And Old-Time Friends

[Kat]

Hello Everyone!
Absent friends were always in mind as we traveled about.
I am just now on-line since last Monday night. I've never gone this long without posting in over 4 years! So if you were waiting, so was I!

We had arranged with Eugene and Doug & Marilou and Sherry/Steve/Stevie to first meet Wednesday at the Historical Society for the tour. It was good timing because Eugene just got into Providence in time to meet up. A tour boat was due in at 2 p.m. for a tour, which I was warned about ahead of time, so we avoided that crush. As we toured, another member would join us and so we really had a "reunion" in the mansion as we walked among the gorgeous furnishings. We were all together by the time we hit the Borden exhibit, which I now understand to be located in the "Library" of the mansion. There we were, all together! What a fine group of people! We were only missing Bob G and Kash as long-timers, who we met up with later.
Nancy gave the tour, and she was very professional, seeing as we were a bit of a handful- all excited to be there. But we behaved well, and were given reign of the archive room for a bit to solidate our greetings and plan our next move.

We decided to visit the B&B tour then and re-gathered at #92 Second Street. Ben was our guide and he really was marvelous! (And cute). He said he had been studying and we were impressed at how quickly he had adapted to the case history.

Of course, members broke off at certain points and examined more thoroughly the surroundings. Everyone had visited the house before except for Eugene, so I stayed behind the group with him so we could linger in certain areas and he could get photos with no people in them. I've still been house-trained by Bill Pavao, and so I give my own mini-tour as well, because I can't help it. Bill's expertise in this house is utterly amazing and I learned from him.

A member posted here once the picture of the little trap-door in the wall of Andrew's closet- and I thank you- because we were able to take care to see that this time. That was an artifact from when the house had originally been 2 tenements, where Andrew & Abby's bedroom had once been a kitchen.
Another member had posted here about Andrew's closet door- but my only point about that door is that it does close automatically, as I denonstarted to our group.

After the tour our group stayed in the cellar a while and Lee-ann wanted to show us the booty she had discovered while digging around the privy/barn area. That was an extra bonus and very charming of her to wish to show us these items personally. Very interesting stuff. One bit looked like small leather gloves which were ragged and disintergrating.

We were there a long time- hours actually. Once there it was very hard to leave!
Stefani was due to meet with Michael Martins and Dennis Binett and her electronic guy an hour before her speach, so we had just time to get to our hotel, get cleaned up, and eat some crackers and get to the venue, the First Congregational Church meeting hall. Eugene went with us to save us time, and we could leave his car parked without backtracking. He is such a nice southern gentleman, soft-spoken and well-mannered. He doesn't interrupt. [Like I do ] I can't speak for him, but I think he was going into overload status by the time the day and evening had ended. It happens like that. You want to go be alone and think- there is so much to process!

The attendees names from our membership were already posted, but I will include them here: Harry, me, Eugene, Lee-ann from the B&B, Doug and Marilou, Mark A. and his wife and daughter, Sherry and Steve and Stevie, Kash, and Cynthia (our new member "nbcatlover"). Len Rebello came, and Shelly from the B&B and Bill Pavao. Michael and Dennis. And later I was told that I had been sitting next to Sally McGinn! I don't know her but I missed meeting her- but she seemed to be having a good time!

Everyone had a good time! The chattering racket after Q&A were over and everyone was standing was absolutely exciting!
Stef was a genius, if I do say so myself! Her presentation was remarkable and full of wit, wisdom, analysis and imbued with her unique personality.

Here is a pic of her afterwards with our friends we have made in Fall River. More stories later, I guess, as others report back and after storms are over in my neck of the woods.

[Edisto]

Wow! Thanks for the play-by-play, Kat! I wish more than ever that I had been able to attend. (Would I have qualified as an old-timer?) Alas, it's probably a good thing I didn't plan to be there, because two of my oldest friends in the Washington area died within days of each other, and August 3d was bracketed by one funeral and one memorial service. I would probably have had to bow out even if I had planned to join you. Nevertheless, I was thinking of y'all and wishing I could have been with you. Some other time (I hope). Everybody says Stef was a smash hit.

[Harry]

Everyone had a good time! The chattering racket after Q&A were over and everyone was standing was absolutely exciting!
Stef was a genius, if I do say so myself! Her presentation was remarkable and full of wit, wisdom, analysis and imbued with her unique personality.

Stef sure is. Sometimes we take her for granted but she is a marvel to watch in action.

She simply exudes enthusiasm and clarity which comes from her knowledge of the facts and her desire to present them in an interesting manner. Well, she more than succeeded in her lecture.

It was VERY well attended, much larger than her first (which wasn't small either) and there wasn't a seat to be had if you came late.

Kudos to our own Stefani!!!

[Nancie]

Thanks Kat for the diary of your trip to FR, great writing to sum up the trip, sounds like it was wonderful and Stef had a very sucessful lecture!
Welcome home.

[Tina-Kate]

Welcome back, Kat!

[Kat]

Thanks you guys! It's good to be back!

We asked Michael about the scarf which was in the newest video "Lizzie Borden Had An Axe," and he said they did own that, it was not on display, had cuts in it, and hairpins, was found near Abby's body and still had blood on it (though it wasn't visible in the video), and was too delicate to handle much.

I left out that we took Eugene to French Street and I made him go up the Swift's driveway so he could take pictures near the rear of Maplecroft, and on that side. I said "follow me and I'll get you arrested" and he did!
I think he got some interesting views we have't seen before. I think Harry got a couple as well.
Eugene should have some great pictures.
Harry has 79 or some such, Stef has over 100 and my dinkey camera actually strived for and achieved 14, when it usually only takes 11.

After the talk, Kash and Harry and Stef and I went posing in Oak Grove Cementery after dark at the Borden monument. Stef has some cool pics of that. Kash is just great! We all loved her!

Doug and Marilou won the raffle and it was fitting because they drove the farthest. Kash drove an hour but they drove 3 hours! They won a basket full of videos, books and a mug- I'm not sure what else, at the end of the meeting. As they were leaving, I was saying goodbye at their car, and he told me he was so happy to find people "like him" who were interested in Lizzie. He said he had been interested since he was 10, but never knew anyone else to talk to about it! Marilou is not a Forum member but she is in spirit! She puts up with Doug's fascination and has also learned a lot about the case in her own right. She brought us all some wonderful sugar cookies, which was great as no one had eaten! She is also one who sits and takes up her knitting while she waits. I like that!

Our member Ben said he was nervous giving a bunch of us the B&B tour. I can't imagine being the one to give us the tour! He did extremely well. Thanks Ben!

We arrived in Providence (the only way to go!) Tuesday morning, grabbed Harry and went to Providence, parked and walked around. We saw the places Emma had lived! I talked to the construction guys sitting outside The Minden and they said the only way I'd get inside was with a hard hat and the Supervisor's permission. I peeked in the front door but it was all torn up inside the lobby area and no hope of knowing what it looked like when Emma stayed there.

We saw the Hope Street house owned by Preston Gardner, Emma' & Lizzie's cousin, and that is another place Emma stayed. We had seen it at night last October. It's a nice house on Hope Street. We went downtown to find Tilden-Thurber, but it was gone! In October we had pressed our faces to the windows to look in but this trip the place was closed, empty and the sign was down! The only way to tell it used to be Tilden-Thurber is it's location and that bench and iron railing!

After that we went to the B&B to drop in and ended up meeting the guests and having a long, friendly conversation with a couple from LA and a couple from Australia who were now living on the west coast of the US, the Northwest. One couple hoped for psychic phenomenon- Not Me!

Friday morning we went to breakfast with Michael and Dennis until noon and then went to lunch with Len and Bill and Bob G. We were all either hot or freezing! Fall River air conditioning is freezing! Anyway, it was an incredible experience to sit with Stef, me Harry, Len, Bill & Bob G. and talk about the case! Wow! We had a very interesting discussion for quite a while. That really was a great thing- I think we all are still chewing over that conversation! Can you imagine?!
And Bob G. is a riot! He has no "off" button. He was BridgetAliceEmmaUncleJohnLizzieAndrewAbbyBowen doing lines from The Legend movie, and other movies as well, and I think his own original material, but it goes by so fast you have to be on your toes. He also has an Andrew face he makes which maybe will get posted.
We went over to Len's and he had us in to see his house and his collection. I held Lizzie's cup; we saw his newspaper archive; Fall River line chairs and a painting of the ship that was also on a bookcover. There were interesting objects d'art, etc.
Bob G. made an "Andrew" pose on the rolled-arm sofa, which Jay says he does everywhere in the world and they now have quite a collection of Bob assuming that posture on sofas everywhere! Maybe we will see some of those sometime!

Thursday, the morning of the murders we left town to drive to Newmarket, New Hampshire! On the way, we were saying, probably like anyone, "Now Abby is being killed." "Now Andrew is arriving home." "Now Andrew is being killed." It wasn't until the drive back, after viewing the house where Emma died, that I realized we were presently in Daylight Savings Time and an hour off all day on everything momentous which happened on the day!
I'll bet everyone was!

And yes, Edisto, you qualify for Old-Time Friend!


Here are Stef and Bob G.

[Susan]

Welcome back, gang! Sounds like you all had a wonderful and exciting time! Can't wait to see the rest of the trip pics.

[Kashesan]

Hey Bob G, nice photo of you and Stefani. JUst have to ask-is that a "Black Cat" T shirt from Salem you're wearing in it? (I have one too)

Kash

[Bob Gutowski]

Actually, that black cat tee was from Provincetown, as an answer to the Martha's Vineyard "Black Dog." I bought two!

I can't begin to tell you all how amazing it was to sit on the porch at chez Rebello with Len, Bill, Harry, and the Koorey sisters, discussing the case, which we continued to do all through lunch at a nearby restaurant. As I said to Kat, "This is heaven!"

I love, love, LOVE these people! Thanks to all, and especially Len, who even showed us his lair and files!

[Kashesan]

Why does August 4th come only once a year?

[Kat]

We already miss you guys! But it is good to be home lying in the sun.
Excuse me that I have not had time yet to read past posts, as storms are keeping me off-line , as well as technical glitches.
I will get to those going back a week. Also excuse me not yet answering my mail to those who wrote me.

Len was very gracious- he always is, too- and gives of his time and mind so generously.

Kash got to meet a lot of members and I think she met Lee-ann and had a talk about phenomenom in the House. I think she also met Michael and Dennis? I can hardly remember who she was introduced to, as it was standing room only at the lecture. Luckily we two grabbed our seats a bit early and I couldn't even save a seat for Harry it was so crowded! Last time, in October, it was the last game of the World Series, so we had a bit less audience.

Did I mention Mark A. was there? I may have left him out! He brought his wife and daughter and I feel like Hannah is our mascot, as she is home-grown Fall River and is in many photos Mark sends us- she is so cute, clutching her favorite stuffed doll. We have seen her in photos of snowmen last winter and this year at the Leary Press demolition! Hi Hannah! Mark's wife was lovely to speak to, sweet and charming.
Of course, I always wish I had spent more time with Mark after we've parted.

Here is Kash at the speech.
She just had a birthday July 22nd! Only 3 days off Lizzie! Happy belated B. Day again!

[Bob Gutowski]

I see she's taking that ancient advice, "Wear Frida Kahlo on thy arm, and thee shall never come to harm."

[Edisto]

Ah, Bob, I like that photo of you and Stef so well that I was thinking of having it tattooed on my arm. Of course, given my advanced age, both of you would look quite a bit more wrinkled in my version. My arms are a mite scrawny too, so maybe I'll have to find a little broader part of my anatomy. I have several choices!

[Bob Gutowski]

How sweet, Annette - and it reminds me of what the druggy guy outside the henna parlor in P-Town said when I showed him my arm, at his request, when I told him I was thinking about a temp bat tattoo. "Man, you need to go back to the gym!"

I looked at him, puffing away, and said "And you need to stop smoking, but that's neither here nor there...'

[Kat]

This is the night of the speaking engagement. I don't know whose idea it was

Oak Grove, Wednesday night about 9:30, August 3rd, 2005.

[theebmonique]

I am SO enjoying the 'forum' tour of Lizzieland ! Having been there, I can relate so well with all you are describing. I am really loving this ! The photos are really good icing on an already to die for cake ! YUMMMMMY ! MORE PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Tracy...

[Kat]

We are so sorry to have missed you Tracy- and our Audrey!

Here is Bob G.'s impersonation of Andrew.

[Susan]

Thats a great likeness! I am so wrapped up in everyone's excitement, it almost feels as if I was there with you all. It sounds like the most amazing time!

[Tina-Kate]

Rolling on the floor laughing. That's the best Andrew impression ever!

[Kat]

Here is an interesting view of the cellar of the Borden house from outside. The new outer bulkhead door is in place.
This looks directly down and at that place in the chimney where that big bowl sits to heat (slightly left straight ahead)- that's the bowl which "glowed" from the Luminol in the recent video.
Technically that is still the laundry cellar, tho the bulkhead door divides this room from the root cellar to the right. That part to the right is where Andrew stored the vinegar barrels.
I've wondered if the word "vinegar" was a euphemism for something else?

[Kat]

Here is a quaint picture Stef took of the sitting room with the window light.
Do other tour members have house pictures to post?
We have very few of the inside this time.

please click on pic

[Bob Gutowski]

Now all the world knows that, like Andrew, I have virtually no upper lip! Gosh, I look grim - I wonder how much I charge to haunt a house?

[Kashesan]

Wow Great shot Bob G! With some whiskers, you'd make a great Andrew (can I get a picture of you on the sofa??)
Kash

[Kashesan]

Bob G re Frida tattoo: (she speaks to me sometimes. In Spanish. Mostly cuss words...)

Kath

[Kat]

It was an outstanding impersonation and of course you do not look like that all the time.
I was thinking of putting Andrew's whiskers on you, but I just knew that you were doing a great Andrew just through the force of your personality. That's a good actor! I was thinking you should be in the movie!
(He really is in color, folks!)

[Bob Gutowski]

There actually IS a pic of me on Len's sofa, and I hereby give Stef and Kat permission to post it. It was after lunch, and we were being silly - on the other hand, I have pix of me on various couches all over the world!

[Kat]

Bob's Famous Pose Around the World- Now Touring Fall River.

pleaseclickonpic

[Bob Gutowski]

You see, I subscribe to the idea that one really can enjoy one's childhood at any age!

[Kat]

Harry sent me several views of Stefani's lecture.
This one has her standing, speaking, and shows the screen.
She had clips and commentary, as well, included in her presentation.

In the 2nd row you see the backs of Len, Bill & Shelly (in aqua).
I am the one with the white hair- oops, there are several with white hair- I have a burnt orange shawl on.
In front of me, I found out during the show, was the lady historian who is in a lot of videos- Rushton? Ruskin? Next to me on the right is Kash, on my left is supposedly Sally McGinn (I never met her).
In the foreground, with the gray sude jacket is Haulover/Eugene.
The empty chair is Harry!

A Great Time Was Had By All!
Thanks Stefani!

please click on pic

[Haulover]

as we were leaving.....for who hasn't seen the new paint job.

[Haulover]

dining room. that closet door you see is the doorknob i took.

[Susan]

as we were leaving.....for who hasn't seen the new paint job.

Thanks for the pic, Eugene! Is Bridget still out front doing the windows? Wow, the color is a lot greener than I thought drab should be. It does look nice though.

[Kat]

That is Lee-ann. She wears the dress very well- it suits her. She wore it to the presentation. Usually someone comes dressed up like that in period.
I think she is Lizzie.
Those are good shots, Eugene.
Thanks for posting them!

[Kat]

BTW:
See the "dress" in the hall? I was told later that the skirt is authentic and was Lizzie's thru the Terry family. But not the blouse.

[Kashesan]

Great pictures-gosh, it was so much fun.

[Bob Gutowski]

It was quite something to see only part of the house painted on Sunday, July 31st, and then to see it completed on Saturday, August 6th, when Mick and Jay and I stopped by and "did" South Main Street. I'm not as unhappy with the color as some, I think, after seeing it finished.

[Susan]

That is Lee-ann. She wears the dress very well- it suits her. She wore it to the presentation. Usually someone comes dressed up like that in period.
I think she is Lizzie.

Thanks, Kat, I totally didn't recognize Lee-Ann in her Victorian garb. I love that she does that, shes so cool! And thanks for the info on the dress in the front hall, good info to have.

[Kat]

We went to Newmarket, New Hampshire, which was a very pretty place. I have some B/W postcards that I bought there which are of ancient days and it wasn't as pretty.

We stopped at The Stone House which is the Historical Society. We walked in and there were folding chairs everywhere. I asked if there was a meeting? The answer I got was there could be now, since we showed up!

It was a charming place, very small, basically one room. The guy in charge was florid-faced and boistrous. There was a display of things on the counter and a sign asking "What the heck is this?" It was some weird implement or tool- and no one knows its use!

A woman came out of a hallway and stopped in front of Stefani and while Stefani was thinking this woman looked familiar, the woman said to Stef "You look familiar!" That was odd. Stef called me over after this happened and had me take a peek at the woman and my first instinct was she looked very familiar!
We could find nothing in common and so we just all sort of left it as an odd coincidence.
Later, we found her name on a book, The Tide Turns On The Lamprey- she was the author Sylvia Fitts Getchell, historian.
But we still don't know where we "know" her from! Her picture is not on her books.

We were in a Library in another city in New Hampshire and found an original letter/document left behind in the xerox machine. I turned it in without looking at it- but I sort of glanced at the first line as I passed it over the desk.
It said So and So was barred now from the Dunkin Donuts. The lady there looked at it casually and her jaw dropped! The other lady there looked at it, because apparently she found it first, and talked the first lady into letting her see it. Her jaw dropped open! They started whispering about not ever telling what they had read on there and to whom it was written, and I walked away chuckling at the thought it might make the paper the next day. This was one small town!

[Bob Gutowski]

Yes, and apparently by H. P. Lovecraft out of Shirley Jackson with a pinch of Grace Metalious!

[Kat]

I forgot to point out that in Eugene's picture of the front of the B&B, with the door open, you can see that the front door obstructs the view of the staircase. That was a question in testimony.

Also, during the tour of the Borden artifacts at the Historical Society, we saw the bedspread and pillow sham. We were told by our guide Nancy that that pillow sham was found on the floor with Abby's body.
Did she say it was clutched in Abby's hand?
Anyway, with those blood specks, it didn't seem likely, but I don't know how they would know? Does anyone know how the guide would know that *fact*?

[Haulover]

what she actually said, if i remember correctly, is that abby was struck before she even had time to put on the pillow shams. i did not hear a detail as to where they fell. if it's true, my first thought was they might have fallen somewhere under her middle or lower body. my next thought was a question -- is that what is poking out from under abby in the photograph?

i'd like to know the origin of the story as well.

[Susan]

That would certainly add a new twist to the murders if Abby didn't have time to finish putting on the pillow slips! Maybe the tour guide confused it with the handkerchief that was found near Abby? I guess this would be a good time to call Michael Martins.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had untouched crime scene photos of the Bordens? In Abby's pic we know that the bed has been moved and a camp chair totally removed from the scene. Who knows what else they may have removed from her immediate vicinity?

[Stefani]

All we have, alas, are photos taken 4-6 hours after the crimes, with the scenes changed by the various people who came in and examined the victims.

The bed was made when Abby was found, but tossed for evidence. The bed was moved and then moved back. Abby was rolled and her arms had to be put back into their "original" positions for the photos, however, I believe that the position they were put back into was a second position, after a moving by a doctor, and not their original original position.

Bowen testified that the position of Andrew was not as he saw him, that he was in the photo lower down on the sofa than when he found him, that he had sagged into the image we have come to memorize as evidence.

So it is a messed up case. No wonder Lizzie was acquitted!

[Kat]

The specks of blood on the pillow sham were very similar to those on the bedspread, which makes me think that sham was probably in the same place- or similar- as the spread when the blood was flung on there.
I think if it was found on the floor, it would be saturated.
How would they know where it was found?
Oral anecdote?
Some info in the Hilliard papers?
No photos allowed.
I wish I had taken time to draw what I saw.

Doug, Sherry, Marilou? Anbody else remember what we were told?

[Haulover]

that's a good point about the blood. yes, it's the same.

the scarf is more mysterious -- as it appeared to have cuts, but it does not appear blood-stained. maybe it was flung to the bed with the hair piece?

the scarf i mean is shown in the "lizzie borden had an axe" documentary -- m martins confirmed its existence and that it is not on display. but it's not documented in the records--at least not clearly. it's not like the bloody rag referred to as i understood it. i guess it goes to show we haven't necessarily been playing with a full deck, so to speak.

[Susan]

The specks of blood on the pillow sham were very similar to those on the bedspread, which makes me think that sham was probably in the same place- or similar- as the spread when the blood was flung on there.

But isn't the bloody pillow sham they have displayed at the FRHS from the pillow at the head of the bed closest to Abby's body? According to Lizzie wasn't Abby allegedly putting new slips on the pillows at the foot of the bed? I agree, if one of them was found on the floor it would at least be heavily spattered if not downright soaked.


Yes, Eugene, that handkerchief is becoming a mystery to me also. Its mentioned that one was found by Abby, dark in color and soaked with blood. That one displayed on the "Lizzie Borden Had An Axe" show with the cuts looked relatively clean, what gives? Was it perhaps washed over time?

[Haulover]

a modern view.

[Kat]

MM said there is still blood on that dark scarf and no it's not ever been washed.
There are 2 people who said Abby was not wearing a head covering the last time they saw her so that scarf/kerchief is very confusing to me.

Yes, that sham displayed at the FRHS does appear to match the spread to the point that it could be from the head of the bed.
Confusing, yes!

[Kat]

Eugene- at my end your photos are gigantic!
Do you want them made smaller so they can fit the screen?
Here is one:

[doug65oh]

"...at my end your photos are gigantic!"

so...what's wrong with gigantic? these aging eyes need all the help they can get!! "The better to see you with..." (sorta)