Lizzie Borden Society Forum

The evolution of my thoughts were thus:
That Lizzie's mother died with a spine disease. I've tried to imagine what that was and how painful it might have been. In her day they let blood and that's about it. I wondered if she suffered and if she took drugs. Patent medications, or prescriptions or whatever it took to dull the pain in her last days, or weeks. It's because of that *crazy* picture. She looks crazy.

Then I examine the picture of Lizzie after her release from jail. She is in Newport. She is standing holding the back of a chair. Is she gripping it? She looks dazed, tired and in pain. I see pain in her eyes. Whether it is from her ordeal or a physical pain, I don't know.
Sarah had a spine disease.
Lizzie looks a bit off-kilter here. One hip is highrer and one shoulder is higher.
And her head is bent to the side, with not much neck.

I have this view on a magnet on my fridge. I see it every day, many times. She stares out of that picture and I think of her mother and think of pain.

If Lizzie had a spinal maladjustment from birth, from Sarah, she might have used potions at different times in her life for pain.

Anyway, there is no proof, just my visual inspection and a wondering.
As I said before- there's something missing from the information we have of these crimes and of course writers try to fill that gap with their imagination. It's a subjective analysis tho- an opinion only- a theory. It's not fixed in stone or anything. Just something I pondered.

John.. With all due respect...

I have a 14 year old son named Zack. When he is in trouble with his dad or I or trying to win an argument he goes off topic in an effort to confuse the original intent of the conversation. We call is "Zack's 3rd gear". It seldom works....

You make a lot of what some might classify as wild claims and not one has ever been backed up with data, facts or even a clear idea of how you came to the conclusion.

If you wish for respect-- you have to offer it and I suggest the best way to do this is to treat the rest of us like you want to be treated. When we make claims and share opinions/ideas we do it just as that, as an opinion or idea. If we know facts-- we source those facts with testimony, links, etc to show how we know what are claiming to be fact to be fact. We do not make claims and then become snippy when the others do not fall all over each other kissing our hands for providing such wonderful new information.

It is an accepted fact amongst the community here that there is little, if any new evidence not known here. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. That means no one knows about it! Maybe there is a diary in some attic somewhere. Who knows. Maybe someone saw something that day, never came forward and took the secret to their grave... Who knows?

If, against almost all odds-- you do posses new evidence, lets see it! Share it! We would throw you a ticker tape parade in Fall River and laud you as our hero!

If your posts are based on your opinions, as I suspect-- then do not expect us to take them as fact and when we don't--- be a big enough boy to act graciously-- and if you can't. Take your ball and go home, OK?

Iv'e said it before and I'll say it again.I just adore Audree:)

theebmonique @ Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:45 pm wrote:

Is there any record that Bowen was ever questioned about what drugs he prescribed for Lizzie?

Robert, do you mean BESIDES what Dr. Bowen testified about concerning the morphine he gave to Lizzie right after the discovery of the murders ?


Tracy...

I meant was Bowen asked whether he had prescribed morphine or any other drugs to Lizzie before the murders.

Also, I checked some sources about typical medical practice in that era. It was quite common for doctors to dispense drugs themsleves. it isn't like today that a doctor writes a prescription, and it is taken by the patient to the pharmacy. Lizzie was from an affluent family and could have frequently had appointments with Bowen. And at such times Bowen could have supplied her with opiates, cocaine, etc. If so, then investigators and reporters would have found out nothing about what drugs Lizzie was taking by asking the local pharmacist. Only she and Bowen would have known, and both may well have kept their mouth shut about it.

Very well said Mdme. VAL'P-M. Thank you.


Tracy..

Wahoo Audrey. I think I know a lot more about Lizzie than you do so don't push it. I'll tell a little at a time, well substantiated, that you havn't figured out yet. But if you (or your buddies) shag me I will never tell.
So right now we stand at I will tell you someday. So cool.
And it's fun doing the room. I try to make humor.
Try not to take things so seriously, Audrey.
Even at work, if it isn't fun then God probably doesn't want you to be doing it.
I try not to tell people what to do, and don't mean to with you, but the Lizzie solution is right in front of your eyes, and do you know for a fact that I've suggested that many times and nobody ever asked me what it is? People are so interested into their own thoughts that they don't see what's really happening. Look at my last post on another site and I bet someone says "Mrs. Kelly was going to the dentist." That's kinda stupid of course, but it shows their thought.
Well - I like you.

You know John...

You certainly don't need me to make a fool out of you....

And I don't write things that I just read or just to read myself.
I can write, would Audrey like to go to Mexico and play in a drum band and eat jolapenios and drink tequila and listen to the Mexican moon and watch fish jump and travelers look at maps, Or go to China and play the violin and eat rice and paint pretty red posters and smile at tourists who think we've been there for a long time and we can tourist to Japan and go sledding on Mount Fuji?
And Audrey can take notes on incidences of Lizzie Borden's trials along the way. How she was so bemused as a child that she had to kill her parents. How she was so mistreated that she had to destroy the guy who sent her to Europe. How that she hated her stepmother so that she lived with her for thirty years and finally chopped her.
How all of the things that we're really thinking now about Lizzie are really stupid.
I'll tell you - ask me.

Audrey @ Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:05 am wrote:You know John...

You certainly don't need me to make a fool out of you....

If you are able to parse out what he wrote into something logically coherent, please let me know what his point is.

I am asking....

So you're not going to runaway with me to Tuscaloosa like you said, Audrey.
Darn.
Well I just have to soldier on and hey, Theebomonique!

I will "name that point" in two letters...BS.


Tracy...

I gotta go but do you remember me telling you about VanGogh?
"if I could get students to think then I would be the worlds greatest teacher." Jacqueline Kennedy said that.

Remember John...

You said you would tell me in two different posts...

I am waiting... Are you going to tell me??

All talk and no post makes john...???


Tracy...

...the center of attention.

I'd rather talk about the case.

You see, we've heard this before: a solution is right under our noses. Someone will tell us if we are worthy. Then they leave.

I think we should get back to the case.

Yes, let's. We have been 'off-topic' for far too long. Back to the drawing board...Lizzie Borden took an axe...

P.S.
Thanks for the push Kat !



Tracy...

prove that she took an axe...

You are right....let me rephrase...Lizzie Borden...


Tracy...

Wow - the smartest thing I'ver ever heard you say Abbey, although I havn't ever listened too close.

Prove that she took an axe.
Remarkable.
John likers Abbey more and more.

Now we're gettijng to the issue. Kat says we're off point - that's true if we're talking thousands of pages of testimony and speculation - lets talk about the axe.
Where did the axe come from - where could it go?

Kat,
did'nt get to say so earlier but that is anawesome pic you posted of sarah and Lizzie. I thought it was neato you have it on your fridge to.It made me look closer at her.yes I indeed thing she looks a little uneven-lopsided. then I did somemore research-keep in mind Im one of the doubters of the drug idea but then I found this....................

and thought.um maybe.just maybe............Ill post the link...

http://www.nida.nih.gov/PDF/DARHW/033-0 ... 0in%201892'

sorry it won't direct link youll have to cut and paste sorry.......

but soooooo very very intresting about opiate use in1892!

Thanks! That is a huge document! It's a dowload. I read some of it. It is certainly eye-opening!!

I picture our Lizzie taking medicine for pain. I never thought that she might use something for *recreational* purposes.
But if she did, she is responsible- for taking it, and for killing.
Otherwise, if it was something else which made her kill- like abuse- she is, in a way, a victim too- and thus not as responsible.

I was wondering if that difference is what might bother people.

The magnet on my fridge is of Lizzie at Newport only. In sepia. They sell them I think at the B&B?

Why are there thousands of victims, supposedly, yet very few patricides?

Kat can we do another poll this time including if we think Lizzie was on drugs at all
and then during the murders?

Well, the "before" part can be like the word defintion of *premeditated.*
It can be just before, like 10 minutes before- but also during.

If you like, you can state your opinion, if it's in between.
Or you can start a new poll.

To be *before* can also include during her period, which ended Wednesday.

I understand what you mean about the wording of the original poll question.

Kat @ Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:00 am wrote:How about a clinical depression?
I talked to a friend today who was born on Lizzie's birthday and she mentioned a theory of Lizzie having a depression.
My friend never had it but thought someone could kill in that state.
I don't know about that but told her I'd offer it up here...

I also have a friend born on her birthday

My mother was born on her birthday.

neat