Arsenic

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:51 pm

Does anyone know if the Borden's stomach contained arsenic.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:54 pm

They did not.

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:42 pm

Also, I believe they had one apiece like the rest of us. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:41 pm

The autopsy reports for both victims, Liz, may found at http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibrary.htm
under "Evidence." The stomach contents in both instances are detailed there I believe, and also if memory serves, in Volume II of the trial transcript...testimony of Dr. Wood among others.

The trial transcript (a dandy reproduction by our own Harry Widdows) may be freely downloaded at http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... script.htm

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:59 pm

Yes but he did not test them for poison.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:42 pm

The autopsy doesn't have stomach content info because those organs were tied off and shipped to Prof. Dr. Wood but it does show they were removed:
"Stomach and portion of liver had been removed."--for Andrew. Maybe part of the liver was used to determine whether there had been long-time poisoning.
Anyway, Wood checked for prussic acid first, he says, because it is volatile. I recently learned that "volatile" means easily passed off into the air. I thought it meant unstable.

Trial
Wood
994
...Therefore those were both tested for prussic acid, with a negative result. Afterwards they were analyzed in the regular way for the irritant poisons, with also a negative result.

Q. In other words you found no evidence ---
A. I found no evidence of poison of any kind.....

Q. Of any kind whatever?
A. In either case.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:22 am

I recently learned that "volatile" means easily passed off into the air. I thought it meant unstable.

Strangely enough, it can mean both of those things. I checked a bit ago and of something nigh five definitions - well here we are:

Pronunciation: 'vä-l&-t&l, esp British -"tIl
Function: adjective
Etymology: French, from Latin volatilis, from volare to fly
1 : readily vaporizable at a relatively low temperature2 : flying or having the power to fly
3 a : LIGHTHEARTED, LIVELY b : easily aroused <volatile suspicions> c : tending to erupt into violence : EXPLOSIVE
4 a : unable to hold the attention fixed because of an inherent lightness or fickleness of disposition b : characterized by or subject to rapid or unexpected change
5 : difficult to capture or hold permanently : EVANESCENT, TRANSITORY
- vol·a·tile·ness noun
- vol·a·til·i·ty /"vä-l&-'ti-l&-tE/ noun

Both meanings then are stated or implied, per the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary.

john · Post by **john** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:57 pm

But they were sick.
They show symptoms of arsenic poisioning, but evidently arsenic was checked out and not found.
They also show symptoms of fecal poisioning, but fecal is hard to administer because of the foul smell. Fecal takes a few days to hit, so Uncle John wouldn't have felt it right away, unless it interferred with his mind, causing him to risk a lynch mob to go to the post office. Also Bridget maybe didn't eat the junk mutton which they had until she had too from hungry, and got sick later than the rest.
If grown in a laboratory, fecal has no odor.
Dr. Bowen?
Of course, and being realistic, the signs were also the same as that of influenza.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:07 pm

It is the e. coli bacteria which causes the odor of fecal matter. So, when e coli is grown in the lab, it will have an odor. The odor would not really be a factor in preventing transmission, as something as simple as not washing your hands after using the bathroom can lead to transmission of the e.coli bacteria.

Tracy...

john · Post by **john** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:27 pm

Well you're just wrong Theebomonique. Because lab E. Coli or fecal in the washroom sense, has no odor, taste or color. It is specifically just a little transparent germ. Looks harmless, but deadly within five days. The reason I used the term fecal was because of the easierness of getting it. Fecal is much more germs than simply E. Coli, any one of wiich will eventually do you in.
Fortunately fecal is pro-resistant, or we'd all be dead long ago.

john · Post by **john** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:27 pm

Well you're just wrong Theebomonique. Because lab E. Coli or fecal in the washroom sense, has no odor, taste or color. It is specifically just a little transparent germ. Looks harmless, but deadly within five days. The reason I used the term fecal was because of the easierness of getting it. Fecal is much more germs than simply E. Coli, any one of wiich will eventually do you in.
Fortunately fecal is pro-resistant, or we'd all be dead long ago.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:49 pm

John, according to my experience working in the hospital lab and my microbiology classes in college, e.coli DOES have an odor. As a result of the metabolism of what the e. coli 'ingests', an odor is rendered. I don't know what expert experience you will claim to have in this matter, but I am sure you will claim something...you usually do.

Here is a website we use at school occasionally...in helping to answer the questions of our young students.
http://yucky.kids.discovery.com/flash/b ... index.html

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:00 pm

At the time and still now maybe today, there were and probably are undetectable vegetable poisons.
It needn't be arsenic if anyone needs to find poison in the case.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:04 pm

OMD....She is a SCIENCE TEACHER...

john · Post by **john** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:27 pm

I claim nothing Theebomonique other than my 15 year research in Africa and subsequent 2 year viral conference at the U.N. and my subsequent Nobel Prize in E. Coli research and my book "Can E. Coli be Funny?" published by Mad Magazine.

john · Post by **john** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:32 pm

Seriously, I think you're right, and poision didn't kill the Borden's - it's probably a coincidence or a skirt.

john · Post by **john** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:35 pm

But, upon further reading, Theebomonique, when have I ever claimed any expertice at anything? Show me!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:42 pm

John, you are all about outlandish and ridiculous claims. On occasion you do utter something within the realm of reality. I suppose I should just expect you to be you, and not depend on what you say to be true until someone else backs it up.

Tracy...

john · Post by **john** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:45 pm

We cool Tracy - likes you!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:56 pm

I rest my case.

Tracy...

john · Post by **john** » Tue May 03, 2005 12:07 am

Lets just say something really stupid, Tracy, that I'm sure, though I don't absolutely know, must have been gone through a hundred times before.
Bridget is sleeping.
Lizzie kills Andrew.
Why doesn't Lizzie, if she can be so pristene in composure and obfuscation, not just go downtown?
It's still only 11:00 - she could be shoplifting at the drug store.
Commonly a murderer lets someone else discover the crime, as I don't have to tell you, you are a student of crimes.
But now you can tell me why.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue May 03, 2005 12:21 am

I am only a student of this crime. There are several on this forum who are well studied in this and many other crimes. I am only beginning.

So far I am of the mindset that Lizze did NOT actually commit the crimes, but must have had some knowledge of the who, what, when where, why, and how part.

If you are saying that because Lizzie 'discovered' Andrew's murder because she was not the one who committed it...oh God..please tell me I am not about to say this...I agree.

Tracy...

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Tue May 03, 2005 1:23 am

There are times Tracy, when even the most learned of experts in any field is made to feel that he or she is but a mere student. It makes me think of Orwell actually - that is to say we are all "experts," but some of us are more expert than others.

There's no crime at all in being a "green" student...that's where the real expert is sprouted from - and the finest experts recognize the indispensible value of the student's outlook. Nobody has all the answers. If that were so, none of us would be here.

murder1 · Post by **murder1** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:46 pm

Hi,

According to the various doctors who conducted the autopsies, no arsenic, but if I'm mistaken, someone please correct me.

Thanks.

Karen

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:50 pm

murder1 @ Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:46 pm wrote:Hi,

According to the various doctors who conducted the autopsies, no arsenic

That is correct.

Welcome, Karen.

We're not all raving loons. "John" who you read above, has been banned from this forum. Once in a while we seem to spiral downward out of control, but generally we're a relatively welcoming and harmless bunch.