If You Could Ask Lizzie One Question on August 4

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat May 12, 2012 2:18 pm

If you could ask Lizzie one question on August 4, 1892 after both bodies had been found, what would it be?

One thing is drivin' me nutz. I would ask her since she claimed to eat 3 pears in the bahn, where are the cores???

DJ · Post by DJ » Sat May 12, 2012 2:56 pm

My Q would be for Bridget-- did Lizzie come downstairs earlier that a.m. in the same dress she was wearing when the police arrived? If the answer were no, my Q to LAB would be: "Then, where is the dress you first wore this a.m.?"

Or, simply put, to LAB: "Have you changed clothes this a.m.?"

Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but it's rather remarkable that the police didn't pin down Bridget on this. It just seems so elementary to the point of suspecting Lizzie.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun May 13, 2012 6:20 am

My question would to Lizzie "Why did you do it?" Or better yet "Let's be honest Lizzie, I know you did, I just want to know why."
My question to Bridget, "Why are you covering for lizzie? Is she blackmailing you"

For Emma, "Why did you stand by Lizzie when you know she did this crime? Were you in on the murder plot? I get it -- you helped plann and LIzzie did the deed."

I am having alot of fun with this question! LOL!

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun May 13, 2012 12:03 pm

I would be very tempted to ask Lizzie if she was aware that the dead woman in the guest room was a stand-in hired by Andrew, while the real Abby is currently having a conversation with the police.

Albanyguy · Post by **Albanyguy** » Sun May 13, 2012 10:52 pm

I would ask her "Do you realize that you just destroyed three lives...his, hers and yours?"

xyjw · Post by **xyjw** » Wed May 16, 2012 11:16 am

What were you and Dr. Bowen burning in the stove?

Why did you have to fire up the stove to iron hankies on this particular morning?

Wouldn't it have made more sense to heat flat irons on a morning when the stove was started and used for breakfast, rather than on a morning when a cold breakfast was served?

Are we allowed only one question?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed May 16, 2012 12:27 pm

Well, "one question" was the name of this thread. But let's just not tell...

xyjw, I don't think it was an entirely cold breakfast. Bridget made Johnny Cake/s. And there was coffee, but that didn't go in the oven. If Bridget meant like an 8" x 8" pan of Johnny Cake, that would go in the oven. But if she meant pancakes, that would go on the stove top. Oh - first thing in the morning "that" morning, Bridget went down to the cellar to get her wood or coal, or wood and coal, to start up the stove.

I never thought anything sinister behind Lizzie and the stove that morning. But you got me thinking. Probably everything Lizzie did that morning had some meaning to it. Does anyone think Lizzie knew ahead of time there would be that stuff to burn? I thought the cylinder-shaped thing was a bunch of papers Andrew brought home - his will maybe. I supposed it couldn't have been the rest of the handle of the broken hatchet? That would have taken a long time to burn, wouldn't it, and someone would probably really see that?

I think Lizzie knew Andrew was doing something that day - that's why it happened that day.

What in the heck did Dr. Bowen rip up and burn in the stove? I think it was Officer Harrington that said he saw the word "Emma" written on a piece of it. Dr. Bowen said at the time that it was nothing - I think he said it was something about his daughter going somewhere. His daughter's name was Florence? Totally strange that the good doctor took that particular day and time to not just burn that, but rip it up first then burn it...

xyjw · Post by **xyjw** » Thu May 17, 2012 1:10 pm

That image of Miss Lizzie Borden standing at the stove with married neighbor Dr. Bowen dropping papers into the stove to be burned at the scene of a murder that took place minutes ago, has always troubled me. It was 1892 and that is a little too intimate a scene for just after a murder. They should have been out front waiting to direct more police officers inside, or Lizzie should have been across the street with Mrs. Bowen, or something!

Albanyguy · Post by **Albanyguy** » Thu May 17, 2012 6:45 pm

Lizzie and Dr. Bowen weren't standing at the stove burning papers together. When Bowen was spotted holding those scraps of paper which he then dropped into the stove, Lizzie was upstairs in her bedroom where she had been resting for quite a while, attended by Alice Russell. Mrs. Bowen had been there, but I think she had gone home by that point. While up in her room, Lizzie had talked with the police, recieved a visit from her pastor, Dr. Buck and had a private talk with Bowen. This was probably close to two hours after Lizzie had "discovered" Andrew's body.

This may have been when she told him that she had left a piece of paper downstairs and asked him to go down, find it and get rid of it for her. I don't think that there was any kind of romantic or sexual hanky-panky going on between them or that they conspired together to cover up her guilt. They were simply old friends who had known each other for years and I think the idea that she was the killer never entered his mind. Lizzie was probably able to get him to burn the note by playing on his sympathies, telling him that the contents of the note were entirely innocent but could be misconstrued and used against her if it fell ito the hands of the police. I know that sounds kind of far-fetched, but it may not have been too hard for her to play him like a cheap fiddle. From his statements, he sounds kind of pompous and not terribly bright.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Thu May 17, 2012 9:42 pm

Albanyguy wrote:I would ask her "Do you realize that you just destroyed three lives...his, hers and yours?"

I like that question to her. She not only destroyed her father and stepmothers lives, but hers and Emmas.I don't think I would want to be the sister of an accused murderer. Must have been hard for Emma, Your sister is an accused murderer. I don't think I'd want to assoicate with Lizzie, even if I was her sister.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri May 18, 2012 4:45 pm

The question I would most like to ask her is, how did she keep herself from getting spattered with blood?

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Fri May 18, 2012 7:05 pm

Lizzie was probably able to get him to burn the note by playing on his sympathies, telling him that the contents of the note were entirely innocent but could be misconstrued and used against her if it fell ito the hands of the police.

Maybe Lizzie wrote the infamous missing "note" and signed it in Abby's name and was going to leave it lying in the kitchen for an aliby, then realized they could do a handwriting comparison and find out that it is in Lizzie's handwriting , and Abby never wrote a note, and asked Bowen to burn it! Unlikely but a thought.

One question only to ask Lizzie?
Did you plan the murders after coming home from Alice's house that night, or wing it in the morning, and How did you get so lucky not to get caught?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri May 18, 2012 8:10 pm

I would also like to ask her," How do you live with yourself knowing you did this.

stargazer · Post by **stargazer** » Fri May 18, 2012 11:01 pm

why didn't you get the hell out of that house when you found your father dead ?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri May 18, 2012 11:23 pm

YES:

Boy, there are so many questions I could ask on August 4th.

But then, knowing how emotional she was I would wait for another day.

Then there would be countless questions that I would like to ask, for example:

Which do you like best, Strawberry or Maple walnut ice-cream . Or are you a Vanilla type of girl?

Have you ever been to Interlachen or ridden one of Spencer Borden's Arabians?

What was the best theatre play you ever attended.?

Do you think Benjamin Harrison's a good President?

Did you ever go fishing in Crab Pond when you were a little girl?

Are you free tonight? Perhaps we could go to Wilbur's for dinner.....what do you say?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun May 20, 2012 6:06 am

Another question I'd ask would be, "How did you decide which one to kill first? Or were you just so blind with rage you just went to hacking?"

RichardX · Post by **RichardX** » Mon May 21, 2012 3:49 pm

What you might want to ask and what she would be willing to answer are likely very different. LOL. I think questioning her about the note she claimed Abby received would be the most fruitful topic. It's one of the few outright lies Lizzie told. That would make her vulnerable to questioning about it. Prove that the note was made up and there in only one reasonable conclusion - that Lizzie was guilty. There would only be a limited number of people who would send Abby such a note. And it seems beyond belief that Lizzie would have no clue or curiosity about who sent it unless it's a fabrication.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun May 27, 2012 6:40 am

I think you're right. What she is willing answer might be different than what you want to ask her. She might not want to answer anything. She might just keep saying she is innocent, so why do you keep asking me question about murders I didn'tcommit. LOL!

SweetieDee · Post by **SweetieDee** » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:59 pm

How much did it cost you to buy Bridget's promise of silence?

How willing was Bridget for the promise of hope? For the promise of a brighter future?

How will it feel knowing that Bridget didn't trust you to not blame her...so she let slip little details that slightly implicate you in order to protect herself?

LouManDude · Post by **LouManDude** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:19 pm

Personally, I believe the most obvious question that was not asked was, "Why didn't you have Bridget call for the police immediately, instead of telling her to go get Dr. Bowen and Miss Russell"?

Of course she may have answered.. I was in shock! or... I thought Dr. Bowen could save him... etc. However, I think Lizzie was setting the stage to cover her tracks. She told Dr. Bowen of her womanly cycle to avoid having to answer additional questions or closer inspection of the hip bath with bloody water in the basement. Such a personal female issue would not have been followed up by police, especially when corroborated by a medical professional. And since Dr. Bowen wasn't home at the time, what was Miss Russell to do?

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:20 pm

What have you done minute by minute this morning?

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:59 am

similar to the response above, the only real question to ask is: what were you really doing between 9 and 11?

NESpinster · Post by **NESpinster** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:37 am

Allen wrote:The question I would most like to ask her is, how did she keep herself from getting spattered with blood?

Good one!!! I think that's something everyone would love to know!

I think I'd ask her point-blank if her father ever molested her. I don't know that he did, but all that rage came from somewhere, and I'm not sure it was entirely about the house/money/property, altho that probably played a role too. Asking a question that bluntly (esp at a time when people did not speak of such things!!), I wonder if Silent Lizzie might inadvertently have blurted out the truth??

I would have loved to see her reaction anyway!

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:12 pm

No point in asking her anything because she wouldn't tell the truth anyway. I would like to know about the incest, however. Some of the people on the forum get all upset and defend Lizzie and Andrew to the hilt about that because they don't want to think there was such goings on in the family. They want to paint Lizzie as this sweet little spinster who couldn't possibly be involved in such a dysfunctional family. The fact is, however, that something major was happening in the family that was horrendous, or there wouldn't have been such a violent reaction of murder. There's just no getting around that.

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:03 pm

The incest theory is interesting...I was just thinking that it may have been hard for Andrew since Emma slept in the bedroom off of Lizzie's and she could enter Lizzies room at anytime if she heard something. And before Lizzie went to Europe SHE slept in the little room that Andrew would have to enter through EMMA's room. Emma WAS out of town at the time of the murders, though. But then Uncle John was in the guest room. I wonder if something could have happened during the time Emma left and the time Uncle John showed up that sent Lizzie over the edge? But her rage seemed to be directed at Abby and not necessarily at Andrew.

DJ · Post by DJ » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:35 pm

It's paramount to remember that Emma AND Lizzie both left the house more that one week before the murders.

How very, very, VERY unusual for both of the "I Spy" daughters to be vacating at the same time!

This is why I theorize that Andrew had decided to do something for Abby, financially speaking, and LIzzie & Emma were NOT going to receive their "quid pro quo" this time.

Put bluntly-- there was no reason for them to hang so close to the house anymore. The jig was up-- they had been trumped. They had overplayed their hand with The Daylight Robbery and The Ferry Street Fiasco.

Miss Lizzie was evidently having none of it. She was supposed to meet up with her friends at the beach, in Marion, but got as far as New Bedford, where she stopped over in a rooming house, purchased a few dress patterns, and managed to convey to an old friend that she belived she was going to be cut out of her Father's will! (See Police Witness reports.)

So, Miss Lizzie returns, allegedly to call the Sunday school roll-- that Sunday. (Her testimony.)

Why is she back almost one week in advance of that, then?

So, Lizzie doesn't even make it to Marion. She comes home to perform a task that could have been easily delegated to someone else, before she left.

*************************************************

On one of those paranormal-investigation shows-- this one with two guys-- I can't remember the title, but it's fairly new. Either on Travel or Syfy, I think-- the investigators recorded some EVPs at #92, one of which states clearly, "But I'm a good daughter!" The New England accent came through, too. Chilling! Does anyone recall the show's title?

patsy · Post by **patsy** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:32 pm

I'd ask if while she was up in the barn loft eating pears, did she see anything that she could describe that would show she was really there. Something a neighbor did, or a sound she may have heard, or even the man rumored to have been stealing pears and had supposedly jumped the fence. Did she see Hyman Lubinsky's wagon go by since he said he saw a woman come from the back.

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:21 pm

What were your father and Uncle John discussing last night?

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:37 pm

That's very good, DJ.

DJ · Post by DJ » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:08 pm

Well, Angel, it's evident that Lizzie left with some gnawing issue weighing over her.
It would seem that the same issue was weighing over, Emma, too. She cleaned out her closet and drawers before she left, giving the appearance that she didn't plan to return soon-- if ever.

Anyway, here is Lizzie, living in this household laden with ill feelings, and she doesn't even make it to the beach to have a good time with her friends?

Instead, she returns to call a Sunday School roll, almost one week beforehand?

If she truly felt she had to do that, she could have come in on Saturday and returned to the beach after church.

One document that I believe could bust this case wide open, if it still exists, is Lizzie's letter to Lizzie Johnston, who was vacationing at Marion.

We know the letter disturbed Miss Johnston to the extent that she showed it to attorney Andrew Jennings.

A while back, Allen posted a contemporary article-- I believe from the NY Times-- that some of the "Marion Vacationers," who had seen the letter, had let it leak that Lizzie had written that she had a very sharp ax with which to cut firewood when she arrived, and that she would be taking care of that chore.

If that's true, I don't wonder that, if such a letter had been presented at the Inquest, Lizzie might have broken down. Can you imagine that testimony, coupled with Alice Russell's, at the Inquest?

I think Lizzie would have swung.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:20 am

Where did you find out that Emma had cleared all her stuff out? That's the first time I heard that.

DJ · Post by DJ » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:00 pm

When the police search her room, all they discover (aside from furnishings) is a small "bundle."

Now, I don't know what was in the clothes press, precisely. The police really, really, really should have done a complete inventory, especially since Lizzie was holding on to the key, and since Emma and Lizzie later claimed they shared it with Mrs. Borden, as if they all were palsy-walsy.

The police should have pulled out every garment and sorted per wearer. On such things are murder cases lost.

Victorian propriety trumps forensics.

The fact that Lizzie was holding on to the key should have been a tip-off.

Anyway, to answer your question, judging from the reports of the search of Emma's room, it appears to have been pretty well cleared out.

NESpinster · Post by **NESpinster** » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:37 am

DJ, regarding your question about the paranormal show--wow!

I know several "ghost-hunting" shows have been filmed about Lizzie and I wish I could help you out, I have to admit I enjoy watching those shows too! If it was a Syfy show, that would probably be "Ghost Hunters", with Jason Hawes and Grant Wilson (Wilson sadly has now left the show

). If you saw it on the Travel Channel, it was probably "Ghost Adventures", with Zac Bagans, Nick Groff, and Aaron Goodman. (I hope I haven't, err, murdered their names, lol.)

It's clear too that I have a lot more homework to do! I either never heard (or forgot

) about the letter Lizzie wrote to her friend Lizzie Johnston. If Miss Johnston was indeed sufficiently disturbed to show it to Andrew Jennings, it must have been dynamite!! The report that it had something to do with a "very sharp ax" just sent cold chills down my spine!!! I agree that Emma too sensed (or knew?) that their not-so-happy home was about to implode, altho I don't think Emma was personally involved. That doesn't mean she didn't suspect that things were about to go from bad to much, much worse!

DJ · Post by DJ » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:48 pm

I'm familiar with both programs, and they've both been to No. 92, as have most similar shows.

This one did feature two guys, both young-ish. One with a beard. The other looked like a teenager, almost. It wasn't a full hour or even a half-hour, that I recall, but it was definitely one of the better visits by paranormal "experts."

"Ghost Adventures," maybe? I'm still unclear/unsure.

Thanks for your suggestions!

DJ · Post by DJ » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:19 pm

Two shows on tonight-- Friday, Sep. 14th-- on the Biography Channel. "My Ghost Story" and "My Ghost Story: Caught on Camera."

At 9 p.m. and 10 p.m., EST.

The first, I believe, is the one in which the two women have the "night from hell" in Andrew's/Abby's bedroom, and leave thinking the ghost of Mr. Borden is following them!!! OK, as a curiosity.

The second is the one, I believe, to which I was referring above. That is, the one with the "But I'm a good daughter" EVP.
Most interesting!

I'll be watching, to verify.

DJ · Post by DJ » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:18 pm

Yes, those were the programs.

If that voice speaking, "But I'm a good daughter," was indeed Lizzie's, I could see how Eli Bence made a positive I.D., just from the sound of it. :)

NESpinster · Post by **NESpinster** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:03 am

DJ wrote:Two shows on tonight-- Friday, Sep. 14th-- on the Biography Channel. "My Ghost Story" and "My Ghost Story: Caught on Camera."

At 9 p.m. and 10 p.m., EST.

The first, I believe, is the one in which the two women have the "night from hell" in Andrew's/Abby's bedroom, and leave thinking the ghost of Mr. Borden is following them!!! OK, as a curiosity.

The second is the one, I believe, to which I was referring above. That is, the one with the "But I'm a good daughter" EVP.
Most interesting!

I'll be watching, to verify.

Oh, RATS, I missed it--that'll teach me to wander off, lol! But I'll check the listings in hopes that it will be repeated--these things usually are. I would dearly love to hear the sound of Lizzie's voice, esp. with that distinctive New England accent!!

Now if you will excuse me, I will lock myself in my room so that I can begin kicking myself for not reading this sooner!

NESpinster · Post by **NESpinster** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:08 am

Yooper wrote:I would be very tempted to ask Lizzie if she was aware that the dead woman in the guest room was a stand-in hired by Andrew, while the real Abby is currently having a conversation with the police.

ROFLMAO--good one, Yooper!

Love to see her reaction to that!!

NESpinster · Post by **NESpinster** » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:28 am

stargazer wrote:why didn't you get the hell out of that house when you found your father dead ?

Stargazer, that's a great question. If I were a (relatively) young woman who had just walked into the room to see my own father horribly hacked to death, even with Bridget upstairs, no way would I be hanging around the house, or letting anyone else (such as Bridget) do so either. What made Lizzie think that she was safe? There was no man (besides a likely killer!) in the house even-- Uncle Morse was out visiting relatives, Emma out of town on vacation, Abby allegedly out on an "errand of mercy"-- so as far as Lizzie knew only she and Bridget were in the house--very possibly with a hatchet-wielding murderer waiting in the shadows to strike down more victims.

If Lizzie had anything, it was good old Yankee common sense. She would have surely thought about the dangers of two defenseless young women alone in a house with a murderer, and she would (or should) have removed Bridget and herself from the house before calling the police and the doctor. Esp. when just the night before she had told her friend Miss Russell about "Father's enemies" and how fearful she was--surely this alone would have convinced her that her fears were well-founded and that the murders had just begun!

But....no. She sends Bridget for the doctor and deliberately leaves herself alone in the house where a horrific murder has just occurred. I can't think of any woman on earth who would do that!!

Unless, of course, Lizzie knew that her life was in no danger whatever.

And perhaps she had a bit of "cleaning-up" to do before the doctors, police, neighbors, and relatives arrived.

Albanyguy · Post by **Albanyguy** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:13 pm

She sends Bridget for the doctor and deliberately leaves herself alone in the house where a horrific murder has just occurred.

And this is one of the two things that convinced me that she was the killer. The other is the fact that she never accused Bridget. If Lizzie was truly innocent, then once she had time to think about it, she must have known that Bridget was the most likely suspect. Why wouldn't she point her finger at Bridget, especially when the police were closing in on her, when she was sitting in jail for nearly a year and when she was on trial for her life? Why wouldn't she let Robinson and Jennings float that possibility?

Neither of these things is the kind of evidence that could stand up in court, but it defies logic that an innocent woman would do either of them.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:43 pm

That's a good analysis method, Albanyguy, a comparison between what we might expect an innocent person would/should do, and what was actually done. Another point to consider, why would Lizzie believe that she needed to go to the cemetery to make arrangements rather than Abby?

Albanyguy · Post by **Albanyguy** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:20 pm

Yooper wrote:Another point to consider, why would Lizzie believe that she needed to go to the cemetery to make arrangements rather than Abby?

Wow, Yooper, I never thought of that one, but it absolutely makes sense. She also told Alice Russell that when the time came to call an undertaker she wanted Winward's. She was very clearly assuming that she would be in charge of planning Andrew's funeral when, logically, his widow would have the right to make the final decisions.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:24 pm

Lizzie was not the least bit concerned with Abby in any sense immediately after the murders. From the time Mrs. Churchill arrived, Lizzie only responded to prompts from others about where Abby was. She told Mrs. Churchill that she thought Abby might have come to some harm at one point very early after Mrs. Churchill's arrival. Unless Lizzie thought it was raining hatchets in Fall River that day, this clearly indicates that Lizzie thought Abby was in the house. Lizzie's inquest testimony indicates she thought Abby was simultaneously in and out of the house, depending on what Lizzie needed at the time during the questioning. Lizzie sent Mrs. Churchill and Bridget upstairs to find Abby because she thought she heard Abby return on the day of the murders. While Lizzie clearly couldn't have heard Abby return, she might have heard an intruder leaving and mistaken that for Abby returning. The problem is, according to all of the testimony there was absolutely no opportunity for Lizzie to have heard that without seeing the individual in question. So, this begs the question: How did Lizzie know enough to forestall Bridget's suggestion to go to Whitehead's to find Abby, and send the two women upstairs instead? Examine what Lizzie did and did not do immediately after the murders, that's where she made the most mistakes. It takes a good bit of cross-referencing with the primary source documents, but some things jump right off the page! There are subtleties involved also, like having heard Abby "come" in rather than "go" in, which logistically puts Lizzie in the house rather than outside, if only in a Freudian manner. If you think about it, how many people would make that logistical mistake in speech inadvertently?

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:09 am

That makes so much sense, Yooper.
And, if had been me, I would have instantly run out of the house for help and protection. Never mind calling the maid down. I wouldn't have been out of there fast enough.

Raine · Post by **Raine** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:34 pm

My first post here :-) though I've studied this case for probably 30 years.

I would ABSOLUTELY have to ask Lizzie where she hid her dress and did she leave it on during the time between Abby's death and her father's.

Raine · Post by **Raine** » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:51 pm

I posted a reply about a week ago but it never showed up so I'll try again. I would ask Lizzie where she hide the dress after the crime and did she wear the same clothes between the murder of Abby and her father's killing. Seems like quite a while to wander around in blood splattered clothing.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Fri May 10, 2013 1:34 pm

Hello Augusta,
I think the pear cores question should not be answered by Lizzie, but by the police. They probably didn't question and search them. What a stupidity!
But I agree with you that the hiding place of the intruder, if there was a intruder, could have been the gust room. It's should have been the best place for hiding and preparing his second killing.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue May 14, 2013 9:21 am

NESpinster wrote:
Allen wrote:The question I would most like to ask her is, how did she keep herself from getting spattered with blood?
Good one!!! I think that's something everyone would love to know!

Lizzie's answer could have been very prompt:"I had nothing to do with the murders; It was not me who killed them." And I think her answer could be true.