Was reading some New York Times articles that covered Bridget's Inquest testimony, and encountered reportage of J.V. Morse having taken a car TO #4 Weybosset the a.m. of The Fourth.
His inquest testimony also indicates this-- but has been deemed a misprint (?).
Has this issue ever been independently resolved by a witness, or has it just ridden along-- so to speak-- depending on hearsay and what Morse says?
The Times, The Inquest & Morse
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kssunflower
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DJ
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That, of course, is dependent on a few variables. All accounts (including his own) have Morse leaving #92 at quarter till nine. Conceivably, he could have walked to the P.O. and posted his card by 9 a.m. Mrs. Emery told police (very close to the event, of course) that he arrived at 9:40.
That would give him 40 minutes of down time. Now, he could have had more; he could have had less. But, it certainly opens a window of opportunity for him to have returned to #92-- perhaps to say he had changed his mind about dinner, and was hurrying back to South Dartmouth after his visit at #4 Weybosset. Davis, after all, had "only given" Morse a limited amount of time before Morse was expected back for work.
(I have always wondered why Morse didn't come down on a Sunday, an "off day" for business, if he truly had no pressing business with Mr. Borden. Perhaps there was some pressing business at No. 92, about which will we never know.)
So, say Morse walks back to give his dinner regrets. He goes in by the side door (unseen by Bridget at the rear), looks about, goes up the front stairs-- and nasty surprise. Lizzie is already in her bedroom, with the door shut, pumped up on adrenaline and beginning her cleanup.
(Even worse-- Morse discovers Lizzie standing over Abby. He is drawn upstairs by the sound of the body falling?)
Morse takes off, then sits and sits at the Emerys', pondering how he will approach the matter. He's not going to stay at the scene of the crime, fearful that Lizzie may point the finger of blame at him. Or "ax" him to keep his mouth shut.
This would explain his odd behavior upon his later return. Sullivan is standing just inside the screen door, the police are already inside, and there are people gathering in front of the house, fixated on it. Morse goes off to eat his pear, wondering--
Is Andrew now dead, too?
Perhaps he lingered in the yard, hoping to see Andrew, or to discover somehow whether he was alive or dead before entering the house.
* * *
Anyway, if Morse has between 9:00 (possibly earlier) and 9:40 (possibly even later-- Morse isn't terribly specific about what time he arrives at the Emery's, at the Inquest: "It must've been before then (ten o'clock)"-- then he had plenty of time to return to #92, discover Abby's body (or Lizzie in the act), then hightail it outta there.
* * *
This would explain away his hyperbolically sturdy alibi on the streetcar back from the Emerys', as well as his odd behavior, lingering outside, wondering whether Sullivan is inside just because Abby is dead, or because Andrew, too, is dead.
* * *
With the Times article and the "misprint" both indicating that Morse went by car to the Emerys', one wonders whether he, in fact, did.
Is the solution to the puzzle that is Morse that he was the first to discover Abby's body?
That would give him 40 minutes of down time. Now, he could have had more; he could have had less. But, it certainly opens a window of opportunity for him to have returned to #92-- perhaps to say he had changed his mind about dinner, and was hurrying back to South Dartmouth after his visit at #4 Weybosset. Davis, after all, had "only given" Morse a limited amount of time before Morse was expected back for work.
(I have always wondered why Morse didn't come down on a Sunday, an "off day" for business, if he truly had no pressing business with Mr. Borden. Perhaps there was some pressing business at No. 92, about which will we never know.)
So, say Morse walks back to give his dinner regrets. He goes in by the side door (unseen by Bridget at the rear), looks about, goes up the front stairs-- and nasty surprise. Lizzie is already in her bedroom, with the door shut, pumped up on adrenaline and beginning her cleanup.
(Even worse-- Morse discovers Lizzie standing over Abby. He is drawn upstairs by the sound of the body falling?)
Morse takes off, then sits and sits at the Emerys', pondering how he will approach the matter. He's not going to stay at the scene of the crime, fearful that Lizzie may point the finger of blame at him. Or "ax" him to keep his mouth shut.
This would explain his odd behavior upon his later return. Sullivan is standing just inside the screen door, the police are already inside, and there are people gathering in front of the house, fixated on it. Morse goes off to eat his pear, wondering--
Is Andrew now dead, too?
Perhaps he lingered in the yard, hoping to see Andrew, or to discover somehow whether he was alive or dead before entering the house.
* * *
Anyway, if Morse has between 9:00 (possibly earlier) and 9:40 (possibly even later-- Morse isn't terribly specific about what time he arrives at the Emery's, at the Inquest: "It must've been before then (ten o'clock)"-- then he had plenty of time to return to #92, discover Abby's body (or Lizzie in the act), then hightail it outta there.
* * *
This would explain away his hyperbolically sturdy alibi on the streetcar back from the Emerys', as well as his odd behavior, lingering outside, wondering whether Sullivan is inside just because Abby is dead, or because Andrew, too, is dead.
* * *
With the Times article and the "misprint" both indicating that Morse went by car to the Emerys', one wonders whether he, in fact, did.
Is the solution to the puzzle that is Morse that he was the first to discover Abby's body?
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Kat
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Here is Morse's Timeline, from
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibr ... yMorse.htm
John Morse's Timeline
Source: Morse's testimony at the Preliminary Hearing held from Thursday, August 25 - Thursday, September 1, 1892
Preliminary Hearing in the Borden Case before Judge Blaisdell, August 25 through September 1, 1892. Fall River, MA: Fall River Historical Society.
Aug. 4, 1892, Thursday
6:00 a.m.
Got up in the morning "about 6, if I recollect right." (pg. 239).
6:20 a.m.
Came down stairs after "I made my toilet." (pg. 239).
Found no one down stairs. (pg. 240).
Did not see the servant "until about breakfast time." (pg. 240).
6:35 a.m.
Saw Mr. Borden "I do not think more than 15 minutes" after Morse got down. (pg. 240).
Mr. Borden came down to the sitting room where "I was opening the windows at the time."
Morse stayed in the sitting room -Mr. Borden was "backwards and forwards into the kitchen several times."
6:55 a.m.
"15 or 20 minutes after Mr. Borden came down," Mrs. Borden appeared.
7:05- 7:25 a.m.
Ate breakfast "I think about 7, it may have been a few minutes after." (Morse, Mrs. Borden, Mr. Borden). Did not see Lizzie.
The servant came "in and out." (pg. 240).
". . . we were there not more than 20 minutes." (pg. 242).
"While we were at breakfast", Bridget was given directions ". . . That she was
to wash the windows." (pg. 251).
7:25- 9:10 a.m. (?)
Sat in the sitting room after breakfast "probably an hour and 3/4." (pg. 242).
Had general conversation; we sat there ". . . in the sitting room." (pg. 240, 241).
Mrs. Borden "sat there a little while" with them in the sitting room after breakfast, before she began to do her work. (pg. 241).
"Mrs. Borden was backwards and forwards through the room; she was in and out."
". . . in the kitchen way, and saw her go in the front way, once."
Mrs. Borden "was dusting the room when I went in the sitting room, when I was there". . . "with a feather duster."
Morse did not know or hear Mrs. Borden go up stairs into his part of the house while he was there. (pg. 241).
8:30 a.m.
"About 15 or 20 minutes before I left the house" was when Morse saw Mrs. Borden go into the front hall. . . "Somewhere in the neighborhood of half past eight." (pg. 243).
"I think Mrs. Borden must be up then; she went into the front hall the last I saw of her at all." (pg. 241).
8:45 a.m.
Morse went away, "I think about quarter to nine." (pg. 241).
Morse "did not hear her (Lizzie) come down." (p. 241).
"I did not see her (Lizzie) from the time I came until the time of the tragedy." (pg. 238).
At the time Morse left: "I suppose Lizzie was up stairs, I did not see her." (p. 241).
"Mr. Borden came out through the kitchen into the back hall, and unhooked the door, and he hooked it, and the last words I heard him say was "John, come back to dinner with us." Mr. Borden remained inside. . . the lasttime Morse saw him. (pg. 241, 242, 243).
Bridget "was in the kitchen" when "I went out." (pg. 241).
When Morse left, "I looked at my watch," it was. . . "within a few minutes of it (8:45). (pg. 243).
"I came down to the post office". . . with a card to "I think William Vinnecum" of Swansea. (pg. 243).
". . . then went from there out to the north door, and went up (walked) Third St.; from there to Pleasant St., up Pleasant St. to Weybosset St., No. 4 to Daniel Emery's." . . . "a good mile," eastward, to see "a niece and a nephew from the west; my brother's children." (pg. 243, 244).
11:20 a.m.
Morse started to come away from there "I think about 20 minutes past eleven." (pg. 243).
Morse fixed the time by looking "at my watch about going back to dinner." (pg. 244).
The usual dinner hour at the Borden's was "About 12 o'clock."
Morse came back "on the car". . . that comes down Pleasant St.
"I got off the corner of Pleasant and Second Streets". . . went right up home. (pg. 244).
11:45 a.m.
Got home "about quarter to 12; I do not know exactly." Did not look at watch. (pg. 244, 245).
Noticed ". . . Nothing that attracted my attention. . . I did not notice anything about the place." (pg. 244).
". . . might have been a few men along, the same as generally. I did not see anything unusual about it." (pg. 253).
Came "Into the north small gate. . . I went around to the pear tree"-(didn't see anybody in the entry way by the screen door)-stayed out under the pear tree "two or three minutes." (pg. 253).
11:48 a.m.
First learned what happened "at the door," by way of "I think the servant girl." (pg. 244).
Mr. Sawyer was inside the house.
"The first man I saw in there was Dr. Bowen," and "I think two policemen." (pg. 244).
"I saw Mr. Borden (body) as I passed through. I went in there and saw him laying on the sofa. I went part way up the stairs. I did not go into the room at all, looked under the bed, and saw Mrs. Borden lying there." "They told me". . . she was up in that room. (pg. 245, 254).
Came down through the sitting room, "into the kitchen, from there into the dining room, from there back into the kitchen." (pg. 255).
When came back through sitting room did not look at Mr. Borden to examine anything. (pg. 255)
Could only tell the direction of one wound upon Mr. Borden, "The one that went down through, and cut through here, and cut through the nose, a long gash it appeared to be". . . "My impression of it". . . the cut was diagonal, from the forehead down and towards the nose. (pg. 257).
11:50 a.m.
"After I had been in the house 2 or 3 minutes, I saw her" (Lizzie) ". . . In the dining room, sitting on the lounge."(pg. 245).
There were some ladies with Lizzie. (pg. 255).
"I was so excited at that time I could not tell you who they were; I was nervous, to tell the truth about it."
Morse then went out of doors; saw "quite a number" of people then.
While out of doors "I don't know as (I did) anything." (pg. 255).
"I was out there 3 or 4 hours". . . "walking around in different parts"(of the yard). (pg. 256).
"I think when I came from the back of the house, when I got the pears, I think it (the cellar door) was open; I won't say sure, but I think it was."
"I think it (the barn) was open." (pg. 256).
Timeline of John Morse © 2001 Kat Koorey
© 2003-2008, PearTree Press. All rights reserved. Copyright Notice.
PearTree Press, P.O. Box 9585, Fall River, MA 02720. Page Updated: September 29, 2008
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibr ... yMorse.htm
John Morse's Timeline
Source: Morse's testimony at the Preliminary Hearing held from Thursday, August 25 - Thursday, September 1, 1892
Preliminary Hearing in the Borden Case before Judge Blaisdell, August 25 through September 1, 1892. Fall River, MA: Fall River Historical Society.
Aug. 4, 1892, Thursday
6:00 a.m.
Got up in the morning "about 6, if I recollect right." (pg. 239).
6:20 a.m.
Came down stairs after "I made my toilet." (pg. 239).
Found no one down stairs. (pg. 240).
Did not see the servant "until about breakfast time." (pg. 240).
6:35 a.m.
Saw Mr. Borden "I do not think more than 15 minutes" after Morse got down. (pg. 240).
Mr. Borden came down to the sitting room where "I was opening the windows at the time."
Morse stayed in the sitting room -Mr. Borden was "backwards and forwards into the kitchen several times."
6:55 a.m.
"15 or 20 minutes after Mr. Borden came down," Mrs. Borden appeared.
7:05- 7:25 a.m.
Ate breakfast "I think about 7, it may have been a few minutes after." (Morse, Mrs. Borden, Mr. Borden). Did not see Lizzie.
The servant came "in and out." (pg. 240).
". . . we were there not more than 20 minutes." (pg. 242).
"While we were at breakfast", Bridget was given directions ". . . That she was
to wash the windows." (pg. 251).
7:25- 9:10 a.m. (?)
Sat in the sitting room after breakfast "probably an hour and 3/4." (pg. 242).
Had general conversation; we sat there ". . . in the sitting room." (pg. 240, 241).
Mrs. Borden "sat there a little while" with them in the sitting room after breakfast, before she began to do her work. (pg. 241).
"Mrs. Borden was backwards and forwards through the room; she was in and out."
". . . in the kitchen way, and saw her go in the front way, once."
Mrs. Borden "was dusting the room when I went in the sitting room, when I was there". . . "with a feather duster."
Morse did not know or hear Mrs. Borden go up stairs into his part of the house while he was there. (pg. 241).
8:30 a.m.
"About 15 or 20 minutes before I left the house" was when Morse saw Mrs. Borden go into the front hall. . . "Somewhere in the neighborhood of half past eight." (pg. 243).
"I think Mrs. Borden must be up then; she went into the front hall the last I saw of her at all." (pg. 241).
8:45 a.m.
Morse went away, "I think about quarter to nine." (pg. 241).
Morse "did not hear her (Lizzie) come down." (p. 241).
"I did not see her (Lizzie) from the time I came until the time of the tragedy." (pg. 238).
At the time Morse left: "I suppose Lizzie was up stairs, I did not see her." (p. 241).
"Mr. Borden came out through the kitchen into the back hall, and unhooked the door, and he hooked it, and the last words I heard him say was "John, come back to dinner with us." Mr. Borden remained inside. . . the lasttime Morse saw him. (pg. 241, 242, 243).
Bridget "was in the kitchen" when "I went out." (pg. 241).
When Morse left, "I looked at my watch," it was. . . "within a few minutes of it (8:45). (pg. 243).
"I came down to the post office". . . with a card to "I think William Vinnecum" of Swansea. (pg. 243).
". . . then went from there out to the north door, and went up (walked) Third St.; from there to Pleasant St., up Pleasant St. to Weybosset St., No. 4 to Daniel Emery's." . . . "a good mile," eastward, to see "a niece and a nephew from the west; my brother's children." (pg. 243, 244).
11:20 a.m.
Morse started to come away from there "I think about 20 minutes past eleven." (pg. 243).
Morse fixed the time by looking "at my watch about going back to dinner." (pg. 244).
The usual dinner hour at the Borden's was "About 12 o'clock."
Morse came back "on the car". . . that comes down Pleasant St.
"I got off the corner of Pleasant and Second Streets". . . went right up home. (pg. 244).
11:45 a.m.
Got home "about quarter to 12; I do not know exactly." Did not look at watch. (pg. 244, 245).
Noticed ". . . Nothing that attracted my attention. . . I did not notice anything about the place." (pg. 244).
". . . might have been a few men along, the same as generally. I did not see anything unusual about it." (pg. 253).
Came "Into the north small gate. . . I went around to the pear tree"-(didn't see anybody in the entry way by the screen door)-stayed out under the pear tree "two or three minutes." (pg. 253).
11:48 a.m.
First learned what happened "at the door," by way of "I think the servant girl." (pg. 244).
Mr. Sawyer was inside the house.
"The first man I saw in there was Dr. Bowen," and "I think two policemen." (pg. 244).
"I saw Mr. Borden (body) as I passed through. I went in there and saw him laying on the sofa. I went part way up the stairs. I did not go into the room at all, looked under the bed, and saw Mrs. Borden lying there." "They told me". . . she was up in that room. (pg. 245, 254).
Came down through the sitting room, "into the kitchen, from there into the dining room, from there back into the kitchen." (pg. 255).
When came back through sitting room did not look at Mr. Borden to examine anything. (pg. 255)
Could only tell the direction of one wound upon Mr. Borden, "The one that went down through, and cut through here, and cut through the nose, a long gash it appeared to be". . . "My impression of it". . . the cut was diagonal, from the forehead down and towards the nose. (pg. 257).
11:50 a.m.
"After I had been in the house 2 or 3 minutes, I saw her" (Lizzie) ". . . In the dining room, sitting on the lounge."(pg. 245).
There were some ladies with Lizzie. (pg. 255).
"I was so excited at that time I could not tell you who they were; I was nervous, to tell the truth about it."
Morse then went out of doors; saw "quite a number" of people then.
While out of doors "I don't know as (I did) anything." (pg. 255).
"I was out there 3 or 4 hours". . . "walking around in different parts"(of the yard). (pg. 256).
"I think when I came from the back of the house, when I got the pears, I think it (the cellar door) was open; I won't say sure, but I think it was."
"I think it (the barn) was open." (pg. 256).
Timeline of John Morse © 2001 Kat Koorey
© 2003-2008, PearTree Press. All rights reserved. Copyright Notice.
PearTree Press, P.O. Box 9585, Fall River, MA 02720. Page Updated: September 29, 2008
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Kat
- Posts: 14770
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- Location: Central Florida
Notice:
"I came down to the post office". . . with a card to "I think William Vinnecum" of Swansea. (pg. 243).
---The *d* was left off the word "card" (as in "letter"] at the Inquest which made some assume Morse took a "car" to Weybosset.
Witness Statements:
...Leaving Mr. Borden at the door, went to the Post Office, wrote a letter from there, went as far as Third street on Bedford, from Third to Pleasant street, through Pleasant street to No. 4 Weybosset. Street, arriving there about 9.30 A. M. Saw relatives from the West. Remained at the house from 9.30 to 11:20 A. M., or thereabouts. Left, taking horse car, and stopped at the corner of Pleasant and Second streets, and got to Mr. Borden’s house about or near twelve o’clock. ...
Inquest
101-2
Q. Did he tell you where they lived?
A. Yes Sir, 4 Weybosset street.
Q. Did you tell him you were going?
A. Yes Sir. As I went out the door, he says “John, come back to dinner with us”. That is that last he spoke to me. I said I would. I came to the Post Office and got a car.
---the next question changed the subject - then later he talks about the horse car he returned on.
Trial
Page 138 / i159
Q. Where is Weybosset Street with respect to the Borden house?
A. It is just off Pleasant Street, and probably a mile or such a matter from Pleasant Street east.
Q. And that does not give us the distance from the Borden house. Will you give us the distance from the Borden house or about the distance?
A. Well, probably a mile and a quarter.
Q. Did you walk there or drive there?
A. I walked there.
. . . .
Q. You did return to the Borden house, did you, that morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did you come?
A. On the cars, horse cars.
Q. Horse or electric cars?
A. Horse cars.
Q. Did the horse cars go by the house on Weybosset Street?
A. It is just off a short distance from Pleasant Street where I went.
Q. That is to say, you can take the cars not far from where you were visiting?
A. Yes, probably within ten or fifteen rods.
Q. Did you have to wait for a car or did one come right along?
Page 139 / i160
A. One came right along.
Q. Where did you leave the car?
A. At the corner of Pleasant and Second Streets.
Q. That is not far from the Borden house, I believe?
A. Not a great ways.
Q. How did you go to the Borden house then?
A. Walked.
Q. Immediately?
A. Yes, sir.
"I came down to the post office". . . with a card to "I think William Vinnecum" of Swansea. (pg. 243).
---The *d* was left off the word "card" (as in "letter"] at the Inquest which made some assume Morse took a "car" to Weybosset.
Witness Statements:
...Leaving Mr. Borden at the door, went to the Post Office, wrote a letter from there, went as far as Third street on Bedford, from Third to Pleasant street, through Pleasant street to No. 4 Weybosset. Street, arriving there about 9.30 A. M. Saw relatives from the West. Remained at the house from 9.30 to 11:20 A. M., or thereabouts. Left, taking horse car, and stopped at the corner of Pleasant and Second streets, and got to Mr. Borden’s house about or near twelve o’clock. ...
Inquest
101-2
Q. Did he tell you where they lived?
A. Yes Sir, 4 Weybosset street.
Q. Did you tell him you were going?
A. Yes Sir. As I went out the door, he says “John, come back to dinner with us”. That is that last he spoke to me. I said I would. I came to the Post Office and got a car.
---the next question changed the subject - then later he talks about the horse car he returned on.
Trial
Page 138 / i159
Q. Where is Weybosset Street with respect to the Borden house?
A. It is just off Pleasant Street, and probably a mile or such a matter from Pleasant Street east.
Q. And that does not give us the distance from the Borden house. Will you give us the distance from the Borden house or about the distance?
A. Well, probably a mile and a quarter.
Q. Did you walk there or drive there?
A. I walked there.
. . . .
Q. You did return to the Borden house, did you, that morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did you come?
A. On the cars, horse cars.
Q. Horse or electric cars?
A. Horse cars.
Q. Did the horse cars go by the house on Weybosset Street?
A. It is just off a short distance from Pleasant Street where I went.
Q. That is to say, you can take the cars not far from where you were visiting?
A. Yes, probably within ten or fifteen rods.
Q. Did you have to wait for a car or did one come right along?
Page 139 / i160
A. One came right along.
Q. Where did you leave the car?
A. At the corner of Pleasant and Second Streets.
Q. That is not far from the Borden house, I believe?
A. Not a great ways.
Q. How did you go to the Borden house then?
A. Walked.
Q. Immediately?
A. Yes, sir.
-
DJ
- Posts: 794
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- Real Name:
Kat,
Thanks for posting all that, BUT my original question remains unanswered:
Do we have Morse's word, and Morse's word alone, that he walked there? Did a WITNESS ever verify that?
Of course, we have the "hallelujah" streetcar-alibi of his return.
******************************************
I find it very interesting, too, his use of semantics: He does not say he walked until the trial, almost 11 months ex post facto.
In the Witness Statements and the Inquest, he uses the term "went."
It's as if he were hedging his bets, in the days and weeks after the murders, that someone might have SEEN him on the car, going, if he took the car.
*******************************************
If you get right down to it, too, fudging the time a bit in his favor, per his departure from no. 92 and arrival at no. 4, he still could have had time to walk back to no. 92 in the interim, depending upon how long he spent at the P.O. EVEN if he did walk to #4.
********************************************
Already, at the outset, there are discrepancies in the reportage of his arrival time. Mrs. Emery says 9:40; Morse says 9:30. Ten minutes may not seem like much, but someone can walk pretty far in 10 minutes, if they're in a hurry. It does not take 30 minutes to walk a mile. Someone with a brisk gait can cover a mile in 15 minutes.
********************************************
Anyway, back to the point: Any witness?
Thanks for posting all that, BUT my original question remains unanswered:
Do we have Morse's word, and Morse's word alone, that he walked there? Did a WITNESS ever verify that?
Of course, we have the "hallelujah" streetcar-alibi of his return.
******************************************
I find it very interesting, too, his use of semantics: He does not say he walked until the trial, almost 11 months ex post facto.
In the Witness Statements and the Inquest, he uses the term "went."
It's as if he were hedging his bets, in the days and weeks after the murders, that someone might have SEEN him on the car, going, if he took the car.
*******************************************
If you get right down to it, too, fudging the time a bit in his favor, per his departure from no. 92 and arrival at no. 4, he still could have had time to walk back to no. 92 in the interim, depending upon how long he spent at the P.O. EVEN if he did walk to #4.
********************************************
Already, at the outset, there are discrepancies in the reportage of his arrival time. Mrs. Emery says 9:40; Morse says 9:30. Ten minutes may not seem like much, but someone can walk pretty far in 10 minutes, if they're in a hurry. It does not take 30 minutes to walk a mile. Someone with a brisk gait can cover a mile in 15 minutes.
********************************************
Anyway, back to the point: Any witness?
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Shelley
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- Real Name:
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- Contact:
I've never seen a report of anyone seeing Morse WALK up to Weybosset. I am not sure if the post office stop was affirmed by someone in the post office. Yes, I would go so far to agree that he just MAY have gone back to the house for something he forgot up in his room as a pretense and would not have startled Abby, then took a streetcar to Weybosset if you would believe he killed Abby. But I am satisfied that he had an ironclad alibi for Andrew's killing. And in the end- what on earth would be his motive for killing Abby? And what are the chances someone else would have murdered Andrew in the same way?
On Tuesday, we shall be timing the walk to Weybosset to pin down a time frame.
http://www.slide.com/r/t7Tdo_W65z9Ikdlf ... bedded_url
On Tuesday, we shall be timing the walk to Weybosset to pin down a time frame.
http://www.slide.com/r/t7Tdo_W65z9Ikdlf ... bedded_url
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DJ
- Posts: 794
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- Real Name:
Shelley,
I do not believe he killed Abby!
Please see my post under this topic, above, in which I theorize he may have come back (having changed his mind about dinner, or some such) and discovered Abby's body, or Lizzie in the act.
Then, how that would account for (what I consider) his odd behavior, upon his return.
I do not believe he killed Abby!
Please see my post under this topic, above, in which I theorize he may have come back (having changed his mind about dinner, or some such) and discovered Abby's body, or Lizzie in the act.
Then, how that would account for (what I consider) his odd behavior, upon his return.
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Shelley
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I did read the posts above. Well, he might have been a peculiar guy, but I have a hard time believing he could witness any scenarios like those, then just go off visiting and making chitchat with his relatives like nothing happened. And I don't think he would have been afraid Lizzie would fly at him with a hatchet. If he had decided to say nothing to protect Lizzie, he would have offered her a cool-headed option for an alibi quick. He could even have taken her with him to the Emery house. I don't think he would have left her there in a state of who knows what, jeopardizing others' lives, perhaps even doing herself an injury. And then, why go visiting or return for lunch. He could have headed home, claimed total ignorance of it all. "Saw them at breakfast, said goodbye- all seemed fine". etc. That he came back tells me he was as flummoxed by what he saw as anyone and as clueless.
There is nothing much to suggest John and Lizzie had warm relations- with Emma more so. Of course who knows how they really felt about each other , we have so little information about it. Would he protect her? Would he put his friend and brother in law in jeopardy of being murdered? If he had seen Lizzie attack Abby, I think the first thing he would have done would be hightail it off to get Andrew and tell him-not let him walk into a sure death. He was also not a small, old and weak man,- he could have subdued her. She was 5 ft. 3. Maybe he and Andrew could have gotten Lizzie committed to Taunton Asylum.
And if he had killed Abby, and I note you have not said this was the case, would he have done it in such a manner- left his niece and servant to find the body? Allow Andrew to come home and find her like that? And always- motive is all. And he had none.
Once I had a good friend whose sister blew her brains out with a shotgun. At the hospital, before the girl died, her mother said "Well, you finally did it didn't you"- and walked away. I went over to the house and the mother went out working in the garden, talking to herself, picking off deadheads. My friend, her sister, sat on the porch swinging and drinking iced tea. I thought this was peculiar behavior. Peculiar because this was not what I would have done. What is one man's peculiar is another man's everyday normal. I think John was eccentric in many ways-too bad he, and even Lizzie did not behave the way so many people thought they should have.
There is nothing much to suggest John and Lizzie had warm relations- with Emma more so. Of course who knows how they really felt about each other , we have so little information about it. Would he protect her? Would he put his friend and brother in law in jeopardy of being murdered? If he had seen Lizzie attack Abby, I think the first thing he would have done would be hightail it off to get Andrew and tell him-not let him walk into a sure death. He was also not a small, old and weak man,- he could have subdued her. She was 5 ft. 3. Maybe he and Andrew could have gotten Lizzie committed to Taunton Asylum.
And if he had killed Abby, and I note you have not said this was the case, would he have done it in such a manner- left his niece and servant to find the body? Allow Andrew to come home and find her like that? And always- motive is all. And he had none.
Once I had a good friend whose sister blew her brains out with a shotgun. At the hospital, before the girl died, her mother said "Well, you finally did it didn't you"- and walked away. I went over to the house and the mother went out working in the garden, talking to herself, picking off deadheads. My friend, her sister, sat on the porch swinging and drinking iced tea. I thought this was peculiar behavior. Peculiar because this was not what I would have done. What is one man's peculiar is another man's everyday normal. I think John was eccentric in many ways-too bad he, and even Lizzie did not behave the way so many people thought they should have.
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DJ
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Well, Morse couldn't exactly go back to Davis', having left a witness (Bridget) say he would be back for dinner. That would have made him look guilty.
If one thinks him peculiar (given the examples of how people can process a [tragic] death), why would it then have been peculiar for him to have left the scene? Personally, I don't think he was peculiar, nor do I think he looked particularly odd.
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If he DID return (I'm not saying for certain that he DID), and he just went up the stairs and saw all the blood (not necessarily Lizzie, who could have been in her bedroom by then), why stick around and be blamed? He could have thought, "What's done is done, and I'll let Andrew deal with this. Lizzie is his daughter."
He need not have concluded, right away, that Andrew was next, so (given this paradigm) it would not have been all THAT callous of him to have taken off, without warning him. He had no way of knowing that Andrew was next. That is our 20/20 hindsight. However, he could have come to that thought while sitting at the Emerys', after settling down a bit. (Mrs. Emery gives the impression that he just sort of sat there, all the while. He could well have been in shock, trying to figure out what he should do.)
Also, if Lizzie were out of her mind enough to take a hatchet to Abby, what's to say she wouldn't have been out of her mind enough to take a hatchet to her Uncle, with whom she is [apparently] not on all that good terms?
Quite frankly, if I walked into my sister-in-law's house and discovered her body as Abby's was, and I strongly believed my niece had committed the crime, I would GET OUT and summon the police, as I could not know what her state of mind might be-- she could be in a homicidal rage, and I could be next.
So, IF this scenario occurred, we could fault Morse for not contacting the authorities right away. Then again, Lizzie's blood may have indeed been thicker than Abby's to him, and he did not wish to turn her in. Indeed, this seems the case, as he certainly went to lengths to protect Lizzie, to create scenarios that would open the door to someone else having been the killer (the chloroform scenario, the unsolved murder in NYC scenario, the "cellar door was unlocked" scenario, etc.). He darn near cooked his own goose protecting Lizzie, so would it be THAT difficult to imagine that he didn't turn her in, IF he came back and found Abby's body?
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Why entertain such a scenario? Because, when he returns, he doesn't seem all that surprised that the murders have been committed.
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Again, this is merely a THEORY to explain what I consider beyond-peculiar actions by JVM, upon his return to #92, that a.m.
Obviously, these actions have concerned others as well-- those who would involve him in a murder plot. And, of course, the people in Fall River who were quick to believe that he was the killer, at the time.
Then, there are those who believe JVM was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that's that.
We'll probably never know, either way, but if something is POSSIBLE (his return), then it is fair to speculate that something could have occurred within that realm of possibility--
In order to attempt to explain odd behavior, beyond deeming someone merely "peculiar."
If one thinks him peculiar (given the examples of how people can process a [tragic] death), why would it then have been peculiar for him to have left the scene? Personally, I don't think he was peculiar, nor do I think he looked particularly odd.
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If he DID return (I'm not saying for certain that he DID), and he just went up the stairs and saw all the blood (not necessarily Lizzie, who could have been in her bedroom by then), why stick around and be blamed? He could have thought, "What's done is done, and I'll let Andrew deal with this. Lizzie is his daughter."
He need not have concluded, right away, that Andrew was next, so (given this paradigm) it would not have been all THAT callous of him to have taken off, without warning him. He had no way of knowing that Andrew was next. That is our 20/20 hindsight. However, he could have come to that thought while sitting at the Emerys', after settling down a bit. (Mrs. Emery gives the impression that he just sort of sat there, all the while. He could well have been in shock, trying to figure out what he should do.)
Also, if Lizzie were out of her mind enough to take a hatchet to Abby, what's to say she wouldn't have been out of her mind enough to take a hatchet to her Uncle, with whom she is [apparently] not on all that good terms?
Quite frankly, if I walked into my sister-in-law's house and discovered her body as Abby's was, and I strongly believed my niece had committed the crime, I would GET OUT and summon the police, as I could not know what her state of mind might be-- she could be in a homicidal rage, and I could be next.
So, IF this scenario occurred, we could fault Morse for not contacting the authorities right away. Then again, Lizzie's blood may have indeed been thicker than Abby's to him, and he did not wish to turn her in. Indeed, this seems the case, as he certainly went to lengths to protect Lizzie, to create scenarios that would open the door to someone else having been the killer (the chloroform scenario, the unsolved murder in NYC scenario, the "cellar door was unlocked" scenario, etc.). He darn near cooked his own goose protecting Lizzie, so would it be THAT difficult to imagine that he didn't turn her in, IF he came back and found Abby's body?
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Why entertain such a scenario? Because, when he returns, he doesn't seem all that surprised that the murders have been committed.
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Again, this is merely a THEORY to explain what I consider beyond-peculiar actions by JVM, upon his return to #92, that a.m.
Obviously, these actions have concerned others as well-- those who would involve him in a murder plot. And, of course, the people in Fall River who were quick to believe that he was the killer, at the time.
Then, there are those who believe JVM was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that's that.
We'll probably never know, either way, but if something is POSSIBLE (his return), then it is fair to speculate that something could have occurred within that realm of possibility--
In order to attempt to explain odd behavior, beyond deeming someone merely "peculiar."
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Shelley
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I think John would not have simply walked into the house. It wasn't as if it was his sister's house. He would have knocked on the door. If he had returned at 9 after going to the post office, he would have smacked into Andrew leaving or going up Second St.
If he had not received an answer to his knock at the door, I think the next thing he might have done was walk around the perimeter of the house to see if someone were under the pergola, or doing chores in the back yard, or even in the barn. Then, he would have smacked into Bridget Sullivan who would give his message to Abby. I am not ancient but I do recall that people, even in the 50's did not barge into houses unless it was immediate family.
I note that Andrew accompanied John to the door that morning at parting- John was not Abby's family, so I think John would have observed the protocol of the time., which was even more formal than the 1950's. Shoot, I still can't bring myself to go into someone's fridge, even when encouraged to do so.
If he had not received an answer to his knock at the door, I think the next thing he might have done was walk around the perimeter of the house to see if someone were under the pergola, or doing chores in the back yard, or even in the barn. Then, he would have smacked into Bridget Sullivan who would give his message to Abby. I am not ancient but I do recall that people, even in the 50's did not barge into houses unless it was immediate family.
I note that Andrew accompanied John to the door that morning at parting- John was not Abby's family, so I think John would have observed the protocol of the time., which was even more formal than the 1950's. Shoot, I still can't bring myself to go into someone's fridge, even when encouraged to do so.
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DJ
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I can see him walking in the screen door, going, "Anyone home? Hello? Hello?" Then, with no response, walking through the kitchen and the sitting room to the front of the house, then proceeding on--
Also, if he returned around 9:20, he would have missed Andrew and could well have discovered Abby's body. If he left #92 around 9:20, pumped up on adrenaline by what he had seen, he could have conceivably made it, on foot, to #4 Weybosset by at least 9:45. Or, he could have hopped a car.
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I am NOT saying this DID happen. I'm saying it still COULD have happened. It would go a long way toward explaining Morse's lack of surprise, his pause, upon his return, later that morning.
Of course, there's always the "He was just peculiar" theory, but Mr. Borden trusted him in business matters and seemed to enjoy his company, so how truly peculiar could Morse have been?
Also, if he returned around 9:20, he would have missed Andrew and could well have discovered Abby's body. If he left #92 around 9:20, pumped up on adrenaline by what he had seen, he could have conceivably made it, on foot, to #4 Weybosset by at least 9:45. Or, he could have hopped a car.
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I am NOT saying this DID happen. I'm saying it still COULD have happened. It would go a long way toward explaining Morse's lack of surprise, his pause, upon his return, later that morning.
Of course, there's always the "He was just peculiar" theory, but Mr. Borden trusted him in business matters and seemed to enjoy his company, so how truly peculiar could Morse have been?
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Kat
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This is an interesting discussion. I do think it is possible that Morse had time to return to the house before going on to Weybosset, but have not speculated further before on what he might do when he got there. I still don't know, but exploring different options is interesting. Thanks!
As an aside, DJ, Bridget says she did not know if Morse was returning to dinner.
Prelim
Bridget
pg 8
Q. Did Mr. Borden go out when Mr. Morse did?
A. No Sir.
Q. He went to the door?
A. Yes Sir, with him.
Q. Did you hear him say anything to Mr. Morse?
A. I heard him ask him to come to dinner.
Q. What did Mr. Morse say?
A. I do not know.
The Emery's thought Morse was going to New Bedford.
Plus tho- they were his family- there might be a lie in there somewhere for Morse- in his favor, I mean- it's possible.
To make it more confusing, here are the Witness Statements from Morse and Mrs. Emery, pg 29:
Fall River, August 4, 1892.
John V. Morse stated to me that be left the Borden homestead on Second street at about 8.50 A. M. and went to see a nephew and niece whom he had never seen before, so he said, who were stopping at Mr. Emery’s at No. 4 Weybosset street.
Mr. Morse said he went there, and remained until 11.30 arriving there at about 9.30. Leaving No. 4 Weybosset at 11.30, he said he took a street car going directly back to the Borden home, arriving there about 11.50, when he found that Mr and Mrs. Borden had been murdered; that was the first he knew of it. He told Reporter Porter of the Daily Globe that the first he knew of it was when he was telephoned for.
To prove the truth or falsity of the above statement, I went to the home of Mr. Emery at No. 4 Weybosst street. Mrs. Emery said Mr. Morse did come there at about 9.40, and left there at 11.20, or thereabouts; that he did meet his nephew and niece. She also said Mr. Morse had not been to their house before in several years. She asked him to remain to dinner, but he declined, saying something about going to New Bedford, to which place they understood be was going after leaving the house. He left by the front door, but she does not know whether or not he took a street car.
He did not see his nephew that day. The reason he had not been to that house before is because they had moved there since the last time they saw Morse. And the supposed *phone call* has always been debated- and seems a mystery.
As an aside, DJ, Bridget says she did not know if Morse was returning to dinner.
Prelim
Bridget
pg 8
Q. Did Mr. Borden go out when Mr. Morse did?
A. No Sir.
Q. He went to the door?
A. Yes Sir, with him.
Q. Did you hear him say anything to Mr. Morse?
A. I heard him ask him to come to dinner.
Q. What did Mr. Morse say?
A. I do not know.
The Emery's thought Morse was going to New Bedford.
Plus tho- they were his family- there might be a lie in there somewhere for Morse- in his favor, I mean- it's possible.
To make it more confusing, here are the Witness Statements from Morse and Mrs. Emery, pg 29:
Fall River, August 4, 1892.
John V. Morse stated to me that be left the Borden homestead on Second street at about 8.50 A. M. and went to see a nephew and niece whom he had never seen before, so he said, who were stopping at Mr. Emery’s at No. 4 Weybosset street.
Mr. Morse said he went there, and remained until 11.30 arriving there at about 9.30. Leaving No. 4 Weybosset at 11.30, he said he took a street car going directly back to the Borden home, arriving there about 11.50, when he found that Mr and Mrs. Borden had been murdered; that was the first he knew of it. He told Reporter Porter of the Daily Globe that the first he knew of it was when he was telephoned for.
To prove the truth or falsity of the above statement, I went to the home of Mr. Emery at No. 4 Weybosst street. Mrs. Emery said Mr. Morse did come there at about 9.40, and left there at 11.20, or thereabouts; that he did meet his nephew and niece. She also said Mr. Morse had not been to their house before in several years. She asked him to remain to dinner, but he declined, saying something about going to New Bedford, to which place they understood be was going after leaving the house. He left by the front door, but she does not know whether or not he took a street car.
He did not see his nephew that day. The reason he had not been to that house before is because they had moved there since the last time they saw Morse. And the supposed *phone call* has always been debated- and seems a mystery.
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Angel
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I think that Morse DID get a phone call at his relative's house before he left telling him what had happened. That's why, on the way home, he took the time to make sure he noticed the priests, the number of the car, etc. to prove his whereabouts so he wouldn't be implicated in any way. That's also why I believe he took his time entering the house because he wanted to prepare himself for what he might have to deal with.
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DJ
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Think about it: If Mrs. Emery says that Morse leaves with the impression that he is going back to Davis', right away--and she is NOT lying (why would she-- it has nothing to do with his alibi)--then how could there have been a phone call re the murders? She would have answered HER phone, not Morse. She would have known what the call was about, IF there had been a call.
Morse would not be taking off to New Bedford if he had just learned of the murders. Makes no sense.
Moreover, if he HAD received a phone call, why worry about the trolley ride alibi? A phone call would have been an EXCELLENT alibi for him-- he was a mile away-- how could he have murdered Mr. Borden and gotten there in time to receive the phone call?
There's no sensible reason for him to have received a phone call, then DENIED it, which he does, particularly when that phone call would have proved his whereabouts at the Emerys' beyond a shadow of a doubt.
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Then, we come to the question-- who placed the call? From where?
Not Lizzie. Bridget never mentions that Miss Lizzie asked that Dr. Bowen, or anyone else, phone Morse, so who else would have known where he was?
Doesn't Dr. Bowen send the telegraph to Emma at 11:30?
Morse may have left the Emerys' around 11.20. Who in the world would have gotten to a phone and called him by then?
Again, not Lizzie.
Again, Bridget never says she was told to tell someone to phone Morse.
Morse would not be taking off to New Bedford if he had just learned of the murders. Makes no sense.
Moreover, if he HAD received a phone call, why worry about the trolley ride alibi? A phone call would have been an EXCELLENT alibi for him-- he was a mile away-- how could he have murdered Mr. Borden and gotten there in time to receive the phone call?
There's no sensible reason for him to have received a phone call, then DENIED it, which he does, particularly when that phone call would have proved his whereabouts at the Emerys' beyond a shadow of a doubt.
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Then, we come to the question-- who placed the call? From where?
Not Lizzie. Bridget never mentions that Miss Lizzie asked that Dr. Bowen, or anyone else, phone Morse, so who else would have known where he was?
Doesn't Dr. Bowen send the telegraph to Emma at 11:30?
Morse may have left the Emerys' around 11.20. Who in the world would have gotten to a phone and called him by then?
Again, not Lizzie.
Again, Bridget never says she was told to tell someone to phone Morse.
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Kat
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Good questions, but if Mrs. Emery is lying in favor of Morse, then some of these questions would remain unanswered. There may be more information that was not collected or written down or maybe the defense had more in-depth statements from Morse and Mrs. Emery that we'll never see? It's one of those things where the gut says we don't know enough here- why don't we have more answers? Something's missing. You know the feeling. A note that no one will admit to... a phone call that supposedly never happened...
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DJ
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Also, too, I was thinking that Knowlton dropped the ball, again, with Mrs. Emery.
Personally, I don't believe she lied. Rather, I get the impression that she was a terse person who did not wish to be involved in this case one iota more than she had to be, and her tone and terseness almost jump off the page of the Witness Statement. I'm heavily inclined to believe there was no phone call. She doesn't seem the type to cover for Morse; however, she could have been one heckuvan actress.
Still and all, she's the only person who could corroborate the time at which Morse arrived at her house (assuming he was even there, if she were in to telling a gollywhopper). The prosecution should have grilled her. If things were on the up and up with her-- as I believe-- at least it would be more on the record.
She was an important witness, as was Elizabeth Johnston to my mind, and the prosecution failed to get them on the record.
Personally, I don't believe she lied. Rather, I get the impression that she was a terse person who did not wish to be involved in this case one iota more than she had to be, and her tone and terseness almost jump off the page of the Witness Statement. I'm heavily inclined to believe there was no phone call. She doesn't seem the type to cover for Morse; however, she could have been one heckuvan actress.
Still and all, she's the only person who could corroborate the time at which Morse arrived at her house (assuming he was even there, if she were in to telling a gollywhopper). The prosecution should have grilled her. If things were on the up and up with her-- as I believe-- at least it would be more on the record.
She was an important witness, as was Elizabeth Johnston to my mind, and the prosecution failed to get them on the record.