and out of the way, but how many worked at the farm? It could be implied that Bridget had misinterpreted or did not clearly remember certain things that happened on the murder day, but what if there were more of the help under foot?

Kat @ Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:38 am wrote:More reason to believe that the timing of the deaths was all-important.

Didn't William Masterson argue that based on modern forensic science, it couldn't be known for sure who died first? And, as proper post mortem body temperatures weren't taken, even by forensic standards of the day it looks to me like they were just guessing who died first. If the muderer was trying to make it obvious Abby died first, s/he did a damn lousy job.

Once the papers started getting the proper information it became common knowledge by everyone everywhere- all the experts and all the forensic witnesses- that there was this minimum of an hour between the deaths. There is one place I believe, where this is questioned officially, and it's implied in a letter in The Knowlton Papers.
It says that one of the doctors was now *on board* - convinced at last. So I think there was only one hold-out of the common opinion.

"HK198
Letter, typewritten.

COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS,
OFFICE OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY
FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT.

New Bedford, Mass., May 27, 1893.
Hon. A E. Pillsbury:
Attorney General:
My Dear Sir:-

The defense have asked for two experts, one on
each branch, presumably the chemical and the anatomical. They are to designate their names as soon as they have selected them, probably early next week. This makes it of great importance for us to decide whether we want additional experts, and if so whom. Both Dr. Draper and Wood will take it kindly to be fortified, especially in view of the above fact.

Moody and I will probably be very much occupied from now until the beginning of the trial. Will it be too much to ask you to think over the matter, so that when we call upon you sometime next week you can give us your views both upon the employments of experts, and if so whom to employ.

Dr. Draper is coming round on our side in great shape. All doubts he may have has as to the time of death are now fully dispersed.
Yours Truly,
H. M. Knowlton
per E."

Golaszewski @ Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:09 pm wrote:

Kat @ Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:38 am wrote:More reason to believe that the timing of the deaths was all-important.

Didn't William Masterson argue that based on modern forensic science, it couldn't be known for sure who died first? And, as proper post mortem body temperatures weren't taken, even by forensic standards of the day it looks to me like they were just guessing who died first. If the muderer was trying to make it obvious Abby died first, s/he did a damn lousy job.

I haven't read Masterton yet. I've heard some of the high points of his theories, though, and I agree with him that Abby's stomach contents don't mean a thing; I bet she kept a stash of cookies for those stressful moments.

But the blood evidence from the preliminary hearing seems unmistakable to me:

All blood evidence is available here: http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... idence.htm

Dr. Dolan Testifies

Pg. 103-105
Under her head, and pretty well down on her breast, she was lying in a pool of clotted blood, quite dark, as if it had been there sometime. It was not in the fluid condition that Mr. Borden’s was.

If his blood was flowing freely while hers was clotted and dark, she died before he did. Unless Andrew was a hemophiliac, and I think that fact would have come out at some point.

I'd love to know how Masterton deals with the blood evidence.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

Lynn

Since Abby's blood was so dark and clotted, could it be possible that she was killed around 8:45 or whatever time it was just before Morse left? It was mentioned that Andrew had said his family was having difficulties. Whatever the problems were, maybe Morse was trying to help Lizzie, because it was said they were close. Maybe she knew he was going to take care of things but didn't exactly participate herself. He could have easily gone back into the room where he was staying and not have caused any suspicion with Abby about being there. He could have done the deed and left for his relative's house for his alibi. He could have come back and told Lizzie to make herself scarce in the barn. He could have then done Andrew in and gone to the barn to clean up. Lizzie was then supposed to go in and find her father dead. If he told her to make up her alibi as to where she was, maybe, in her naivette, she was just very clumsy in doing something like that, and that's why she was so contradictory in her testimony. If it seems weird that Morse was sitting in the back yard eating pears, maybe it is because he came out of the barn and waited there to see what was happening, making sure it was the right time to go in as if he was just returning from his visit.
Another thing I wondered about was what kind of things people had in their kitchens at that time. Was a meat cleaver a common thing? If that was used instead of a hatchet, it could have easily been cleaned off and put back into a drawer. The reason I think so is because I read some of the cuts were very clean. It was said that a piece of bone in the hair that came off Abby's head was cut extremely smoothly from a very sharp instrument.

Angel,

Good Theory.I think that could be a posibility I always did thing John just eating pears around.was wierd

But if Uncle John did the killing before he left to go visit his relatives, wouldn't Andrew have also been home at that time? Bridget would also have been inside the house. I'm thinking of the noise factor.

I've always thought she was kneeling by the bed and very little noise would have been made. Besides, Andrew could have been unlocking the barn, picking those infernal pears (those must have been the best darn pears on earth the way everyone seemed to be salivating over them), shaving, etc. Bridget was busy at her duties elsewhere. Lizzie could have even been in the bedroom with Morse and Abby to distract Abby.

If Lizzie and Bridget were lying, or covering-up, it's possible Morse killed Abby. Andrew let Morse out but he could have hung around and come in after Andrew left. Morse didn't show up at the Emery's until 9:20 I think. Which is 35 minutes! He says he went to the PO first but no one saw him, right? Officials know of his return, which is pretty well vouched for- but not his leaving.
His return involved his sighting and others of several priests on the street car, which he recounted, but also the testimony of Mrs. Emery and his niece.
Bottom line, he could have killed Abby but not Andrew.
Also, the thing that killed Abby had gilt on it- it was new. They don't gild kitchen implements, but they do gild ornamental objects.

So- it seems that if Morse killed Abby we might be back to that complex situation:
2 murderers and 2 weapons.
Otherwise, it's an interesting theory!
See if we can make it work?

I am a little confused. If the thing that killed Abby had gilt on it but not Andrew, don't we have the problem of 2 murder weapons anyway? I always thought gilt was "gold leaf", a term used in Art. A coating of gold or resembling gold used in paintings and fine Arts. You can buy gold leaf in Art supply stores to use on your artwork. I have used it before in projects, and it is very fragile, so if the blade of a weapon was coated in it, after several good whacks into bone or other hard surface, it is going to come off.

Well, if you have 2 murderers you don't necessarily use the same weapon, yes.
Also, the gilding on the hatchet is a tougher substance, I believe. It's coated on there to protect the blade after it is made, through storage and shipping and while it's on the shelf. I think a person hones a hatchet almost immediately before first use. They would put the finishing touch on the blade edge to prepare it for whatever its use is to be.
If so, a new hatchet was used on Abby and then it's possible she got the last bit of gilt in her wound so that by the time it came for Andrew, there was no gilt left.
This has always been a bit of a stumbling block I think- that Andrew had no gilt. (I should have posted that in the pun section!).

Could it be that the handle broke on the first weapon used, as it is thought to have broken off by some during the murder of Andrew? The killer would then have to use a new weapon. If so this could explain the use of two weapons,thus no gilt in Andrew's wounds, but still be only one killer.

Well, a new hatchet probably wouldn't break on Abby- do you think?
Andrew's wounds seem like a sharper instument was used than even Abby's- - there was a hatchet that they considered *new* which was the claw-hammer hatchet. I don't know why they gave up on that as the weapon- it was dominate choice in the Preliminary Hearing.