Ammunition for Suspicion

[PossumPie]

I've been thinking that EVERY character in the case acted strangely. We just pick our favorite suspect and focus on them, but can we all cooperate for a moment and list as many suspicious things said, done, or observed by the main characters all in one thread? I'll start with a few:

Lizzie- Why did she contradict herself multiple times on almost everything she said? Why was she so calm? Why did she say that SHE would have to go to the Cemetery before they even found Mrs. Borden's body?

Emma-
Morse-
Mrs. Churchill- Why did she throw suspicion to Lizzie so quickly? Right from the beginning she told of the bad relations in the house. What did she mean that there was one thing she saw in the house that day that she would never repeat? If you wouldn't repeat it, why bring it up at all? Why did she see every coming and going from the Borden home that morning?

Dr. Bowen- Why did he burn the paper?

[Franz]

......
Mrs. Churchill- ...... What did she mean that there was one thing she saw in the house that day that she would never repeat? If you wouldn't repeat it, why bring it up at all? ......

This is the human nature:"I know a secret, but I will not tell you." Women usually are more bravo than men in the matters of this kind... oh, excuse me, all female members.

[Mara]

Maybe the sensational business about "what Mrs. Churchill saw" was newspaperman Edwin McHenry's lavish embellishment of Mrs. Churchill's otherwise ho-hum statement about wishing she didn't have to testify. Or maybe he just flat-out made it up. Anyway, I've read somewhere that the newspaper even apologized for the article shortly after it was published.

[PossumPie]

Mara has a VERY good point- we cannot hinge our idea of innocence/guilt on one or two suspicious things b/c the media twisted, and sometimes invented out of thin air much of what we now say was "suspicious"

[Aamartin]

......
Mrs. Churchill- ...... What did she mean that there was one thing she saw in the house that day that she would never repeat? If you wouldn't repeat it, why bring it up at all? ......

This is the human nature:"I know a secret, but I will not tell you." Women usually are more bravo than men in the matters of this kind... oh, excuse me, all female members.

Men are MUCH better secret keepers when they are doing something they are ashamed of, an affair, a crime, etc. I think men are sneakier.

[dalcanton]

"Mrs. Churchill...What did she mean that there was one thing she saw in the house that day that she would never repeat?"

Let's speculate that she really did see something in that house on that awful day. What do you think it was? The possibilities are endless...and fascinating. Evidence of blood on Lizzie after all? Maybe Lizzie smirking while she thought no one was looking (gleeful that her stepmother was dead)? Other circumstantial evidence?

[PossumPie]

"Mrs. Churchill...What did she mean that there was one thing she saw in the house that day that she would never repeat?"

Let's speculate that she really did see something in that house on that awful day. What do you think it was? The possibilities are endless...and fascinating. Evidence of blood on Lizzie after all? Maybe Lizzie smirking while she thought no one was looking (gleeful that her stepmother was dead)? Other circumstantial evidence?

I think it was more mundane, she refused to go with Dr. Bowen to 'see Mr. Borden' but I bet she sneaked a peek, and saw his eyeball hanging out. That was what she would never repeat!

[Franz]

......
Mrs. Churchill- ...... What did she mean that there was one thing she saw in the house that day that she would never repeat? If you wouldn't repeat it, why bring it up at all? ......

This is the human nature:"I know a secret, but I will not tell you." Women usually are more bravo than men in the matters of this kind... oh, excuse me, all female members.

Men are MUCH better secret keepers when they are doing something they are ashamed of, an affair, a crime, etc. I think men are sneakier.

Sorry for my poor English. indeed I wanted to say the same thing as you did. I was saying: a woman could say: "I know a secret, but I will not tell you." (Mrs. Churchill might have done so). That's why I asked pardon to all female members.

[Franz]

"Mrs. Churchill...What did she mean that there was one thing she saw in the house that day that she would never repeat?"

Let's speculate that she really did see something in that house on that awful day. What do you think it was? The possibilities are endless...and fascinating. Evidence of blood on Lizzie after all? Maybe Lizzie smirking while she thought no one was looking (gleeful that her stepmother was dead)? Other circumstantial evidence?

I don't think Mrs. Churchill saw any evidence of blood on Lizzie. Everyone testified that he / she didn't see any blood on Lizzie, Mrs. Churchill included.

[Franz]

"Mrs. Churchill...What did she mean that there was one thing she saw in the house that day that she would never repeat?"

Let's speculate that she really did see something in that house on that awful day. What do you think it was? The possibilities are endless...and fascinating. Evidence of blood on Lizzie after all? Maybe Lizzie smirking while she thought no one was looking (gleeful that her stepmother was dead)? Other circumstantial evidence?

I think it was more mundane, she refused to go with Dr. Bowen to 'see Mr. Borden' but I bet she sneaked a peek, and saw his eyeball hanging out. That was what she would never repeat!

I don't think so. It is not impossible, as you suggested, that Mrs. Churchill sneaked a peek and saw Andrew's eyeball hanging out. In fact many people saw Andrew's eyeball hanging out. So, in my opinion, if Mrs. Churchill did see something that she would never repeat, it should have been something that only Mrs. Churchill saw, or at least Mrs. Churchill believed, rightly or wrongly, that she was the unique person to have seen that thing.

[PossumPie]

"Mrs. Churchill...What did she mean that there was one thing she saw in the house that day that she would never repeat?"

Let's speculate that she really did see something in that house on that awful day. What do you think it was? The possibilities are endless...and fascinating. Evidence of blood on Lizzie after all? Maybe Lizzie smirking while she thought no one was looking (gleeful that her stepmother was dead)? Other circumstantial evidence?

I think it was more mundane, she refused to go with Dr. Bowen to 'see Mr. Borden' but I bet she sneaked a peek, and saw his eyeball hanging out. That was what she would never repeat!

I don't think so. It is not impossible, as you suggested, that Mrs. Churchill sneaked a peek and saw Andrew's eyeball hanging out. In fact many people saw Andrew's eyeball hanging out. So, in my opinion, if Mrs. Churchill did see something that she would never repeat, it should have been something that only Mrs. Churchill saw, or at least Mrs. Churchill believed, rightly or wrongly, that she was the unique person to have seen that thing.

Franz, I think you are misinterpreting "I will never repeat" to mean she is keeping a secret. I am interpreting it to mean she saw something too horrible to talk about with anyone else. I heard things as a psychologist that I won't repeat...not b/c they are secret, but b/c they are too horrible to talk about.

[Curryong]

IF McHenry, who heard Mrs Churchill's 'statement' at third-hand, wasn't outright lying, then I think that the thing Mrs Churchill saw that she would never repeat had nothing to do with the murders.
I think at some point Mrs Churchill saw significant glances passing between Lizzie and Dr Bowen. She crept nearer and overheard Dr Bowen, who was taking Lizzie's pulse at the time, quietly murmur "It's all right dearest. I've burned the note."
Mrs Churchill, a kind-hearted, if nosy, old biddy, decided that the doctor would be ruined if anything got out about the flirtation between him and Lizzie, so she kept quiet except for hints. Hey, he did accompany Lizzie to church on occasion!

[debbiediablo]

We need to balance that it was 'too horrible' for Churchill to talk about versus she tossed it out there almost as a teaser if her remark is fact not factoid. Unless it relates to her peeking at Andrew's body. Perhaps she needed a shrink (or a detective) in the room to say, "Oh really, what's this all about?" Seeing the mutilated face of the corpse of your friend's father could definitely be a traumatizing event withstanding the moment and also a lifetime. But if Mrs. Churchill were so traumatized by what she sneaked a glance at, why is she willing to go upstairs with Bridget for another round of peek-a-boo? At some subconscious level she had to know what they would likely find. That said, people do not respond in predictable ways during entirely unpredicted circumstance.

[PossumPie]

IF McHenry, who heard Mrs Churchill's 'statement' at third-hand, wasn't outright lying, then I think that the thing Mrs Churchill saw that she would never repeat had nothing to do with the murders.
I think at some point Mrs Churchill saw significant glances passing between Lizzie and Dr Bowen. She crept nearer and overheard Dr Bowen, who was taking Lizzie's pulse at the time, quietly murmur "It's all right dearest. I've burned the note."
Mrs Churchill, a kind-hearted, if nosy, old biddy, decided that the doctor would be ruined if anything got out about the flirtation between him and Lizzie, so she kept quiet except for hints. Hey, he did accompany Lizzie to church on occasion!

My difficulty with any theory that it was because of "love" such as Lizzie's "secret boyfriend" or Dr. Bowen, is that there was no information after the acquittal that Lizzie kept company with Dr. Bowen or a 'secret boyfriend'. Are we to believe that someone killed so Lizzie could be with a man, then never was?

[Curryong]

Sorry, PossumPie. It was a poor attempt at a bit of humour. I don't really believe that Dr Bowen was boyfriend to anyone, but was a happily married man. Even if Lincoln did characterise him as 'overly-handsome' in her book, and he did accompany Miss Lizzie to Church!

[Catbooks]

assuming for the moment she really said that, i don't think it was about andrew. as horrifying as seeing that would have been, many people saw him, and everyone knew about it.

seems like she would be referring to something incriminating about someone, but didn't want to involve herself by saying. unless she saw something like lizzie through the dining room windows with a hatchet, i can't think of what it might be. if she said it at all.

[debbiediablo]

Sorry, PossumPie. It was a poor attempt at a bit of humour. I don't really believe that Dr Bowen was boyfriend to anyone, but was a happily married man. Even if Lincoln did characterise him as 'overly-handsome' in her book, and he did accompany Miss Lizzie to Church!

I'm not so sure. The gruesome murder of a father and step-mother isn't quite like a honeymoon in Cancun to ensure living happily ever after. IF the story about David Anthony is true, even in part, then I can better imagine them apart as opposed to together. Both would face the gallows if either of them talked so their silence would seem assured. (I don't buy into multiple servants knowing about this but no one else, not ever. That part of the story looks embellished to me, so maybe it all is.) Plus we're assuming they would have been in love. What if she manipulated him into it? What's he gonna go...go to the police and tell them that damned Devil Woman made me do it?!?!? I have a lot more thinking to do about the conspiracy theory between her and a suitor, but seeing them apart afterward is easier for me than seeing them together for any length of time. Plus, we can't be sure they weren't together, at least for awhile. Maybe their assignations took place far from Falls River. The reason I like the idea is it clears up a lot of evidentiary problems...plus there seems to be a catharsis in confession near the end of life. It makes sense for Lizzie to tell someone...to unburden herself just once. Or maybe twice, given the circumstances under which Emma left.

I quoted the wrong person. This is meant as a reply to PossumPie.

[twinsrwe]

… My difficulty with any theory that it was because of "love" such as Lizzie's "secret boyfriend" or Dr. Bowen, is that there was no information after the acquittal that Lizzie kept company with Dr. Bowen or a 'secret boyfriend'. Are we to believe that someone killed so Lizzie could be with a man, then never was?

I have a really hard time believing that Dr. Bowen or any man would allow a woman to be arrested, spend time in jail, and then go to trial and be put in a position of possible conviction, which would have lead to death, for something HE did. This is not a caring relationship in my book. Furthermore, would Lizzie have cared enough for any man to allow herself to be put on this position? I think not.

[Curryong]

The Dr Bowen scenario was just a joke, everyone. I don't think there's much evidence for poor Lizzie to have ever inspired anyone to kill for her sake, and the Dave Anthony theory hasn't really got legs unless you believe that Miss Borden changed the habit of a lifetime and unburdened herself to a near-stranger. Possible but not really likely.