Has anyone heard or read this.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:25 pm

I was surfing on some other website and came across this statement:

"Neither Lizzie or Emma spoke to Uncle John because he was planning to reduce their inheirtance and Abby would put the farm in her name and make Johns brother-in-law, John MOrse, the caretaker."

I know Andrew was thinking about changing his will, and that the girls were peaved at him for putting some property in Abbys name, but I never heard about Uncle John reducing their inheirtance.

Does anyone know about this?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:13 am

snokkums @ Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:25 pm wrote:I was surfing on some other website and came across this statement: ...

Robin, would you please state the source for this "other website". It would be helpful if you would copy the web site address from the URL bar, and then paste it here. Thanks.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:26 pm

If the farm were put in Abby's name and Uncle John supported it, he was involved in reducing their inheritance because the farm itself was part of the inheritance.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:02 pm

This is what I was trying to discuss a few months ago. Victoria Lincoln stated she thought this may have been a motive. Andrew saw what a problem the girls made when he gave a house to Abby five years before, so he was trying to keep it hushed up that he was going to give the farm to Abby. Abby was probably pushing Andrew to do something like that because she knew how much the girls hated her. She wanted to ensure a place for herself after Andrew died because she was probably fearful that she would be forced out of her home by her stepdaughters. Lizzie was probably already harrassing Abby (or "gaslighting") or trying slow bouts of poison. But when her eavesdropping paid off and she caught wind of why John Morse was in town to help Andrew with the legal matters in transferring the farm, she knew she had to move immediately to kill Abby. I think this is entirely plausible.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:17 pm

Hmm...Well, one possible source for the story about Morse, the farm and so forth might be found in this paragraph:

Meals were not always taken together, and conflict had come to a head between the two daughters and their father about his decision to divide up valuable property among relatives before his death – a house had been turned over to relatives of their stepmother, and Uncle John Morse had come to visit that week to facilitate transfer of farm property, which included what had been a summer home for the Borden daughters. Shortly before the murders, a heated argument had taken place which resulted in both Emma and Lizzie leaving home on extended "vacations"; Lizzie, however, decided to cut her trip short and return early.

If that is the source (the "other website" referenced above) personally I'd run the other direction as fast as I could screaming bloody murder - because there are no supporting citations at all for the section in which that little tidbit appears. (This article or section is missing citations or needs footnotes. Using inline citations helps guard against copyright violations and factual inaccuracies. (November 2007)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_Borden

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:22 pm

Well, this theory is in Lincoln's book. I know a lot of people don't like Lincoln for some of her other ideas, like the epilepsy thing, but I don't dismiss everything she wrote.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:32 pm

Something pushed Lizzie over the edge that morning. Everyone agrees the attack on Abbie was brutal and fueled by hate, anger and desperation. I think it was quite possible that she and Abbie had words in the quest room, out of Bridgets hearing. Maybe Abbie said something like "I won't have to put up with you and Emma when your father passes, he's leaving me the farm" She was at that time upstairs in what was considered Emma and Lizzies domain. If that's the case, then John didn't tell all he knew, and if he had of, then Lizzie might not have been so lucky. But if Andrew hadn't said anything to John yet, maybe Lizzie overheard Abbie and Andrew talking about it after John left, and before Andrew left. If that was the case, then John didn't know about it yet, and couldn't say anything, But Lizzie would know that he was going to know about it that very afternoon at lunch. That would in deed light the fuse.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:43 pm

I'm pretty sure this orginally was a Lincolnism, something along the lines of she had heard thru her personal banking world connections that Andrew had planned to transfer ownership of one of the Swansea farms. I think it's used in the Blood Relations play too.

Altho it's based in rumors, I actually don't entirely dismiss it, altho I tend to think the circumstances/details of the possible transaction may not be as Lincoln heard it. It sure would increase the motive too.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:09 pm

I wonder if Andrew ever thought of signing the Ferry Street house over to Abby so she would have a house in town to live in some day away from his daughters. The girls didn't want it any more, but I'm sure it would have ticked them off to no end if they found out that they were selling it back to Andrew, only to have him give it to Abby.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:15 pm

The days leading up to the murder both Abbie and Andrew were sick, that might have made Abbie even more fearful of something happening to Andrew leaving her alone with the girls. She might have been mentioning that to Andrew, and been over heard by Lizzie. Had Lizzie actually been planning to murder Abbie, I think she would have waited until John left, something set her off, and made it impossible for her to wait for a better time. She killed her father not knowing when John was going to show back up and actually he could have at any time, before. during or after she'd done it.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:48 pm

If anyone believes that Lizzie killed Abbie because of the farm, when Lizzie obviously did not kill when 1/2 the Fourth Street House was turned over in Abbie's name- do they know how much that farm was worth- to kill for? Any ideas? Are you comfortable with that $ as motive?

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:02 pm

I'm not comfortable with the money angle. but something set Lizzie off (or somebody off) I've heard that the top three reasons for murder are sex, love or money. That being the case, which of those most applies, it would almost have to be money. If she just wanted Abbie dead, she could have just shoved her down the stairs,( basement or front stairs), and hoped for the best. or if she didn't die then, pop her over the head. Which then would have been proclaimed an accident, and spared her father. But something ran amok, and pushed her right on over the edge, Abbies murder was hatefilled and brutal. And I don't think it was premeditated, at least not in that way.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:52 pm

I think the money was only part of it. I think her hatred of Abby went over the top when she may have found out that her father was validatng Abby by giving her part of what the girls felt should be theirs.Lizzie could have felt betrayed and that was the last straw.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:43 am

I know Andrew was thinking about changing his will

--snokkums, partial quote

A will was not found, that we know of, so we don't know if Andrew was "changing" it. There was a *story* that Abbie was helping him inventory his possessions in readiness to make a will.

The thing about Uncle John- in my opinion he didn't need to know every detail of Andrew's plans- if Andrew wanted to change the deed of the farm over to Abby he wouldn't need Uncle John's presence for that. Also, it would seem that Uncle John might not be the person to entrust Abbie's future to, since he was more closely allied with the Borden girls as their mother's brother. (That's my opinion).

Also, it was mentioned that maybe Uncle John Morse did not yet know about any financial plans or changes that Andrew was possibly about to make, and killing Andrew and Abbie before he found out about these supposed changes might lend to the motive to kill the day and time it happened- before JVM found out. (If I'm understanding these posts correctly.) But Morse had spent plenty of time with Andrew Wednesday evening and Thursday morning- a couple of hours total, anyway- and not in Lizzie's presence, so what they talked about couldn't be assessed by Lizzie-as-murderer, and probably was not a reason that the folks were killed before Morse returned. There may be another reason involving Morse, but I don't think it's that one. Just my opinion.

As for the Ferry Street house- Andrew had paid the girls for it already so I'd think that would have been a good property to give to Abbie because it would show them all fairness. He had given it to the girls initially, anyway, and bought it back. And if he gave Abbie that property it would not be the same as cash- which the girls got. It would be an investment in the future- rents and all that, and the ability to sell it if it became more valuable.

I do think property disputes within the family were part of the overall problem in the Borden household. If a lot of Andrew's assets were tied up in property, that means less cash to spend- meaning his financial planning seems to show he was looking more toward future earnings than present cash.