Oh my ---- books about Lizzie

terrie · Post by **terrie** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:38 pm

I am just now reading Engstrom's book, and must say I am a bit taken aback. Emma a harridon? Andrew an adulteror? Lizzie a crazed female stalker? I had no idea. I had thought this was a respected book on the case... now I wonder. It's an interesting enough read --- just so far fetched.

I got another book called *Be the Judge, Be the Jury* by Doreen Rappaport, in which photographs of Bridget are labeled as being of Abby and vice versa. The photo labeled as Andrew is decidedly NOT Andrew. It makes me wonder what other inaccuracies are within. Sheeesh.

terrie · Post by **terrie** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:55 pm

By the way --- I hear that new information is coming forth and new books are in the making. Does anyone know what news there may be? Or from where (where does one find news regarding a murder from 1892)?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:34 am

MondoLizzie has good updated info
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizzie/

You can also try "SouthcoastToday" online.

terrie · Post by **terrie** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:36 pm

thanks Kat!

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:12 pm

Engstroms book is a novel--fiction, not fact.

It's good for shaking up your thinking about the case, but not much else.

Like Jackie Collins, a good trashy beach read.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:05 am

I was frankly horrified by Engstrom. At least 95% of it is purely the author's imagination. I felt the entire thing should have been written without using the names of real people & real events, with the only Lizzie connection being maybe a blurb along the lines of, "Inspired by the strange case of Lizzie Borden".

I don't understand what would motivate an author to write something so badly researched & far removed from the facts.

terrie · Post by **terrie** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:25 pm

I am with you, Tina-Kate. Novels are fine...but if you are building a tale based on actual events, I think you need to be realistic and fair in their portrayal. I do like some of Engstrom's writing, and she does seem to have some sympathy for the much maligned Mrs Borden (in my opinion), but the basics of the case are quite misrepresented by Engstrom, which bothers me.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:08 pm

Yes Tina-Kate: I'm with you. How about poor Emma. Boy !

If Engstrom's novel used fictional names the book would be remaindered in two weeks.

It's perfectly ok to twist the plot, add characters, scenes, etc.,. but, where dose one stop? When does the story become external or foreign, about different people and reflect very badly on the real person, as in this case, Lizzie?

In truth an author can go as far as he feels needed to enhance or supplement his/her story and make it captivating. There is nothing wrong with that. As long as it's a good read and can stand on its own merits without the Lizzie name.

There are people who believe Engstrom wrote a great book. Perhaps she did. Perhaps it's about Ms. Engstrom's life? Maybe she is writing about herself? Without calling it "crap" (no pun terrie) I must confess it was too much for this person's head. Fiction based on fiction.

As a selling scheme a writer must really weigh out the merits of profiting on an existing market or stratagem such as the Lizzie Borden story. Nothing wrong with that. Just try not to go to far. Engstrom goes to far. Once again, Lizzie sells.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:03 pm

My major pet-peeve with books is that books are sometimes written in such a way as to imply that it is all true without actually saying it is. I don't know how many books I've read thinking it was actual fact only to find out that it was a work of fiction. All works of fiction should be clearly labeled as such but many I've read are not. If a book is to be written about a real person then the "facts" should be facts. If a book is based upon a real person's life then a notice of that should be place on and in the book where people can actually see it. I don't like being mis-lead. I would like to see a notice like:

"This is a work of fiction but based loosely on a true life event."

The book, "Island of The Blue Dolphins" is mainly fiction as far as the day-to-day details but it is based upon a true account of an Indian girl being left behind for eighteen years and then being rescued. The author made that clear in the back of the book. Many books, though, are very mis-leading.

The fact that so many books on Lizzie are full of falsehoods and oft-repeated unfounded "facts" is what makes me advise people interested in the Borden case to dig into the archives and source material before reading too many books. I came on this forum with a lot of "facts" in my head that I had "learned" in Borden books that I quickly found were not facts at all. I have a lot to learn, and relearn, about this case.

Whatever "crap" sells books I guess. Buyer beware is my thought. Some books make excellent door stops, by the way. I kid you not.

-1bigsteve (o:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:41 am

On Home and Garden Network recently I actually saw a designer drill a big hole in a pile of books and make a lamp out of them!
I have to say I cringed!

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:32 am

When I was browsing at the bed and breakfast gift shop last Monday I found a book called "Lizzie Borden: A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890's." I am really enjoying it because it doesn't have anyone's theory overwhelming the book. Just facts, and written clearly. Has anyone else read this?

william · Post by **william** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:46 am

A novel is, by definition, fictional prose. Engstrom's book and Evan Hunter's 'Lizzie," both proclaim this on the dust jacket.

Would that some other authors of the Lizzie Borden genre had followed their example!

kfactor · Post by **kfactor** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:15 am

Angel @ Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:32 am wrote:When I was browsing at the bed and breakfast gift shop last Monday I found a book called "Lizzie Borden: A Case Book of Family and Crime in the 1890's." I am really enjoying it because it doesn't have anyone's theory overwhelming the book. Just facts, and written clearly. Has anyone else read this?

I am reading this book now, and I am enjoying it very much. It is great to have all of the newspaper accounts, etc. in one place and to compare the discrepancies in them.

-Kristin

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:57 am

I bought the "Casebook" at the FRHS. Yes, it's excellent! Strangely, we haven't seemed to talk much about this book compared to some others. Definitely one of the better books out there. I particularly enjoyed the tidbits/quotes from people who knew Lizzie.

terrie · Post by **terrie** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:25 am

awww pooh! I saw that book and didn't get it because I wasn't sure about it. I did get a large paperback entitled *Lizzie Borden Did She or Didn't She* which is a collection of newspaper articles from the time (along with sometimes hilarious advertisements...including one for a woman's sprint team). I also got Kent's Sourcebook, and Hoffman's companion book. Now I want the Casebook!

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:37 am

Tina-Kate @ Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:57 am wrote:I bought the "Casebook" at the FRHS. Yes, it's excellent! Strangely, we haven't seemed to talk much about this book compared to some others. Definitely one of the better books out there. I particularly enjoyed the tidbits/quotes from people who knew Lizzie.

I just finished it. It WAS excellent. It gave the facts and did it in such a way to make it very understandable and fascinating. And the book isn't that expensive. I think it is very helpful. I enjoyed the stories about Lizzie from the people who knew her too.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:06 am

Kat @ Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:41 pm wrote:On Home and Garden Network recently I actually saw a designer drill a big hole in a pile of books and make a lamp out of them!
I have to say I cringed!

I hate to see books being abused, I love books, but if Brown's book was among those being turned into a lamp I think I could sleep a little bit better at night.

Now that was naughty of me wasn't it?

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:13 am

william @ Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:46 am wrote:A novel is, by definition, fictional prose. Engstrom's book and Evan Hunter's 'Lizzie," both proclaim this on the dust jacket.

Would that some other authors of the Lizzie Borden genre had followed their example!

I agree with you, William. That should apply to "Lizzie" books and others too. There is a lot of fiction out there being passed around as "fact." It's enough to make my "Lizzieitis" flare up.

-1bigsteve (o:

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:02 am

I share your love for books, Bigsteve, and keep my eyes open at book sales for Lizzie books that I can pass along to folks in the forum that don't have them. But I have to confess that I always pass up copies of Arnold Brown's book--that is a gospel that I simply cannot spread in good conscience!

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:09 am

[/quote]I hate to see books being abused, I love books, but if Brown's book was among those being turned into a lamp I think I could sleep a little bit better at night.

Now that was naughty of me wasn't it?

-1bigsteve (o:[/quote]

Could not resist this---

A few years ago I was working on my computer when a giant blow fly was dive bombing me. I picked up Arnold Brown's book & tried to smash the thing for several minutes. The fly escaped.

So, it's true, thinks me, Billy Borden can't even harm a fly!

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:10 am

Hmmm---I think I need to learn to use the quote feature---but then again, I suppose I WAS quoting myself!

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:17 pm

Killing a blow-fly with Arnold Brown's book, Tina? Hmmm... maybe you should have tried using, "I'm Right About Everything" by Ray S. or his other books, "I Levitate When I Walk," "Trust Me," "I'm Right And You're Wrong!," "Brown Is Golden" and of course his best seller, "You Can Look It Up." I hear all these books by Ray S. are real killers.

I have a hard time with the quotes too. I'm resigned to using just the quote button in the top right corner of each post.

I know what you mean, Stuart. I feel the same way. Brown gave me the feeling, through his writing style, that he was saying, "I have the answers, and if you sit at me feet, children, I will impart this valuable knowledge to you. Ready? Now, chapter one, Once upon a time..." On one page he made the comment, "The answers are out there and together we will find them..." It was like he was saying that he already knew the answers and he was willing to share his "grand revelation" with us "unfortunates." I couldn't read his book without wanting to say, "You're not B.S.ing me, are you, Uncle Arnold? I mean it's getting a bit deep around here, isn't it? What's that smell?" If his writing style had been different I probably would have enjoyed the book, to a degree anyway. He probably didn't mean to come across that way and probably would have been a pleasure to talk with. His writing style and his lack of documentation made me feel like a dumb thumb-sucking fool. I have a hard time with his theory.

-1bigsteve (o:

terrie · Post by **terrie** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:51 am

I have a book entitled Mysterious New England (a collection of tales from Yankee Magazine) and it has a chapter on the case. It seems to pretty accurate, albeit short. It was originally published in 1966, and the editors say it created a flood of letters to the magazine.

One of the letters is from Marion Hicks Campbell and it is reprinted in the book. She says she knew a very melancholy man in the early 1900's who clearly had seen alot of suffering. The mans story (which, of course, he rarely told) was that he had been a handyman, taking odd jobs here and there, including at the Borden's. He had taken a shine to Lizzie, and helped her in any way he could. One day, he says, she called him over and had him put a hatchet (which she happened to be cleaning at the time) in the barn and take a wrapped parcel of who-knows-what to the city dump. He did as he was bid, and returned to see a crowd gathered at the Bordens. When he heard what had happened, he was sickened and knew instantly that Lizzie must be the culprit. To avoid further murders, he snuck into the barn and hid the hatchet and then and rushed back to the dump, but his parcel was lost in the garbage of the morning. He says he never got over the thought that it held bloody clothing.

Okay -- this sounds like a thousand other similar stories, and doesn't bear up well to me. It is amazing how these tales get generated, and muddy the waters. I rather wonder why Yankee Magazine chose this particular letter to reprint... and I wonder what the other letters said. Maybe one of them had some unknown truth in it?

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:17 am

One day, he says, she called him over and had him put a hatchet (which she happened to be cleaning at the time) in the barn and take a wrapped parcel of who-knows-what to the city dump. He did as he was bid, and returned to see a crowd gathered at the Bordens. When he heard what had happened, he was sickened and knew instantly that Lizzie must be the culprit.

The only possible time this could have happened was during the time Bridget went upstairs and the time Lizzie called her down.

I don't think so.

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