Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Goodbye Lizzie Borden, Robert Sullivan, pg. 34-5:
"Parenthetically, one of the great mysteries of the Borden case was, and remains, that Sarah Whitehead, beloved half-sister of Abby Borden, was never inquired of at any time in the police investigation of the murders. Indeed, only Bridget, and she during the first frenzy following the discovery of Andrew's murder, thought it would be logical to ask if Mrs. Whitehead knew where Abby could have gone. Also, by all accounts---including Mrs. Potter's when I discussed the murders with her---Abby Borden had few if any friends other than Mrs. Whitehead, and none other than Mrs. Whitehead would be likely to write a note to Mrs. Borden in the event of sickness. And still further, when the note from the "sick friend" was supposed to have been sent, Sarah Whitehead was hale and hearty and was, in fact, that day on the sail to Rocky Point to attend the police clambake, about which so much has been written. All in all, it is incredible that a thorough examination of the total transcript reveals that Sarah Whitehead was never called to the witness stand by the prosecution. A distressing footnote was supplied by Mrs. Abby Potter, who told me:
'On the morning of 4 August, the day of the murders, my mother [Mrs. Sarah Whitehead],
planning to attend the policemen's annual picnic at Rocky Point, was making arrangements for the care of my younger brother and myself. George was to go to [another aunt's house], and I was to spend the day with Aunt Abby at 92 Second Street. At the last moment there was a change in plans, and I was sent with my brother to [my other aunt's] house, which was next door to the home of Marshal Hilliard in another section of Fall River.
In the late afternoon while I was helping Aunt Lucy wash windows, Marshal Hilliard returned home, and standing in the yard, informed Aunt Lucy of Aunt Abby's murder. The shock of the news was so great that Aunt Lucy dropped the window on my hand.' "

Excellent find! And what an alibi if she was on a boat with dozens of witnesses or at Rocky Point surrounded by the majority of the Fall River Police Force.

Just picked up a first edition in near fine condition, $24. I'm building my Borden bookshelf.

It’s been so long since I’ve read Sullivan, but I thoroughly enjoyed his analysis. What an amazing story, and coincidence that Abby was supposed to visit her aunt at 92 Second Street on August 4th.
So many strange connections in the Borden case.

Difficult to know how much confidence to place on the recollections of a 7 or 8 year old (Abby Potter in 1892). I really think Bridget would be aware if their was going to be a young lady spending the day at the Borden house. That morning Abby discussed lunch w/ Bridget and no mention of Abby coming.
On Wednesday they were still feeling poorly, so maybe that is when the change of plans was communicated to Sarah Whitehead. Still, it seems Bridget would be aware and would have mentioned to police.
Can't quite decide if I think the details of such arrangements would be shared with a young person and if they would accurately mentally capture and decades later recall correctly.
Otherwise, Abby coming over might have thrown quite the wrench in the plans of the killer, assuming the killing was decided upon by the time the day started.

The Sullivan book arrived. It has a version of the newspaper 3D neighborhood map that I haven't seen before. In the interest of this site being the digital version of the FRHS trying to preserve things, here's a copy.

every time I see a version of that 'birds eye view' of the neighborhood, I am struck with the remarkable talent of the artist.

Well, it was worth a shot. The FBI records start in 1921, so there is nothing on Lizzie.

I think its awfully cool that you gave it a try. Appreciate it!

I find it odd that no interviews took place during her lifetime.
Not necessarily about the crimes, but that no one was able or thought it of interest to find out more about her.

I found an article where her name was mentioned, but the photos no longer link:

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/hatcheto ... stigation/

Inspector, that 'oddity' applies to basically the entire cast of the Borden murders. The Boston Post published an interview with Emma in 1913 and I think that's pretty much it.

We have a few odds and ends of insight that come up in the following decades, but very very little. The case went into a public interest deep freeze until Edmund Pearson wrote his real crime book, "Studies in Murder", published 1924, The Modern Library/Random House. Chapter 1 is the Borden Case.

Pearson does include references to fresh insights he received from people who had been around at the time of the murders. Mostly rumorish type of stuff, but not all of it.

This book brought the case back into the light, and then with Lizzie's death just three years later, public interest increased and Pearson's book had three more printings in the 1930's.

I tend to collect hardcovers, but with Pearson's book being 99 cents on Kindle, I picked it up.

In investigating the Bridget photos with Camgarsky, I just so happened to have the Jeremy Brett Sherlock Holmes series on in the background and I saw Mrs. Hudson played by Rosalie Williams and I said, that solves the mystery of the helmet hair photo of Bridget. It seems Bridget preferred her hair all brushed back from her face and piled up on top.

Thinking about it, that is a very convenient hairstyle for a Victorian Era domestic servant who has to do a lot of housework.

Cam, I didn’t know he was the one who ignited the case, that’s interesting.
I might like to read his early account, and probably would enjoy his rumorish stuff for a change.
Maybe I’ll poke around on-line to find it.

Lorcan. Your link was from our old forum friend—Harry Widdows.
He was a great researcher too.

Found the Pearson early writing, he says Lizzie is still in the kitchen when Bridget comes back in from vomiting, still engaged with eating breakfast, which we know is contrary to Bridget’s testimony.
He mentioned a feather duster, was it ever found?
I don’t remember if an actual feather duster was mentioned in testimony.
Not nitpicking, because I’m enjoying his writing, and like his writing style. Just getting started with it so thanks for the reference to him.

Something occurred while reading Pearson.
When Lizzie asked Bridget if she was going out that afternoon, and subsequently mentioned she may go out too, along with the Sargents coaxing (if you will) struck me as never before.
I feel Lizzie wanted to leave the house, and wanted Bridget away as well.
The plan was to blame an intruder, and leave the house vacant.
Of course I’m speculating.
If Morse found the victims, hmm…
This doesn’t make sense if they were expecting JVM , and Bridget had to cook lunch.

Pearson was very biased towards Lizzie's guilt, so keep that in mind. I don't think he intentionally misstated facts to support that perspective, but he still had that strong tilt. He needs to be fact checked as much as any other author. However, he did go to Fall River when some folks were still alive and he had extensive interaction with Frank Knowlton, Hosea's son.

The FRHS sells a book call the "Knowlton-Pearson Correspondence', which shares their ongoing, multi-year letter writing as Pearson worked on his books. I find the book to contain interesting insights, but I wouldn't necessarily consider purchasing and reading as key to studying the case. Buying it would be a personal decision depending on your degree of Lizzie addiction.

As far as the Sargent's chat, keeping what happened to Andrew mere moments later as the reference point, I can't come up with another plausible explanation for the purpose of Lizzie's Sargents/shopping suggestions. As many have speculated, it seems very possible that Bridget had that Thursday afternoon 'off' from work responsibilities and that is what Lizzie was leaning into. Bridget didn't respond with, 'but I can't, its against the rules', or such like.

As I constantly remind myself...all these events happened in rapid fire succession...so I try not to 'freeze in time' any particular comment or movement and extrapolate too much out of it and forget the context and setting.

For anyone planning a vacation to Fall River, FRHS updated the website:

Due to a major infrastructure project, the FRHS Museum and Archive is closed and will reopen in Spring 2027 The Museum Shop is now CLOSED for the season.

It should be worth the wait.

Hosea Knowlton: And ate no cookies?
Lizzie Borden: I don't know whether I did or not. We had some molasses cookies. I don't know whether I ate any that morning or not.

I had some Archway iced molasses soft cookies and I got wondering what the molasses cookies were like in 1892.

1892 Molasses Cookies

Ingredients

• 1 cup dark or robust molasses (Do not use blackstrap, but look for a dark molasses like Grandma’s Molasses to mimic the unrefined flavor of the 1890s)
• 1/2 cup shortening or lard (Lard is historically accurate; shortening is a great modern substitute. Avoid butter if you want the exact 1892 texture, as butter adds water and makes cookies softer)
• 2 tablespoons warm water or milk
• 1 teaspoon baking soda
• 3 cups all-purpose flour
• 1 tablespoon ground ginger (19th-century recipes used a lot of ginger)
• 1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
• 1/2 teaspoon ground cloves
• 1/2 teaspoon salt

Instructions

Heat the base:
• In a medium saucepan, combine the molasses and the shortening/lard.
• Heat over medium low just until the shortening is entirely melted and the mixture is warm (do not boil).
• Remove from the heat.

Activate the soda:
• Dissolve the baking soda into the 2 tablespoons of warm water or milk, then stir it directly into the warm molasses mixture. It will foam and turn a lighter color. This is exactly what nineteenth-century bakers looked for.

Mix the dry ingredients:
• In a large bowl, whisk together the flour, ginger, cinnamon, cloves, and salt.

Combine:
• Pour the warm molasses mixture into the dry ingredients.
• Stir with a wooden spoon until a stiff dough forms.

Chill:
• Divide the dough into two disks, wrap them in plastic, and refrigerate for at least 1 hour. This dough is sticky and needs to be chilled to be rollable.

Roll and Cut:
• Preheat your oven to 350
• Lightly flour your counter.
• Roll the dough out to 1/4-inch thick.
• Cut into rounds using a simple circular cutter.

Bake:
• Place on a baking sheet lined with parchment paper.
• Bake for 8 to 10 minutes. (They will look dry on top.)
• Let them cool completely on a wire rack.

Unlike modern soft cookies, these will cool into a sturdy, slightly crisp, deeply spiced biscuit. They are fantastic for dunking into hot coffee.

I see what mean about fact checking, but it’s always interesting and exciting to hear from those close to the time period. I don’t remember reading his early commentary on the case, and I was wondering who he felt was the murderer. so thank you for the information.
A little change of pace from Spencer.

Couple things:
When Emma stated to Mayor Coughlin that they had tried to keep it from Lizzie that she was suspected, I fail to see how that relates to John being followed by the crowd,
Two separate issues in my mind.
Emma using plurality also means her, John, and possibly Alice, Harrington, and others also were seeing something didn’t add up, and they too must have suspected Lizzie, or figured it was coming.
What were they doing to “keep It” from Lizzie?
Were they consoling her, or pampering her while the whole time not believing her? Why keep it from her, why not discuss it with her?
I just feel something is being overlooked here in Emma’s words, that may give a clue.

When did Hiram Harrington have his interview with Lizzie, and was it definitely verified?
It could be closely related to Emma’s words, and he could have warned Emma of what might be coming.

Here are a couple photos (sized for the forum limits) of the Miller Bowen House (Dr. Seabury Bowen).

Great picture of the demo, haven’t seen it before.

Lorcan , can you enhance the older photo?
Looks like a door handle on the fence.

I do enhance them with AI just for fun, but I am very mindful of the risk of polluting the evidence by releasing them publicly. I try to release AI enhancements very rarely and always labelled clearly. To give you an idea of what standard ChatGPT can be made to do with that old original photo, here is the fence section in question.

It actually saw what you saw, Inspector. I didn't prompt it other than telling it to enhance the photo and colorize it. The issue is that it is a statistical pattern matching of all the photos it was trained on and it will completely invent details that aren't really there sometimes. In this case, that actually does look like a door. Was it invented by the AI? We all have to judge for ourselves.

The risk of invention is shown by something that halfway looks like a kid in the yard behind the fence, but it also looks like a line of sight mixture of items that is just the kind of thing that can confuse an AI at this stage of its publicly released capabilities.

AI does particularly bad with text within images. It currently uses a technology called diffusion which is entirely different than real text in a large language model. It is not natively seeing letters with diffusion, just shapes. It will get better in newer versions, but it is not ready yet. Here's an example of an image where AI will invent way too much. This is an original photo with no AI.

Thanks Lorcan! That’s interesting, I never noticed what looks like a child behind the fence. The original is actually more revealing in that regard.
I wish the door in the fence showed hinges, but they could be in the opposite side.

I didn't pick up this detail until tonight. The stove is on the West wall of the kitchen. The cupboard (closet door) is on the far South end of the kitchen. Emma states Lizzie was standing between the stove and the Dining Room door on the far North end of the kitchen. Could be timing, but it is interesting. Emma puts Lizzie out in the open where she can be seen from 3 rooms, Alice has Lizzie step back out of sight on the other side of the stove. Also, if Alice is to be believed, Lizzie was storing the dress in the kitchen cupboard and walking completely around to the other size of the stove instead of loading it from the front.

Emma
Q. Now will you tell the Court and the Jury all that you saw or heard that morning in the kitchen?

A. I was washing dishes, and I heard my sister's voice and I turned round and saw she was standing at the foot of the stove, between the foot of the stove and the dining room door. This dress was hanging on her arm and she says, "I think I shall burn this old dress up."

Alice
Q. What did you see then?
A. Miss Lizzie stood up towards the cupboard door. The cupboard door was open, and she appeared to be either ripping something down or tearing part of this garment.
Q. What part?
A. I don't know for sure. It was a small part.
Q. A smaller part? Go on and state.
A. I said to her, "I wouldn't let anybody see me do that, Lizzie." She didn't make any answer. I left the room.
Q. Did she do anything when you said that?
A. She stepped just one step farther back up towards the cupboard door.
Q. Did you notice where the waist of the dress was when she held the skirt in her hands as you first came in?
A. I didn't know that it was the waist, but I saw a portion of this dress up on the cupboard shelf.
Q. Inside the cupboard?
A. Yes. The door was wide open.

Emma’s claim that she originated and encouraged the destruction contradicts Lizzie’s immediate reaction when the burning first became recognized as incriminating. Lizzie blamed Alice, who had warned her about visibility, not Emma who originally suggested destroying the dress and later encouraged its destruction. Put more bluntly: Emma’s story supplies an innocent authorization that Lizzie herself apparently did not invoke when she most needed one.

Worse, Lizzie's reaction to Alice warning about being seen wasn't, what do you mean, or you're being silly, her reaction was to back up closer to the cupboard to make it harder for her to be seen from the windows. That reaction is inconsistent with Lizzie not understanding that the dress burning could be seen as inappropriate or worse.

Here's the position of the stove relative to the rest of the kitchen. I don't think either of them is original, but the position is where it was in 1892.

This is not Stefani, but Mbhenty, instead.

I have told this story on the forum in the past.

I had a friend who worked for his father's wrecking company. In an earlier post I called him Bob, since he was still alive. But his name was Terry Laberge and he worked for, and later was owner of, the Laberge Wrecking Company in Fall River. They were the people who demolished the Bowen house, including the old City Hall in Fall River.

At a gathering he had told me about a secret passage that went between the Borden house and the Bowen House, at least he thought so at the time and would swear by it. He said he crawled through it and it stopped just short of the Borden place. He had to be a young teenager at the time .I was suppose to get together with him so he could give me the particulars about the tunnel but he died before I had a chance. Supposedly the tunnel was made of brick and you could walk or crawl through it. And it led to the borden house, according to Terry. He said he had the plans or paperwork to prove it.

Terry was a hoot. We use to drive around with him in his 1965 impala, drinking. No, not pop or soda. Something a little stronger. I must have been 15 at the time. The Chevy had a high performance 396 engine pushing 425 horse. A mean machine at the time. Black on black convertible. I remember when he purchased it new. Shortly after purchasing the car he had drilled a hole in the floor so he could drop his empty beer cans as he drove.

But, I remember him telling me about the tunnel and swearing that it lead to the Borden Place.

To me the story sounded far fetched. Why would someone build a tunnel between the two buildings. But then again, if memory serves me well, Southard H. Miller, Bowen's father and law, built both the Bowen house and the Borden place. Interesting conspiracy to say the least.

mbhenty.

Hi MB!

My recollection of discussing this previously is that the teenage version of your friend and his father crawled thru the tunnel and it came out in the cellar of an unidentified house. Is my memory addled? Very possible...on Saturday I qualified for Medicare, so never know the tricks my 'old' memory is starting to play.

Welcome back, MB. I think there really was a brick-lined tunnel, but one of these:

A Coal Chute or Storage Vault: 19th-century New England urban homes regularly built brick-vaulted storage rooms that extended past the home's foundation and under the sidewalk or street. Delivery carts could dump coal or wood directly into these sub-street vaults.

Early Municipal Drainage: Mid-1800s Fall River had a network of primitive brick sewer lines and drainage culverts running under its main streets.

A Deep Root Cellar: Sub-level masonry vaults extending into the cool earth under the yard were standard for keeping food from spoiling before modern refrigeration.

But, it is fun to think about where a hatchet could have been hidden.

1. Wrapped up against Lizzie's leg under the dress.
2. Inside a hollow dressmaker form with an unfinished or obviously non-suspicious dress mounted on top
3. Down a window counterweight shaft or other in the walls location
4. On the roof of the Crowe barn
5. In a hollow/rotten part of a tree
6. Andrew was a carpenter, did he construct any clever hiding places around the house that Lizzie might have discovered?
7. Hidden in the old carriage or other garage items (old cans of paint, etc.)

Last year I brought up both the subjects you mentioned, Alice and Emma’s differences concerning Lizzie around the stove , as well as the tunnel.

Cam wasn’t aware of the tunnel, had no comment on the testimony difference.

I watched Rich Little and Seth on the Seth Rosczewski Podcast youtube podcast. They went on the tour of the house yesterday. One thing that might be interesting is this weekend they will be doing a live podcast with the owners of Miss Lizzie's Coffee who used to be next door to the Borden house. They moved into the former Central Congregational Church building replacing the Abbey Grill. Seth said the owners have a new theory of the case that neither Seth nor Rich Little have heard before.

Anyone want to take a guess at what their theory will be?

My guess is it will be someone who was in love with Lizzie, but not anyone we already know about. She was going to turn him in but he said he would sentence himself rather than put her through more pain, so she forgave him on the condition he leave Fall River and never try to contact her again.

Are they going to feature this new theory on their podcast?

If is a completely new theory, maybe it includes Dr. Handy or Bowen.

The church building is large, so they must be renting out space to multiple vendors. If they get enough interesting vendors, it would be a good place to add to the tourist tour.

Yes, theory reveal live on the podcast. It will be available here: https://www.youtube.com/@TheSethRosczewskiPodcast

If you want to send in any questions you can email Seth & Rich. https://thesethrosczewskipodcast.com/contact

There’s a new audiobook on YT by Alana Sanchez called :
Lizzie Borden A True Crime Historical Account
I’m a couple hours into the five hour book, and
I like her factual, and practical approach, but haven’t gotten to the meat of the story yet.
In the introduction she asserts her aim is to stick to the truth, and not get sidetracked into all the speculation, and theories.
So far she made the point of how the machine of law has to move forward, and speaks about the theatrical aspect of the court proceedings.
She mentions how Bridget would be very aware of the happenings in the Borden house, and the time of day that duties were expected to occur.
Not to spoil it in case y’all want to listen to it, but she starts out similar to other authors who give a historical Fall River description to set the stage for new comers, and points out how it would have been normal for all the people to enter the house and gather around to help others.
Of course now it would contaminate the crime scene.

Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bVEv3WPK2U

Thanks Inspector, I'll add it to my research queue.

Regarding Alana Sanchez's book & youtube audiobook, I got a bit suspicious with the use of the AI virtual voice for narration, so I looked at the book preview. The text is full of em dash clauses. 99% certain it was written by AI. Em dashes are the most notorious indication of AI texts.

Well that’s too bad. I was wondering why a new book would be totally free like that. Thanks for letting me know. I’ll skip it and look at other trails.

If you look at the book reviews on Amazon, someone pointed out they somehow didn't include Uncle John in the book. Thanks for surfacing the Murder Weapon Found thread.

What trails are you sleuths on now?

I'm 85% done getting the trial transcripts into my database. I already have the inquest and preliminary hearing. Then I'm going to try to start adding tags to categorize the data for easier searching, create investigative topics like: The Barn Alibi, The Missing Note, etc. so specific testimony rows can be linked. I'll have a timeline visualizer, keyword search, etc. with everything directly linked to specific lines of testimony.

On the book side, I'm theoretically reading Spencer, but I'm so busy with various computer projects, I have a poor track record of slowing down for a paperback at night.

That’s going to be a huge help and time saver for researchers.

Teena - welcome back from Fall River. I tried to send an email twice using the address on your website, but the web hosting provider (godaddy) is blocking them, even with just simple text that should not trigger anything.

When I was looking for the paint restoration photos I ran across these photos of the Borden house back when there was a bus stop across the street.

Thank goodness the Borden house survived. Fall River has never had (including now) city leadership that seemed to understand the importance of maintaining a communities character, charm and history. It is hard to fathom that a river with 'waterfalls' is buried under tons of concrete and pavement. They tore down a fabulously gorgeous post office, a really neat city hall, on and on.

I think these might be what the FRHS has preserved. Not sure if the small pillow shams are still around:

https://fallriverhistorical.org/lizzie- ... 787/i:1980

I don't see any color photos. I think there might have been a video or two where part of the collection was being displayed, but I only really remember the colorful handkerchief being tested by the OJ detective.

Maybe Spring 2027 is finally the reopening of the FRHS and we'll be able to see it all in person or at least recent color photos.

I took a look around trying to find where I found those paint scraping photos and I couldn't find it. I saw a closeup on Warps and Wefts, but the real surprise for me is a copy of the warrant I saw on Facebook. I don't have an account, but I can usually browse a few photos before they kick me out. If you haven't seen this one before, enjoy.

Cam,
What odds are you considering at present?
I’ll make a guess you’ve moved negatively from 60/40 to
somewhere between 70/30 and 80/20 that Lizzie had an accomplice.

If not, who is the most likely candidate in your estimation?
Wouldn’t it have to be Bridget, if anyone ?