Outhouse?

Airmid · Post by **Airmid** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:55 am

Kat, and I think others too, mentioned a "privy" or "outhouse" in or near the barn. I wonder what that exactly was. All I know from what I read is that there was a "vault" outside, behind to the barn, and I always assumed that this was some kind of waste pit, that was used to get rid of the contents of the pails, rotten pears and kitchen waste.

Walter Stevens, reporter, is questioned about the vaullt in the Trial, p. 1391/1392:
Q Did you also look in the vault behind the barn?
A Looked at it.
Q Before you came to the barn?
A Yes.
Q You had to take off a piece of board to do it?
A I am under the impression the boards had been moved.

So there seemed to have been a vault or pit, closed off with some wooden boards. Is this what you folks meant with "privy"? Or were you referring to another structure? Please enlighten me!

Airmid.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:17 am

There was an outhouse, or privy, on the premises and it was associated with the barn. I'm uncertain whether it was under the same roof as the barn (within the barn) or adjacent to the barn. Architectural sketches don't seem to show it as separate from the barn, so it was probably within the barn. It would have been used in the same way as any outhouse.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:05 pm

Barn Pics

--I had thought the barn Privy might have been in that indented place in this second barn picture. But in the first barn picture, I don't see that indented place. By *indented* I mean a doorless entryway.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:16 pm

The author Len Rebello has given Harry & myself the permission to use his pictures with credit. Here is his depiction of the Privy in the barn, #25.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:28 pm

Could the Privy 'door' have possibly been boarded up sometime after the trial, and maybe we just can't see that in the angle of the second picture ?

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:15 pm

I don't know Tracy. Maybe someone with a good eye for detail can figure out the pictures?
Also, maybe the PIX picture is not the full barn- but it sure looks like the end of the barn.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:50 pm

The PIX photo shows clapboard siding over the indentation at the rear of the barn where we expect the original privy door would have been. It also shows the side door to the barn has been converted to a window. The stairs in the PIX photo run right through where we expect the privy to have been. Maybe the barn was renovated extensively by 1938. If the privy was in the southeast corner of the barn as we expect, the stairs would have to be offset (perhaps centered, or pitched the opposite way) to accommodate it. Also missing is a trap door or an opening without a door to allow hay to be dropped from the loft to the first floor. It isn't likely that hay would be carried down a stairway.

If the barn had been converted to a garage at some point, a centered stairway might have been in the way.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:18 am

BTW: Rebello, pg. 43 says the barn was taken down in 1929.

Airmid · Post by **Airmid** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:41 am

Thanks folks! And wonderful pictures, Kat!
I agree, the southeast corner does seem to be the most likely candidate for a privy. There's a structure like a cubicle in the picture on that spot. And look at the two pipes running up to the second floor of the barn in the southeast corner. Was the loft of the barn converted into a chauffeur's dwelling at some point?

Thanks again!
Airmid.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:09 am

You're welcome!

Good observations!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:09 am

IMO, the privy was in the barn. Whether it occupied the entire length of the east wall would be a guess. There is a lot of contradictory testimony about it being "behind the barn" indicating a separate building. What I think the problem may be is that IMO the only way into the privy was through the privy door, ie: no door leading from inside the barn into the privy. ie: you had to leave the barn to get into the privy. But it's just my opinion.

Boston Globe, August 6:

"There is an old vault in the rear yard, covered over with loose boards. These the officers removed and carefully disturbed and examined the mass of old papers and accumulated rubbish it contained. Nothing was found, nor any indication that an axe had been concealed there after the murder. The men went into the barn and looked about under the boxes and in the corners down stairs, and then went into the hay loft."

Here's some random samplings of testimony:

Edson, trial p673:

"Q. Is there anything more you wish to say about the barn?
A. We searched the out-house in the barn, the vault underneath the out-house.
Q. Anything more?
A. No, sir, we completed the barn."

Morse, Preliminary, p257:

"Q. Is there a privy vault here at the east end of the barn?
A. Yes sir.
Q. At the south east end of the barn?
A. Yes sir."

Hilliard, Preliminary, p416:

"... From there I went to the rear end of the barn, and looked into a vault that was there. From that I went into the barn, up where they were overhauling the hay."

Hilliard, Trial, p1391:

"Q. Did you also look in the vault behind the barn?
A. Looked into it.
Q. Before you came to the barn?
A. Yes."

These little snippets seem to indicate to me that they treated the privy, although attached to the barn, as a separate building. That's why I believe you could not get from the privy into the barn without going outside first.

One thing I found curious was that Bridget testified that Andrew daily unlocked the barn door and left it open all day. No mention of whether the privy door had a lock or was locked at all.

Airmid · Post by **Airmid** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:25 am

Harry, I don't see any contradictions there.
The way I see it, there is an underground vault that is used as a waste deposit. This vault runs partly underneath the barn, and is partly outside of it. Inside the barn, it is underneath the privy and the privy empties into it. Outside the barn, there's an opening to the vault that is covered by loose boards, that can be used to toss away any waste that they didn't want to flush through the privy.
Wouldn't that fit the descriptions perfectly?

Airmid.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:49 am

Airmid, that's sounds logical and reasonable. Perhaps my use of the word "contradictory" was a poor choice. It was more like "confusing". What I was trying to say was that, IMO, they were not two separate buildings.

It would seem to me that since it had it's own separate entrance the privy was separated from the barn inside by a wall. Probably for privacy when in use.

Airmid · Post by **Airmid** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:04 am

Ah, I see! Thanks for explaining that, Harry.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:44 pm

Here is a drawing of the area back of the barn, where the bloody clothes were buried, according to the sketch provided by the New Bedford Mercury. I can't quite tell what I'm looking at in the drawing on the right. I think the vertical slats are the end of the back of the barn (on the very left of that 2nd picture) and that these other slat things are something else? Privy and fence? I don't know. Can anyone tell? It's rather amature- but better than nothing!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 1:14 am

I saw something like this recently at Roseland mansion where the privy in the barn had a clean out compartment where the servant could open up the back and empty the contents of the privy from time to time. what a pleasant job.

Tonight as the house is full, we are sleeping in the barn, I was thinking as I put down my pillow that this was the spot for the old privy, given the fact that the current barn is set back on the lot a little further than the original. So, goodnight one and all from the Privy!

Airmid · Post by **Airmid** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:35 am

Hehe Shelley! I hope you slept well!

Kat, I believe the picture on the left is the front of the barn, with the large door for carriages. Compare the sketches of the front of the barn in the Sourcebook on page 23 (Fall River Herald) and page 35 (New York Herald). I'm sorry, I have no way to digitalize those pictures to show them to you.
Both show a windows, partly covered by a shrub, in stead of the weird privy-like structure that is in your sketch.
There is, however another sketch that shows a structure just like it in the Sourcebook: on page 259. I'm not sure what newpaper it came from. It's part of a picture page with schematical sketches, that's done to illustrate the difference between the government's and the defendant's view of facts.

As to the picture on the right: yes, I agree, the far left on that picture seems to be a part of the barn. Personally I'd say that the rest of the picture shows the fence.
In this bit of testimony Frank Wixon is talking about the fence that divided the Borden and Chagnon properties (Trail p. 451):
"I got on that fence from the lumber, stepped on the stringer of the fence, which was probably 18 inches below the top of the fence, and worked myself along, ........"
Now I don't know what a "stringer" is (my dictionary is silent too) but it seems to be something sturdy enough to stand on. If I am correct, the fence between the Borden and Chagnon properties is directly behind the barn. So are we seeing the fence and "stringer" in this picture?

Airmid.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:08 am

If the clapboard barn siding is four inches wide, and if the sketch is accurate, the fence would be 56 inches (4' 8") high. If the siding is six inches wide, then the fence is 84 inches (7') high.

The stringers are the horizontal boards seen in the sketch, they are nailed to the upright posts, and the vertical boards are nailed to them.

Was the barn itself part of the fence (fence-barn-fence), or did the fence run continuously behind the barn?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:20 am

A closer look at the barn photo indicates four inch clapboard siding, allowing about seven feet of height for the side door. It also shows the fence to be about 56 inches high in the same photo.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:18 am

Like Kat, I am confused about what the drawing on the right side represents. Here is a portion of the drawing of the Borden property from Len Rebello's classic book (page 45). (Len graciously lets Kat and myself post from it). I added the red lettering.

I estimate that there was at least 17-18 feet behind the Borden barn to the fence that separated the Chagnon yard and pear orchard from the Borden barn.

This drawing shows the clothes were buried near the fence that separated the Borden property from Mrs. Churchill's. (She must have loved that!

) The doghouse shown is actually behind a fence (not shown) that separated the Churchill and Chagnon yards.

Is the right side of this newspaper drawing supposed to represent the northeast corner of the barn? And the Privy?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:13 pm

I didn't realize the distance between the barn and the fence, it looked like the fence ran up to the barn in the sketch. Given the additional distance, the fence should be higher than 56 inches.

The fence represented in the sketch could be the one between the Churchill yard and the Borden yard. The angle may not be represented properly, but it is intended to show where the clothes were buried.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:17 pm

The phrase "back of the barn" has been long used to refer to something that is more or less a secret. But I haven't heard it used nowadays.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:54 pm

Wasn't there a sink or something in the basement? I recall that that's where they washed out their "time of the month rags". Or am I wrong.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:17 pm

The topic is the privy out the barn, snokkums.
The girls did not use that privy according to Bridget.

I made a mistake I think.
I meant the horizontal slats on the left of the second picture might be the end of the barn. That would make the vertical slat objects a fence and/or whatever. But looks like it juts to the right at the end of the barn- like towards Mrs. Churchill's property, that is if everything is straight.
Yes to the NE, Har.

The lumber however, mentioned here, which made it easier to climb the fence, was in the middle to SW part of the fence.

Also Kieran measured the rear fence, I think? 6 Feet?
If you look up Kieran's measurements Yooper you may find the exact height.
Thanks for the input you guys.
What would the thick dark area be along the lowest level in my picture, second slat?

(I checked those little drawings in the Sourcebook. Those are the front and side of the barn. They sure are cute. Even I could draw those tho!

)

Airmid · Post by **Airmid** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:17 am

The structure in front of the barn (west side) that puzzled me in the well! Aha!
Heh, I should have checked the pictures from the Gallery on this site, there's even a nice photograph of the structure!
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... wellbw.jpg
Shown on the right is the barn, with the large carriage door. The well structure is in the center; and on the left is the shrub that covered it in the drawings and other pictures taken from the street, now without leaves though.

As for the black thingie, in the third picture Kat posted, the one that shows the side of the barn with an indentation for privy door, you can see there's a wooden pole, or stem, set in the ground that runs up to the "stringer". In this picture (http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... cecrop.jpg) it's easier to spot, because I can see two or three of such supports in the fence. I think the drawing depicts such a support pole.

As for the fence jutting out in the drawing: I wouldn't worry too much about that. After all, the drawing on the left, of the barn and the well, isn't exactly true to nature either, isn't it? I would be inclined to say that the artist combined two different pictures of the barn for that picture; and I wouldn't be surprised if the same happened with the drawing on the right.
Either that, or the artist had no notion of drawing in perspective at all!

Airmid.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:06 am

Yes I think it is a matter of perspective.
Also the well drawing. Really, I myself am bad at perspective. I think I could draw this stuff tho, as badly.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:12 am

If the girls didn't use the privy out in the barn, where did they go?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:16 pm

The pull chain water closet in the cellar. Both had chamberpots in their room. Lizzie had her "toilet room" which was actually a closet with a blue curtain drawn across it where her chamberpot reposed. You may recall she visited the cellar at least twice on August 4th with her pot, once upon rising and later about 8:45 that night with Alice.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:32 pm

And later alone the same night (about 15 or 20 minutes later), and Alice did not know of it.

Snokkums, Bridget was asked and she said the girls didn't use the *Privy* in the barn, but Andrew did and sometimes Abby.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:01 pm

I wonder if Lizzie went down the front stairs the second time that night- or maybe Alice was snoring away and somehow missed Lizzie clambering over her bed with the lamp to get down the back stairs.

I think there were two known trips with the chamberpot to the cellar- 9 am and 8:45 p.m. but I wonder if Lizzie used her chamberpot in her "toilet room" during the day when she was plopped out on her little lounge in her room, or did she make other trips to her toilet downstairs during that long day? I can't imagine not having to go all day long. I bet nobody would question her if she went downstairs wearing her wrapper to her bathroom in the cellar during that day.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:07 pm

Just thinking about those bloody clothes in front of the washing cauldron in the cellar- wouldn't it have been clever for Lizzie to have given the man (was his name Chace?) her stained dress in a box to bury behind the barn when the Bordens' clothing was buried the second time? That was one way to get it out of the house, and explain a bloody dress in case anyone asked.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:55 am

Shelley @ Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:01 pm wrote:I wonder if Lizzie went down the front stairs the second time that night- or maybe Alice was snoring away and somehow missed Lizzie clambering over her bed with the lamp to get down the back stairs.

Yes Lizzie went down the front stairs the second time that night (alone)- the light followed the same route as when Alice accompanied Lizzie.
Alice was bathing in her room- Andrew's and Abby's room, and had shut her doors for privacy.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:43 am

Don't you just love it when things follow an orderly and expected pattern!?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:37 am

I'm sorry- I don't know what you mean?
Do you mean it may not have happened that way?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:39 am

No, I mean it is reassuring when things happen just as one expects them to have done and it makes sense. Of course occasionally the unexpected might occur, which really throws a curve ball- but going down the front stairs seemed the logical solution- and so it was! i