Hired assassin

[Angel]

I think that if Lizzie and someone else hired someone to do the deed, then it would have been premeditated and therefore been thought out a lot more sensibly. If one wants to get away with murder, one would want to be as far away as possible from the scene and have a foolproof alibi. If it had been a murder for hire, Lizzie would have, for example, stayed in Marion or at least been far away from the house in sight of witnesses who could verify her whereabouts. No one going through the big decision to hire someone would have come up with the alibi that she was in and out of the house, ironing, moseying about the barn, eating pears, reading magazines, etc etc etc. Nobody could be that stupid. It's like O.J. saying he had been in Nicole's back yard gardening when she was butchered.

[bob_m_ryan]

Angel -- I agree. If Lizzie had some kind of help, then it must have been a part of the plan that Lizzie had some tasks to do in the doing of the deed.

[Yooper]

Doesn't it make a lot more sense for a hired killer to do the job in the middle of the night while Abby and Andrew were asleep? Having both victims in the same place at the same time, in a relatively defenseless position, and having the cover of darkness are good reasons to do it that way. Waiting around for an hour and a half in broad daylight while avoiding the maid and hoping Morse doesn't return too soon all seem a bit far-fetched.

[Kat]

Actually Morse supposedly gave a similar answer when asked about the crime.

[FairhavenGuy]

It only works if someone like Morse were the hired assassin.

[Yooper]

There is really only one person whose needs were met by the murder scenario as it actually happened. Other household members out of the house or in a remote location within the house were a consideration for only one person. That is a person who could not leave the house without becoming suspicious. Anyone else would be suspicious by their presence, not their absence. That person could not kill Abby and Andrew in the middle of the night without having the rest of the household immediately aware of the activity, and they could not flee the scene.

[shakiboo]

Killing Andrew and Abbie during the night while they slept would only work IF the door to their room was left unlocked. It would be alot more difficult to get in their room to do the deed if they locked their bedroom door, and I'd almost bet they did. And if Andrew kept that big stick under his bed for protection, sounds like he'd been prepared for such an event.

[Allen]

To do the deed in the middle of the night they would also have to get through the triple locks on either the front or the back door. Then hope Andrew and Abby's bedroom door was not locked as shakiboo said. Might have been a bit less conspicous getting inside in the dark, but how would they get through the locks? What excuse would Lizzie have for how they could've possibly gotten in? At least during the day there was Bridget outside washing windows with the screendoor "unhooked".

[shakiboo]

To get inside the house at night all it would take is for some one to be inside to unlock the door, but they would still have to wait for the Bordens to come out of their room as it was proabably locked. Abbie had told a friend a few days before that her key was taken by THEM, so there was a missing key. John had showed up unexpectedly and stayed the night, Emma had been gone for awhile and wasn't due back. Lizzie was unexpectedly back, as she too had been gone, and was supposed to be away at that time. That leaves Bridget, who usually did the windows on thursdays. John said he heard Abbie tell her to do the windows at breakfast, before he left, Bridget said she wasn't told to do the windows till around 9 am after John had supposedly already left. What if John knew because Emma had told him the maid did window's outside on Thursdays and would be out for close to an hour. Some one said if your gonna hire some one to kill for you, make sure you have an air tight alibi, John and Emma sure did. Well, just a thought or two. Emma did hate Abbie, she made no bones about it.

[snokkums]

I think that if Lizzie and someone else hired someone to do the deed, then it would have been premeditated and therefore been thought out a lot more sensibly. If one wants to get away with murder, one would want to be as far away as possible from the scene and have a foolproof alibi. If it had been a murder for hire, Lizzie would have, for example, stayed in Marion or at least been far away from the house in sight of witnesses who could verify her whereabouts. No one going through the big decision to hire someone would have come up with the alibi that she was in and out of the house, ironing, moseying about the barn, eating pears, reading magazines, etc etc etc. Nobody could be that stupid. It's like O.J. saying he had been in Nicole's back yard gardening when she was butchered.

Thats the reason that I don't think she hired anyone to do the job; she was in the house when the murders took place. I mean why are you going to be in the house while the person you hired is killing your parents? I have agree with you too Angel, you would to be as far away from the scene so you would have a foolproof alibi, and Lizzie in the house at the time of the murders. Besides, why take the rap for murder if someone else did it? Even if you did hire a person, you get less time for conspiracy than murder. Or you tell the prosecutor that you didn't think the person would have taken you seriously about killing the parents.

[darthvader]

I once had the thought that Lizzie did hire somebody before she left for vacation. That person, the hired killer, got cold feet and Lizzie had to return to at least help out.

If Lizzie did not hire this person, perhaps it was blackmail of some sort. Is it possible Lizzie had something on somebody?

[snokkums]

My only problem about Lizzie hiring someone to do the deed, is this: why take the rap for murder? I mean, she never uttered a word about hiring someone. Why take the rap? Blackmail, maybe?

[Yooper]

The penalty for hiring someone to kill her parents would likely be as severe as for doing it herself. So, assuming Lizzie hired someone for the job, she had a choice. She could either point the finger at the person she hired, thereby removing any and all question of her involvement, or she could take the rap herself and possibly perpetuate the mystery. I can't imagine a hired killer keeping quiet about being hired!

[Allen]

The only other option is the person who helped her to do the killings was someone she cared about, and therefore she did not want to see them go to prison. But my opinion is still that Lizzie did the killings herself.

[Yooper]

What makes sense to me is for Abby and Andrew to have been killed together in some way rather than separated by an hour and a half. It also makes sense for Lizzie to be away from home on a visit while it occurred, if she hired someone. If Morse went home after lunch on the 4th and Lizzie went visiting, that would have left Bridget and the elder Bordens in the house for a period of time after August 4th. It makes more sense for the murders to have taken place then if someone had been hired. The fact that they took place when they did fits someone's requirements, probably not those of a hired killer.

[snokkums]

I have to agree with you. Why stay in the house when the hired assassin comes in. Even try to get the maid out too.

[Allen]

I dont know why but I'm having problems with double posts alot lately. Sorry.

[Allen]

I wasn't exactly sure which thread to post this in, but I will put it here and hope it fits in. Below Bridget is being asked who's usual task it was to take care of the cleaning duties in certain rooms.

Trial Testimony Bridget Sullivan page 196:

Q. Do you know who took charge of the room in the front part of the house?
A. Well, when Miss Emma was home she done it. When Mr. Morse was there and when Mrs. Borden had any of her friends there, I guess she done it or helped do it, that is, as far as I can remember.

Q. That is the front chamber you are talking about?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, do you know who took care of the rooms, belonging to the daughters or occupied by the daughters?
A. Themselves took care of them, as far as I know.

Q. And did that include sweeping and dusting as well as making the beds?
A. Yes, sir. I didn't have anything to do with the rooms.

Q. You had nothing to do with any bedroom?
A. No, sir.

So Emma wasn't at home, and John Morse had spent the night. Which meant Abby would be the one in the guest room freshening up the room the next morning. It doesn't appear Abby had much occassion to be in any room on the second floor but her own, unless it was to clean the guest room. Her bedroom door was kept locked making it hard for a killer to get to her if she was there. Thursday was also the day Bridget generally did windows, and she had no reason whatever to go upstairs into that guest room. Andrew usually had business which drew him away from the house for a time in the mornings. It seems to be Morse's custom to go visting around while he was in town. I think the killer had a pretty good idea that Thursday morning was going to be a good day to get Abby alone in that guest room. Even if it was only planned as far ahead as Wednesday night, after unsuccessful attempts at buying poison, I think John Morse's visit sealed Abby's fate. She tried unsuccessfully to get Bridget out of the house by telling her about the dress goods sale. When that didn't work, Lizzie also probably knew that it was Bridget's custom to go upstairs before the next meal to rest awhile. The supposed note then kept Bridget from wondering where Abby was or seeking her out until Andrew got home. The only thing Lizzie couldn't be sure of, in my opinion, was her chance to kill Andrew.

[Shelley]

The number of blows also does not suggest a professional or even amateur assassin. Two or three to the head would have been sufficient to do the deed. The quantity suggests fear, rage, or some might think an attempt to make the homicides look like the work of a crazed maniac. To me the number suggests something very personal the killer felt toward the victims.

[Kat]

Missy, do you mean - when you say "Her bedroom door was kept locked making it hard for a killer to get to her if she was there"- that if Abbie was in the guestroom working, that the killer could not approach her from Abbie's own bedroom because they could not get into Abbie's bedroom because it was kept locked? I was a tad confused at this part. Thanks!

Also, tho it probably does not affect what you posted, we know that Abbie did sometimes go to that guest room- for sewing projects, and she kept some of her own things in there.

[Allen]

"Her bedroom door was kept locked making it hard for a killer to get to her if she was there"

What I meant was if Abbie was in her bedroom with the door kept locked, the killer would have a hard time gaining access to her in this area. So it's doubtful they would plan to kill her there. Killing her in one of the rooms on the first floor was definitely out. Lizzie could've taken the key and killed them as they slept, but that would surely have pointed to an inside job. Who outside of the house knew where the key was kept? Or even that the door was kept locked? Abbie really didn't have much occassion to be on the second floor other than in her own room. She might have done some sewing, and kept things there, but a killer couldn't count on her being there at any given time.

Bridget testified that if Emma was not at home, it was Abbie who took care of the guestroom when John Morse spent the night. Bridget didn't have care of any rooms upstairs. Thursdays was also a usual day for washing windows. Andrew would more than likely be out on business, and it seems John Morse's custom to go visiting around. After a failed attempt at buying poison Lizzie might have decided on trying to catch Abbie alone in the guest room.

[Kat]

OK, I'm glad I asked. Why would Abbie lock herself in her bedroom?

And yes, your thought that the killer could not depend on Abbie being in the guest room on any given day is reasonable, I think. So you think Morse was there to draw Abbie to that room on Thursday? Or was he used for that in a last-minute scenario?

[Yooper]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Allen meant that for Abby to go to her room at all meant having to take the key from the sitting room and unlock it. She would then have the key with her and it is possible Abby might lock the door while she was in the room. The key would be unavailable, and an unlocked door could not be counted on by a hired killer planning a murder.

[Kat]

There's still the question as to why Missy thinks Abbie might lock herself in her bedroom- ... just because she had a key?

So is the Borden bedroom key always kept in the sitting room?

[Allen]

Edit...sorry I'm getting the double post thing.

[Allen]

For them to keep their bedroom door habitually locked, even while at home, to me suggests a fear of someone (thief?) getting into that room. Maybe it was the supposed "daylight robbery". Maybe they were afraid of someone more localized within the household. But it's my feeling that door was kept locked at all times even if they were inside it. If they were that concerned with someone getting into their bedroom, I don't believe they would've counted on their mere presence keeping them out. UNLESS they knew it was Lizzie. Even at that I think Abby probably still would have.

[Kat]

It never occurred to me that Abbie would lock herself in her room when she was in there.
Also, do we know that room was always locked and the key always kept on the mantle? What if there are more keys to the bedroom, or it was on the mantle during a period where there was only one key and Mr. and Mrs. Borden shared that one. But then if they found or bought another key, they might not need to keep it on the mantle.
A key on the mantle could be as simple as losing one key- then if the Mr. or Mrs. wanted to go to their shared room, they could check the mantle. If the key was gone, their spouse was up there or forgot to return the key to the mantle. If that happned often enough, they might decide it was too inconvenient and get another key made or make an effort to find a key they *lost.*
I really don't picture things so bad that Abby would lock herself in her own room. If they were that bad, that Abbie would resort to doing that, then she might have been better off at the farm that summer. They had lawyers in Swansea and could have worked up a will there if they meant to hide the fact.
It just sounds paranoid to me. My impression is that Abbie was not that paranoid. If she had been, she might have put up a struggle- and not be caught unawares with no defense wounds.

[Allen]

It appears she was paranoid enough to have gone to see Dr. Bowen Wednesday morning about being poisoned. It also appears the key was on the mantle the day of the murders because Andrew took it and went up to his room after coming home, then replaced it on the mantle when he came back down. Then later that day Dr. Bowen got that same key from the mantle so that Bridget might get a sheet from Abby's room. The question remains why was their door kept locked for the key to have been on the mantle in the first place? That also speaks of paranoia, in my opinion. To keep an inside door locked beyond two triple locked outside doors.

[Yooper]

I don't think it is too far fetched to imagine Abby locking her room while she occupied it. Someone had broken into it a year before the murders and taken some of her belongings. Maybe it didn't seem a secure place to her anymore.

Whether Abby would or wouldn't lock the door is probably less pertinent to the topic than whether an unlocked door could be relied upon by a hired assassin.

[Kat]

Well, I am ambivalent about Abbie deciding she had been purposely poisoned, so I have yet to decide that in my own mind. I don't think Dr. Bowen thought that and we rely on him for the story of her visit to him.

To be too precise, Lizzie said Andrew did not go upstairs that morning after returning home. But yes a key was needed to get a sheet.

I've not said the door was not kept locked that day- I'm asking what is the history of keeping the door locked- for how long had this been going on and whether Abbie would lock herself in her room. That goes to show whether she was paranoid or had an inkling her life was at risk, so yes it matters over and above whether an *assassin* could rely on whether the door was locked or not. It's a psychological profile of the inmates at the time of the murder- it goes deeper than what on outsider would know or not know- (*the assassin* mentioned).

As for two triple-locked outside doors- the side door was kept open in summer and only a hook kept the screen door closed- and *locked.* Anyone at anytime could break that hook or cut the screen. It would be very easy to do... it's no deterrent.
They kept the front door on the spring lock during the day, correct? That door faces on busy Second Street. That street had a lot of people who worked there and hung around there.
It was usually unlocked in the morning by Lizzie, only "triple-locked" at night.

It would be interesting to know how a multiple-family tenement on Second Street- like Mrs. Churchill's, kept their doors, windows and locks.

[snokkums]

I think that if Lizzie and someone else hired someone to do the deed, then it would have been premeditated and therefore been thought out a lot more sensibly. If one wants to get away with murder, one would want to be as far away as possible from the scene and have a foolproof alibi. If it had been a murder for hire, Lizzie would have, for example, stayed in Marion or at least been far away from the house in sight of witnesses who could verify her whereabouts. No one going through the big decision to hire someone would have come up with the alibi that she was in and out of the house, ironing, moseying about the barn, eating pears, reading magazines, etc etc etc. Nobody could be that stupid. It's like O.J. saying he had been in Nicole's back yard gardening when she was butchered.

I think you have a good point Angerl. If one were to hire an assasin, then you would want to be as far away from scene as possible. Or, maybe in her mind, she was away from the situation because she was in the barn.

[Allen]

Lizzie states she didn't think Andrew went upstairs after he got home. Bridget indicated that he had taken the key and gone up to his room. I guess it is a matter of who you personally believable as to which theory you decide to go with on that point. This is what I have found so far on the door being locked. I made a list for myself of all the locked doors in the house that day. The closet at the top of the steps was locked, Mr. and Mrs. Bordens bedroom door was locked, the front door was locked, Lizzie's bedroom door was locked, the door between Lizzie and the elder Borden's bedroom was locked, and so were many of the rooms in the attic. Why so many locked doors? This narrows the list of possible hiding places for an outside killer with no prior knowledge also.


Trial testimony Bridget Sullivan page 209:

Q. How long was it after Mrs. Borden came down was it before Mr. Borden came down?
A. Well, no more than five minutes, I don't think.

Q. What did he do when he came down stairs?
A. He came down stairs; he went into the sitting room and put a key on the shelf in the sitting room.

Q. What key was it he put on the shelf in the sitting room?
A. The key of his bedroom.

Q. Where did he ordinarily keep that?
A. In the sitting room.

Q. On the shelf.
A. Yes, sir.


Inquest Testimony Lizzie Borden page 57-58:

Q. Could you get to your room from the back hall?
A. No sir.

Q. From the back stairs?
A. No sir.

Q. Why not? What would hinder?
A. Fathers bedroom door was kept locked, and his door to my room was locked and hooked too I think, and I had no keys.

Q. That was the custom of the establishment?
A. It has always been so.

Q. It was so Wednesday, and so Thursday?
A. It was so Wednesday, but Thursday they broke the door open.

Q. That was after the crowd came; before the crowd came?
A. It was so.

Q. There was no access, except one had a key, and one would have to have two keys?
A. They would have to have two keys if they went up the back to get into my room. If they were in my room they would have to have a key to get into his room, and another to get to the back stairs.



Trial testimony of John Fleet page 504-505:

Q. From that room where did you go?
A. I went from that room back again downstairs in the sitting room, in the dining room, the kitchen, went up stairs, tried the door of Mrs. Borden--

Q. You mean now you went up the back stairs?
A. The back stairs, went up into the attics.

Q. You say you tried the door?
A. It was locked.

Q. How did you find it?
A. It was locked.

Q. The door was locked?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that is the room if Mr. and Mrs. Borden, I understand?
A. Yes, sir.

Page 504

Q. Then what?
A. Then I went up in the attic, in Bridget's room.

Q. Was that door locked?
A. No, sir.

Q. You are sure about that?
A. I am pretty sure it was not locked at that time.

Q. Well, are you sure?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then who went upstairs with you?
A. No one.

Q. Very well, go on.
A. I tried the other doors and found them locked.

Q. What door?
A. The doors west of the house --west rooms in the attic.

Q. How did you find that?
A. Locked.

Witness Statements page 2 from the notes of John Fleet:

Saw Lizzie two hours later, wanted to search her room. Dr. Bowen was in. She did not want to be bothered. Would make her sick. Told her I must search on account of the murders; otherwise should not be doing my duty. She then allowed the search to go on. Could not find anything in the room which would show blood, and found no instruments that had been used for murder. She said that it was impossible for anyone to get anything or throw anything in her room, because she always kept it locked.

[Kat]

Ah thank you for testimony.
Do you think that when Lizzie was in her room she kept her door locked?

We had talked about the fact that Andrew did host businessmen in his home, almost on a regular basis, and the possiblity arises that keeping interior doors locked would protect the inmates from incursion by these outsiders. Since there was a daylight robbery- as you mentioned- that might have strengthened the practice.

But still, we do see that the outside doors were not so formidabley locked, bolted, tripled bolted during the day, as was inferred.

[Harry]

Returning to the original topic, just how does one hire someone to kill somebody? Not that I want to do it mind you. At least not yet.

Lizzie's world was small. Killers for hire don't walk around with signs on their back nor advertise in the yellow pages. Her finding one on her own seems very doubtful to me.

Getting someone else to find one automatically involves another person to deal with before and after. Especially after. How would she even approach that person to help her? It would have to be someone she knew very well and trusted.

I was watching a TV show the other night where a woman wanted to hire someone to kill her husband. Granted it was a TV show but the person she approached went to the police and the supposed assassin she met with was an undercover police officer.

At the same time it is very hard to imagine Lizzie committing both murders by herself. A second person's involvement solves a lot of problems.

Ask yourself how would you go about hiring someone. A very risky adventure.

[Kat]

Thanks again, Missy, for supporting your position with testimony. That was good of you.

And Har- it begins to seem, when you put it that way, that the whole thing might have been someone else's idea... whether Lizzie did it or not.

There might have been collusion between the 2 girls, and someone overheard and offered some remedy. I can't picture one Miss going out and planning this thing alone...