Lizzie Borden Society Forum

This seems like one of those, we'll agree to disagree.

On to the next topic!!

Changed my mind....for the sake of folks who might read this thread sometime down the road.

Logic for doubting Bridget's sense of time:
*Morse and Bridget contradict each other as to when Abby gave window washing instructions.
*Bridget was feeling so poorly that morning, that just before 9am, she went outside and vomited for up to 10-15 minutes.
*Bridget's recollection of washing the breakfast dishes indicate that she spent up to 1 1/2 hours doing that task.

Logic for believing Abby told Bridget about needing to get pillow shams:
*On August 4, Officer Hyde took a written report of Bridget's comments to him stating Abby had come back down to fetch shams.
*There is no record of shams mentioned again by anyone involved in the case until Lizzie's inquest testimony the following Tuesday.
*For Bridget to have overheard Lizzie mention shams it would have happened between 11:15 - 11:50. Despite every second of Lizzie's time being dissected by police and Knowlton, no witness mentions Lizzie mentioning shams.

Lizzie could possibly have mentioned the shams when she (Lizzie) sat down to have her coffee and cookies.
This could theoretically help suppress any suspicion that might occur later on concerning Abby’s whereabouts, regardless of how many trips Abby took to the guest room.

I believe I earlier posted that the first Lizzie tells us of Abby mentioning the shams was at her inquest testimony. That was incorrect.
Multiple papers report that Saturday evening, August 6, Mayor Coughlin asked Lizzie when she last saw Abby. As part of her response, Lizzie mentions that Abby was heading back up to put on the pillow shams. Below is the article.

This doesn't change the fact that (to our knowledge) Lizzie didn't mention this fact on the day of the murders.

Channeling my 'inner Inspector', the only reason Lizzie might have made up this insight is if Abby was already dead when Lizzie came downstairs and Lizzie wanted to establish that that wasn't the case. The twist to that view is that Bridget testified that she heard Abby and Lizzie speaking. Of course, if we think its possible that Bridget's sense of time and event sequence might be off, could that negate her statement saying she overheard them? I don't think she made stuff up, so that would mean she had to have overheard them another time, and can't imagine when that would have been.

click on image to enlarge

I agree that Bridget's sense of time could be off. John and Bridget contradicting each other as to who came down first, Abby or Andrew is also a bit odd.

I wonder if the ambient sound was so different back then and the doors being shut really throw me off. I specifically made a point of listening to the activity from Lizzie's bedroom and I had no trouble whatsoever hearing the ghost tour guide setting up in the kitchen walking around in modern sneakers and the two women on the 3rd floor walking around.

To think Bridget could have been loading wood and coal into the stove in the kitchen, swapping out the ice, and other kitchen duties and John being unaware of everything in the sitting room makes me question the routine perception (like living near an airport or train and unconsciously blocking out that noise). I wonder if the domestic servants were really more invisible to Victorians than they would be to us.

What I mean is John should have been able to tell from footfalls and other noise who was doing what and where unless either the ambient noise was a lot greater back then or if he blocked out routine activity. I don't think anyone other than that one witness had any notable hearing issues.

Bridget thinks she got about around 6:15am. I'm sure she was under instructions to avoid waking the elders up since they were sleeping directly above the kitchen. So her activities would have been performed slowly and quietly, until she knew they were up and awake. It is an exercise I am forced to do every morning in my house, with my wife and son both wanting to sleep in.

Camgarsky - good catch - that is exactly what I am aiming for in my mental model reconstructions, embodied analysis, thinking though what it would have been like in 1892 to do those specific chores with that specific equipment (such as making a bed, ironing, doing laundry, etc. - that were significantly different back then) seeing and hearing and smelling with 1892 senses and trying to figure out what they all would have likely experienced and been aware of at the time.

Cam, I like your scenario possibilities, even if you are just channeling…lol
If Abby was killed while Bridget was sick, that only leaves the time when Lizzie first came down for her coffee when Bridget overheard Lizzie and Abby.
One has to insert the pillow shams there, unless we look at Hyde’s statement as a conversation between only Abby and Bridget.

I think we have 3 main scenarios:

1. Camgarsky's theory that Abby was killed while Bridget was outside getting sick. That is extremely close to when Andrew left if we believe that Andrew paused at the east side of the screen door stairs (the backyard side) to make sure Bridget was ok and that's what Mrs. Churchill saw Andrew doing.

2. The standard movie view and default view that Lizzie confirmed Bridget would be outside doing windows while talking to her through the screen door before killing Abby.

3. The Lizzie is innocent theory - Lizzie is in the watercloset in the cellar when Abby is killed. Rich Little's add-on is that Bridget was seen by Lizzie running from the house to throw up because she just found out about Abby. That is very low probability because that puts Andrew in the house when Abby is killed, which is almost certainly not true.

I think 1 and 2 are both plausible. Do we have anything that would push things one way or the other?

Maybe a question to work thru before answering your ponderment...

Do we agree that 1)Bridget went out to vomit at 9am and 2) Lizzie checked on Bridget at the screen door close to 9:30.

So these two scenarios are roughly 30 minutes apart?

I agree on the timing and the 30 minute difference.

I'm thinking the timing of Abby's murder might have been down to the convergence of these 4 circumstances, that rarely happened simultaneously.

1. Andrew is going out for business (common)
2. Bridget is busy outside the house for what will likely be a wide enough window for the murder (somewhat common)
3. Lizzie and Abby are the only ones in the house (rare)
4. Abby is alone in an area of the house Bridget does not go into without specific instructions (somewhat rare).

Lizzie could have been in the kitchen, nibbling cookies and sipping coffee waiting for Andrew to leave. She may have planned to lure Abby to the sewing room at some point, but with Andrew having left, Abby alone in the guest room, and Bridget potentially seen or heard through the kitchen window as being very sick, perhaps that confluence of collectively rare circumstances caused Lizzie to move forward with the plan.