How much do we knowabout Bridget?

[snokkums]

I have been reading thru some old posts, and got to wondering, how much do we know about Bridget. Its seems about the only thing I know is that she came from Ireland, and was illerate. And some say she had a dark past. Anyone know anymore on her? I do know she ended up getting married and moving to Montana; it just seems info is really sparce on her.

[1bigsteve]

I know about as much as you do about Bridget, Snokks. I don't feel that she was involved in the planning and or killings but I do feel that she knew much more about the murders than what she told at the trial. I think she was a working woman who got caught up in that case and tried to distance herself from it afterward. The story about her trying to reveal a "secret" may have been true. Sounds reasonable, but who knows for sure. I think she just tried to live a simple life like so many other people in her day.

-1bigsteve (o:

[doug65oh]

Minor thing here but I do have to ask: Where's the proof of Bridget's alleged illiteracy? The only place I've ever seen that batted about is here, backsourced (by William I believe) to a couple of authors who - for lack of better phrase - had some axe to grind in their published works on the Borden case.

What evidence we have readily at hand (as it seems to me anyway - and I mean Bridget's own sworn testimony) seems to leave the literacy question open. There's as much to suggest one as there is the other nearly, is there not?

Now I don't mean to harp or pick nits here, but merely to caution in favor of thoughtful deliberation on some things. In casting Bridget as illiterate (or taking someones word that she was) are we not making the same mistake now as was made then? Fostering the stereotypes commonly applied in those days - That race or ethnic origin has some bearing on one's ability to read? Or one's affinity for ... spiritual pleasures?

Some were illiterate. Some were drunkards. Some were petty thieves and even at times murderers. But none of these applied to everyone fresh off the boat - from Ireland or anywhere else.

Right.. These nickel boxes of soap aren't worth a tinker's damn for platforms. I think I'll hush.

[snokkums]

I wasn't trying to imply she was illiterate, just what I have heard on certian shows about the crime itself. So I was wondering if she was or not. Most of the time in that time the hired help were illiterate. Not all the time, but most of the time they were. If they were educated, they wouldn't, for the most part, wouldn't be cleaning someones' house.

Besides, I was just wondering what she was like, what she liked to do and such.

[doug65oh]

Goodness sakes, I knew what you meant. I've heard the same thing myself. It might be true - but then again it might not. There's not enough definitive to suggest either that I know of. That's really all I was getting at, and the unfairness in the judgements we make at times - both then and now.

[Jeff]

I have heard she liked to drink quite a bit out in Montana and she was known to wear men's shoes.
She was said to have wanted to reveal a dark secret when she thought she was dying, but recovered and never spilled the beans on that.

[Kat]

I recall asking if Bridget was illterate and could not tell time by a clock face.
It had to do solely with her testimony about not reading the little note Knowlton showed her and also her saying there were clocks all over the house but that she paid little attention to them- she figured time by how much she had left to do, chore-wise.
We don't know either way- tho it has been thoroughly discussed.

[NESpinster]

I would love to know more about Bridget--problem is, Ireland is full of Bridget Sullivans!

I don't know that she was necessarily illiterate--she would at least, as a good Catholic, have needed to learn her catechism.

I doubt if she had any dark secrets except maybe some suspicions about what Lizzie got up to one hot August morning. She may have felt that she should have said more at the trial but didn't because she liked Lizzie-as she said--and didn't want to see her friend hang.

I do recall reading somewhere that Bridget was rather quiet and timid. She was a hard worker, she liked the Bordens (probably was grateful to be employed by "respectable" people), she was Irish-born and Catholic and she enjoyed chatting with the neighbor's Irish maid. Poor girl was probably homesick but trying to help out her family back home.

Later on, as already mentioned, she moved out to Montana and very improbably married a man who was also named Sullivan!!

I think she was a nice, ordinary girl who got caught up in events she never could have imagined--otherwise she probably would never have left Ireland for America at all--poor Bridget!

[1bigsteve]

I think you are about as close to the truth as we will probably get, NE. I think Bridget knew more than she let on about. I picture Bridget as a simple woman who just wanted to live a simple life, like so many of us.

-1bigsteve (o:

[NESpinster]

Thanks, steve!

[doug65oh]

I found a few things out a day or two ago - thanks to Constantine who's presently across the water visiting the Emerald Isle - that might shed a bit more light on Bridget Sullivan - if not who she was, at least what made her the person she became. I should also add that Bridget's ancestral home was a topic I'd never heard discussed, nor looked into before.

The following bit here comes from a thread in the privy:

Allihies Parish? If that's the correct locale here's a page with a few pictures and some general information. I love their page header slug: "260 miles from Dublin - Allihies Parish - as far away as you can get." It's at http://homepage.eircom.net/~allihies/

Apparently some highwayman thiefed their former domain name: "Check the news page on the latest on the Domain name hijack drama!"

I'm tempted to head over to the pub for a pint.

I just found another link, thought I'd add it: http://www.allihies.ie/ has some wonderful photos!

Here's an irony for you: There is (or apparently will soon be) an Allihies Copper Mine Museum opened. Where did Bridget end up in the states?? What was the area known for in those days?
---------
There - the worst is done. (I'm no great fan of quoting myself!)

The aspect of it that I find most interesting - we might say (if we were a mind to) that in a very strange way Bridget came full circle. The Sullivan farm at Allihies was in (or not far from) copper country it seems. So her eventual landing in Montana - itself copper country - makes sense. Strange as it may sound, in a way Bridget was going home - if not to a place she knew, at least to a life she had known, and was used to.

Even the "Sullivan marrying Sullivan" makes sense. According to at least one source - I just found it a minute or two ago, at http://homepage.eircom.net/~allihies/pages/mine.html - a good number of miners from Allihies and surrounding environs also crossed the water, landing in or around Butte, Montana.

It's not much, but... There it is.

[Allen]

Thanks for the links and for reprinting the info from the privy dougoh. Of all the people involved in the case Bridget has always been the biggest mystery. Any information about her or where she came from I find totally fascinating. We actually know surprisingly little about her in the scheme of things, especially considering what a large role she played in this case.

In my opinion she was a hard working girl who probably kept pretty much to herself. I feel she posessed a great deal of pride in herself and in her work. I have always pictured her as a very friendly and charming person, and agree she probably wanted nothing more than to live a simple life.

[snokkums]

I know about as much as you do about Bridget, Snokks. I don't feel that she was involved in the planning and or killings but I do feel that she knew much more about the murders than what she told at the trial. I think she was a working woman who got caught up in that case and tried to distance herself from it afterward. The story about her trying to reveal a "secret" may have been true. Sounds reasonable, but who knows for sure. I think she just tried to live a simple life like so many other people in her day.

-1bigsteve (o:

I feel, too, that she knew more than what she was telling. I think she might have helped clean Lizzie up after the fact. I don't think she was purposely trying to hide anything; she just wanted to keep her job and she was loyal.

[doug65oh]

You're welcome, Melissa. When you get 'round to looking at some of the links with photos - well, Allihies is for my money gorgeous. There's ... not much there from the looks of some of the photos, but it's at least a pretty place.

I'd agree with your assessment of Bridget. It’s interesting in a way. She had no “skill” to speak of other than those commonly gained or used in the work she did, but what she had she made the best of, gaining excellent repute.

The big surprise for me was discovering that copper just might be the key to at least part of her mystery – that “dark past” we often hear mentioned and those later years we know so little about. A few little things we do know certainly make sense placed in that context.

[Nadzieja]

I think Bridget knew alot more than she shared with anyone. She was probably very thankful to have the job even if the circumstances weren't the greatest. I don't know if I'm right but weren't the immigrants (not just Irish) treated kind of badly by the people that were established here for a long time. Being she was new here she knew that the Borden's were well off and I'm sure was also a little uneasy of them having money and her just a servant. I'm sure she saw well off people with priviledge and she probably figured that if it was her word against any of the Borden's that she would lose. Also I'm sure she didn't know if there would be any repercussions for talking against her employer. She probably just shut up, did what she had to do and left at the soonest possiblity. This is just an opinion that I have as of now, I haven't read everything that I want to yet.

[doug65oh]

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Bridget knew more than she shared - or for that matter knew more than she ever cared to know about the goings-on in the Borden household. Somewhere I remember reading (I think it's in Porter's book but it may have been in the newspapers - it's Porter, if you have that pdf, look at pg. 54) that she really only stayed in the household because of Mrs. Borden: "Now that she is gone, however, I will stay
there no longer than I have to, and will leave just as soon as the police will allow me.”

Now realizing that the source here is Porter, it's difficult to think that the quotation is concocted or the like.

That she only remained in the household because Mrs. Borden desired it says a lot about Bridget, doesn't it? As has been pointed out, Bridget Sullivan was known even in police circles as one with an excellent reputation. She could have gone anywhere she chose, but stayed because Mrs. Borden wanted her to.

Fidelity to her employers? Oh, she actually maintained that pretty well - because both of them were dead by early afternoon of the 4th of August 1892.

You're right, too about treatment of the immigrants - sometimes by members of their own immigrant group! A number of years ago in college I remember reading stories of immigrant experiences, Irish, Italian, others. In some places the prevailing attitudes among new arrivals were something along lines of, 'I got mine, now you've got to get yours.'
It makes me think of of a rather bitter piece of Irish humor. Two Irishmen of the same Cork village were having some rather heated words on the street. One says to the other at last, "Here I am just off the boat and you - nose in the air like you don't even know me. What is it, Michael O'Herlihey that suddenly makes you so much better than me?"

"I got off the boat last week - that's what makes me better than you!" O'Herlihey replied.

[Nadzieja]

Hi, I've been spending most of my time (the little I have lately) in the source documents, I'm almost done with Lizzie's inquest & about to get into the others. I have Porters book & read page 54. I really wish that they made her elaborate on her statement about the family relations--that things didn't go in the house as they should and that she wanted to leave. My question would have been what do you mean things didn't go in the house as they should. Mrs. Borden must have been very good to her, and possibly thought of her kindly because the two sisters sure didn't seem to show her much respect much less affection.

[doug65oh]

Oh I know what you mean. As far as pressing the issue with Bridget at that moment goes - well it would have to be done very carefully, or you'd end up out on your ear. No matter how well-aquainted we might be with familial soiled linens, you might say - it usually takes a lot to air them out in public, know what I mean? A proper woman (servant or otherwise) wouldn't do such a thing without cause.

It's fascinating to try to eke out what might have been running thru Bridget's mind - and this is presuming that the interview did actually happen and wasn't spun out of whole cloth. I can understand why she might have been reluctant.

Now Uncle Hiram had no qualms at all about calling a spade as he saw a spade - and turnabout being fair play, Lizzie zapped him right back when her turn came.

[nbcatlover]

I'm always surprised that more information on her previous employers never surfaced. You know, some matron in Philadelphia, etc. telling her friends that Bridget had cleaned for her in the summer of xxxx, and then the information making the papers. Of course, part of the problem was that there seemed to be so many Bridget Sullivans who had immigrated from Ireland.

And Sullivan was such a common last name. I know a Sullivan who married another Sullivan myself. Today's example would be new immigrants from India. Entire villages and regions have the last name Patel and they are not necessarily related. It make tracking family associations very hard.

There was, I believe, some confusion about the name of the cousin Bridget had in Fall River. I believe it was the Dennis Sullivan she initially stayed with when she came to the U.S. Didn't she stay with the cousin after the murders, until the police found her a job with the sheriff in New Bedford?

"Re: Bridget Did It!"
Posted by Kat on May-23rd-02 at 4:52 PM
In response to Message #18.

In Bridget's Prelim. Test. pgs. 45-47 she gives her history before she came to the Borden's:
-Landed in Newport, R.I., (1886) stayed a little while with her friends, a married man named Dennis Sullivan..2 or 3 weeks.
-Then worked at The PERRY house (hotel)=12 months Newport.
-Came to Bethlehem, PA., for 12 months..Mathew Smiley (did not know what business he was in)
-Was with Mrs. Reed in Highland Ave, F.R.(?), 15 months
-Was with Mrs. Remington, in High Street., F.R. (?), 7 months
-Then Bordens.

--Adams asks her if she ever worked for "a Mr. Saunders, or Landers" which she denies. We don't know what this name signifies.
--He asks her if anyone walked her home Wednesday night, which she denies.
Pg. 51-52:
Q: Did you have any visitors?
A: Sometimes
Q: Did you have any men call on you?
A: No Sir.
Q: Ever since you have been at this house?
A: Not in Fall River
Q: While you have been in this house?
A: Not anybody from Fall River
Q: I did not ask you where they were from. When did you have anybody call on you, not from Fall River?
A: About two or three months before that I guess
Q: That is the last time any man has called on you at the house?
A: Yes Sir
Q: Has any man walked home with you?
A: No Sir
Q: Has any man seen you in the back yard?
A: No Sir
Q: Have you met anybody in the back yard for the last two or three months?
A: No Sir
Q: Or sit down with anybody on the back step, or in the back yard?
A: No Sir
Q: Never in your life?
A: I have sat down with girls on the back stairs and in the kitchen.
Q: Have you ever sat out on the back side of the house, or in the yard with girls?
A: No Sir
Q: Or with anybody?
A: No Sir

--He might have KNOWN SOMETHING, in order to ask these QUESTIONS...


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There were no police interviews with Dennis Sullivan regarding Bridget's character or history. Where are the interviews with her former employers? You would think that there would be more "in depth" investigation of Bridget by the police. Of course, since most of the police were Irish too, it may have been done "off the record".

The above questions make it seem like someone told the police that a woman from the Borden house was meeting a man in the yard.

[Kat]

There were articles in the old LBQ on Bridget:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... BQAuth.htm

Curry, Judy P. "Letter to the Editor." Lizzie Borden Quarterly I.4 (October 1993): 4.
Responding to a previous inquiry regarding biographical details of Bridget Sullivan, Curry provides a few facts, including Bridget's last known address and the names of her parents.

Cusack, Mary T. "Letter to the Editor." Lizzie Borden Quarterly I.3 (July 1993): 4.
Letter requesting more articles on Bridget Sullivan, specifically answering several biographical questions posed by Cusack.

O'Dwyer, Richard. "Bridget Sullivan, Before and After." Lizzie Borden Quarterly III.2 (April 1996): 1, 11-12.
Genealogist O'Dwyer, an expert in the Beara Peninsula in Ireland where Bridget Sullivan was born, provides a detailed family history of the elusive Sullivan. Included is a photograph of Allihes Mine, Townland of Billerough, Parish of Allihes, Beara Peninsula, County Cork, Ireland (the townland where Bridget Sullivan was born and lived her first nineteen years).

Quigley, George E. "The Borden Maid: Myths and Legends." Lizzie Borden Quarterly II.4/5 (Fall/Winter 1995): 6, 16.
Quigley offers some biographical material on Borden maid Bridget Sullivan, disputing previously printed documentation regarding her life and whereabouts following the murders in 1892. Unfortunately, several of his mathematical calculations are incorrect, marring an otherwise interesting read.