Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Every time I read that today's law enforcement officials would have handled things more effectively, I think of the JonBenet Ramsey case. Law enforcement in that case did at least as many things wrong as the FRPD did in the Borden case, and the result was much the same. The perp (and I'm pretty sure I know who it was in the Ramsey case, though not in the Borden case) wasn't caught and convicted. Prominent families were involved in both cases, and I think the police were afraid to do their duty.

It's gotten a bit thick wading through all the posts on this thread, what with the creative spelling and grammar that make it difficult to figure out the meaning of some offerings. I'm not altogether sure I understand the theories set forth. However, if "everybody" in Fall River knew the Bordens were going to be killed and acted as accessories before, during and after the fact, that would make this crime unique indeed. What motive(s) did the Fall River citizenry have for acting in such a manner? Was Lizzie so beloved and were Abby and Andrew so detested that all of the neighbors decided to be participants in a murder? Nothing I've read brings me to that conclusion. Did Lizzie buy off the whole town? I doubt that she and Emma together had the means for that.

What on earth is "fecal poison"? I know what "fecal matter" is, but I've never heard of a poison made from it. Given the pollutants in our environment, someone might be able to extract poison from it, but that probably wouldn't have been true in 1892. Nor was Lizzie a chemist.

Has anyone given any thought to what motive Bridget Sullivan would have had? Dr. Bowen? Even Lizzie, for that matter?

Someone mentioned that Thursday, August 4, was chosen because Bridget would be washing windows that day and thus would be outside. Someone else mentioned that Thursday was the normal window-washing day. What's the source for this information? If the Bordens had had a regular day for window-washing, why would Abby and Bridget have had to discuss what Bridget's chore for the day would be? If Bridget's absence from the house was needed, wouldn't it have made more sense to wait until she was actually off the premises? Assuming John Morse wasn't the killer or an accomplice, wouldn't it have made better sense to wait until he was gone for sure?

Much is made of Dr. Bowen's changing his story. As I understand it, innocent people often change their stories in minor ways. It's the guilty person, who has rehearsed a narrative, whose story doesn't change. All of the people who were intimately involved in the Borden case had suffered through a horribly traumatic event. IMHO it's likely their thinking would have been completely muddled, and recalling details accurately would have been beyond their capabilities.

I can't figure out a motive for Dr. Bowen to help Lizzie.
It has always seemed to me that if there was any conspiracy outside the family proper, that someone would have talked.
Maybe people think someone did, but are keeping the secret? But that's another generation of keeping a secret and I don't see how that could be done. The farther away from the *epicenter* the more chance of someone spilling the beans.
Personally, I'm not sure if I include Bridget in this group- or include her a *family* member.

Edisto posts:
Much is made of Dr. Bowen's changing his story. As I understand it, innocent people often change their stories in minor ways. It's the guilty person, who has rehearsed a narrative, whose story doesn't change. All of the people who were intimately involved in the Borden case had suffered through a horribly traumatic event. IMHO it's likely their thinking would have been completely muddled, and recalling details accurately would have been beyond their capabilities.

I agree. I think that could apply to Lizzie's testimony as well. Of course, I still maintain that her memory may have been muddled by morphine as well as trauma. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure many of the days in that house were exactly the same as the one before, so when Lizzie and Bridget are pressed as to the mundane details that preceded the crime, they may be filling in blanks in their memories -- either with what usually happened -- or what may have happened another morning.

As far as providing correct times for what happened that day, I think most people fall into a daily rhythm which can be flexible or fairly rigid depending on their commitment to a fixed schedule -- and most of the participants in this case seem to have had reasonably flexible routines. I'm lucky enough to enjoy that flexibility, too, and often think about that in regard to what people testified about their movements that day.

For example, I do a crossword and check my e-mail pretty much every morning -- but I could not remember with any degree of accuracy what time I did those things this morning or any day last week -- even if I was suspected of a crime and had to account to the minute. I can remember the time I got up because I looked at the clock, but after that, the morning passed and the next time I looked at the clock it was close to noon. I'd done some chores, done a little of the work that pays the bills, researched Bowen's testimonies, and posted on the forum (now there is a timed record!) -- but as to when I was involved in each individual activity or how long they took -- not a clue. But if I was being cross-examined by the district attorney in a murder case, I'm pretty sure I'd try to come up with something -- even if it was just a guess as to what I did, in what order I did it, and how long it took me.

I think Dr. Bowen did the right thing at trial when he testified he could only say that he arrived at the house sometime between eleven and half past eleven. His driver said 11:05, his wife said 11:25. The telegraph was time-stamped 11:32. But Bowen, himself, would have had a lot more on his mind when confronted with the bloodied bodies of his close neighbors than taking note of the time or where everyone was standing when he came in.

One only has to try to build a time-line based on witness statements to see how fallible people's recollections are about when things happened on August 4.

Take Mrs. Churchill, for example. She thought she was back from the store by 11 (W.S., 9) but the clerk at Hudner's said she didn't leave the market until 5 or 10 past. (W.S.,10) And James Hall said she came to his stable at 10:30 to get Thomas Boulds to go for a doctor as Mr. Borden was "badly hurt". Hall is "positive of this, for he looked at his watch". (W.S. 43) So according to his evidence, Andrew was dead before he got home!

Interesting comments, Diana, and truthfull, but the point here is that Dr. Bowen did make the statement that he had seen or arrived when Lizzie was standing at the door, and how would he have even known she was ever standing by the door unless he had actually witnessed it?
The timing is so closely here that it's incredible for the crime to have happened, the crime of Andrew.
The conclusion I get, which I don't like at all, is that Bridget has to be lying when she says she was laying down at 11:00!
The city bells at 11:00 are a very important key, and now I suspect that Lizzie told Bridget something about them, but I still agree with Kat, if Bridget wasn't involved, she probably would have eventually talked.
John Morse probably wouldn't have talked. But Kat's conclusion of a squalker leads directly to another involver who eventually didn't talk.
It was said earlier that Lizzie couldn't have done it herself because of the number of people she had to be prepared to kill, including possibly police and unknown neighbors. So "Lizzie the Lookout" makes more sense, and I don't think she meant for her Father to be killed, that was out of her control.
I'll pump in a little of my own philosophy here, and tell you what I think really happened. When you succom (I don't have my dictionary - the devil has it) to the devil, you have to take the bitter and the sweet. That's exactly what happened to Lizzie and why she accepted it. She wrote her own book for the rest of her life. But I'm sure there was bitter which we will never know.

It's an interesting point, but does it mean anything? Since Lizzie specifically sent for Dr. Bowen, and no other, maybe she was waiting at the screen door as he says?
How many other people are *wrong* if he was correct?

It's really odd to hear the driver give that time, because Lizzie very well could have been standing right at the screen at 11:05, if Bowen came earlier than he was officially called for. She'd just be coming inside from the barn or yard- and if she knew Andrew was dead without advancing to the sitting room, she may never have gone farther into the house after her *return.* Just counted to 100, called Bridget, called over Mrs. Churchill, etc. Thinking about that is odd.

Excellent point Kat... If she did go outside.

Why enter the sitting room? It may have been mere seconds-- but who knows what she did in that time?

She supposedly only put her hat down in the dining room. Since we don't hear anymore about a hat- which may be kept in the dining room most days for all we know- she needn't have done anything at all, staying at the door (sickened?). That might account for her saying Andrew had slippers on when he didn't, and that all she saw was a bloody face- meaning she didn't see Andrew at all- why should she?. She says she didn't enter the room. Someone may have quickly briefed her at the screen door as they left- and maybe she never moved from there. It's a good way to keep clean as well.

I think Kat is the one who is confused>

I don't feel confused. I'm trying to see what Lizzie might have done if she didn't really do anything.

*she pushed open the door- it was not latched* has always bothered me, since Susan brought it up. Another door to push open, not latched, might be the screen door from the inside.

Edisto @ Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:04 pm wrote:
If Bridget's absence from the house was needed, wouldn't it have made more sense to wait until she was actually off the premises? Assuming John Morse wasn't the killer or an accomplice, wouldn't it have made better sense to wait until he was gone for sure?

Lizzie wasn't that stupid, but I don't think she was that smart either. She lacked imagination. What was there for her to say she had been doing really? She couldn't say she was away from the house shopping, or visiting, or whatever. Witnesses would be needed to corroborate that. She was in the barn, that's the best she could do. Pretty flimsy. I don't believe she ever left the house that day, nor intended to.

Seeing as Bridget was a live in maid, when did she usually have time away from her duties to be gone from the house? Would it mesh with a time when Andrew would be gone from the house as well, and not expected back soon? It's easier to kill one by one, than be prepared to kill everyone at once.

Abby and Lizzie were the only ones in the house at the time Abby was killed. Lizzie waited until Bridget had gone upstairs to lay down to kill Andrew. If she was prepared to kill anyone and everyone she had to, she would've killed Bridget as soon as she came in the house after killing Abby. Why leave her alive all that time with the possibility of finding Abby, and interrupting the killing of Andrew?

Why not kill her, wait for Andrew to come home, and then do away with him? Then Morse would be next as he came home. Because there was a reason for them not being killed. First, she had no motive to kill Bridget, or Morse. She didn't gain anything by it. I think she left Bridget alive because if everyone in that house were to be murdered, and Lizzie was the only one left alive with a flimsy alibi about being in the barn, it would've looked even worse for her. If the killer was killing everyone, why spare Lizzie? Why not kill her, and then wait and kill Morse when he came back too? Only the intended victims should be killed, and everyone else had to be left alive, or all roads lead to Lizzie.

***Interesting comments, Diana, and truthfull, but the point here is that Dr. Bowen did make the statement that he had seen or arrived when Lizzie was standing at the door, and how would he have even known she was ever standing by the door unless he had actually witnessed it? ***

i'm not sure how you're putting this together. if it's true that lizzie opened the door for bowen as he approached, that only means she was watching for him. and that she did not go into her fainting routine until after bowen was in charge -- not before. i'm more and more seeing that as her order of business. anyway, this simplifies something -- that when churchill sees her, lizzie is not in a sort of trance -- lizzie is looking for bowen. (i'm trying to "debunk" this scene in the movie.)

it's interesting that this point is controversial.

Allen @ Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:17 pm wrote:



Why not kill her, wait for Andrew to come home, and then do away with him? Then Morse would be next as he came home. Because there was a reason for them not being killed. First, she had no motive to kill Bridget, or Morse. She didn't gain anything by it. I think she left Bridget alive because if everyone in that house were to be murdered, and Lizzie was the only one left alive with a flimsy alibi about being in the barn, it would've looked even worse for her. If the killer was killing everyone, why spare Lizzie? Why not kill her, and then wait and kill Morse when he came back too? Only the intended victims should be killed, and everyone else had to be left alive, or all roads lead to Lizzie.

\


IMO opinion, killing Bridget would have made MORE sense and strengthened her alibi... Some mad man-- no real motive went on a killing spree, killing anyone in his path.... BUT only if she had left the house to establish an alibi. She couldn't get Bridget out of the house (dress goods sale) -- so she had to improvise. She didn't do very well, did she?

Kat @ Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:12 am wrote:It's an interesting point, but does it mean anything? Since Lizzie specifically sent for Dr. Bowen, and no other, maybe she was waiting at the screen door as he says?
How many other people are *wrong* if he was correct?

It's really odd to hear the driver give that time, because Lizzie very well could have been standing right at the screen at 11:05, if Bowen came earlier than he was officially called for. She'd just be coming inside from the barn or yard- and if she knew Andrew was dead without advancing to the sitting room, she may never have gone farther into the house after her *return.* Just counted to 100, called Bridget, called over Mrs. Churchill, etc. Thinking about that is odd.

Trying to figure out who may be *wrong* and who may be *right* between these witnesses as to where Lizzie was when Dr. Bowen came: At the screen door, in the hall, or in the kitchen? Checked Mrs. Churchill, Bridget and Dr. Bowen. Here are their stories, for what it's worth:

Inquest
Mrs. Churchill
130

Q. Before Dr. Bowen came, you came? You came before he did?
A. Yes, we stood in that entry. I went again to find a doctor before he got there.
Q. You got back the second time before Dr. Bowen came?
A. Yes.
........
Prelim
271
Q. Go right on, if you please.
A. I closed the window, and went directly through my house out the front door, and went over to her house, and opened the screen door, and went in. Then she sat on the second stair at the right of the screen door, the back stairs.

Q. The stairs, as I remember the plan, came down, the foot of the stairs is very near the back door?
A. Just as the right of the door as you go in.

Q. She was sitting then opposite where she had been standing?
A. Yes Sir.
......
283
Q. Did there any more conversation take place before Bridget came back, or Dr. Bowen came?
A. Yes, I asked her where her mother was.

Q. Tell us what she said to that, if you please, again.
A. She said she had a note to go see someone that was sick.

Q. Where were you when this took place, were you still right there at the screen door?
A. She sat on the second stair, right there at the door; and I stood by her side.

Q. This time while this conversation was going on?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. I suppose it did not last very long, this talk that you had?
A. I should not think so.

Q. What were you doing, were you fanning her, or was she doing anything but just sitting there?
A. No Sir. I put my hand on her shoulder, or her arm, as I came in.

........

284
Q. Had Bridget returned when you got back?
A. I do not think she had got in there then; she came soon.

Q. Soon after you got there?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Where was Lizzie when you got back?
A. She was on the stairs when I got back.

Q. The same place you left her?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Anybody with her then?
A. No Sir.

Q. What did you do then after you went in?
A. I do not remember. I think she got up and came into the kitchen.

Q. Did she sit down in a chair in the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. How soon after that did Bridget come in, do you think?
A. Soon I think, I do not know how soon.

Q. Very soon was it?
A. Quite soon, yes sir.

Q. Did you at any time fan Lizzie while she was sitting in the chair there?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. When was that?
A. After Miss Russell came.

Q. How soon after Bridget cane did Miss Russell come?
A. Pretty soon.

Q. Did they come in together?
A. I do not remember that.
.....
Trial
363
Q. Well, after you came in there, Lizzie was at the kitchen door or by the stairs--- sitting on the stairs, as I understand you, and then you passed where?
A. I stood there.

Q. What is that?
A. I stood by her side and she sat on the stair. She sat there until I went to find someone to go to get the doctor. When I came back she was sitting on that stair just the same.

Page 364 / i386

Q. You left her and were gone two or three minutes, you said, possibly?
A. I said I didn't think more than five minutes.

Q. Not more than five minutes: I beg your pardon. She was still there?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what did you do as to your movements? Where did you and she go?
A. I think we went into the kitchen.

Q. Did you remain in there?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you go into the dining room at all?
A. Not until Dr. Bowen came.

Q. And after that did you?
A. We followed him into the dining room.

Q. Did Lizzie go into that room?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. She was done in there,---the dining room?
A. Lizzie sat down on the lounge and Bridget stood by---I stood quite near the dining room table, and Bridget stood near the kitchen door, I think, as near as I can remember.

Page 365 / i387

Q. Was either of you fanning her?
A. Not then.

Q. At any time?
A. I fanned her with a newspaper in the kitchen after Miss Russell came.
.....

Prelim
Bridget
28
Q. Where was Miss Lizzie when you came back from Mrs. Bowen's?
A. Where I left her, standing at the door.

Q. At that time when you went out after Dr. Bowen, did you find the screen door locked?
A. No Sir.

Q. Shut up?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did you come back with Miss Russell?
A. Ahead of her.

Q. When you came back, who did you find there then?
A. Dr. Bowen was ahead of me, he stepped out of his carriage as I came up Second street. Dr. Bowen went in ahead of me.

Q. When you got in, who did you find there?
A. I think Mrs. Churchill was in when I got in there.

Q. She is the next door neighbor?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. She was in when you got back?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. What was said when you got back?
A. I cannot tell.

Q. Where was Miss Lizzie when you got back?
A. She was there.

Q. Wherebouts?
A. I could not tell you where, I think she must be in the kitchen; I think she was in the kitchen.

Q. Who else was there besides Mrs. Churchill?
A. That is all I remember, Mrs. Churchill and Dr. Bowen.
.......
Inquest
Dr. Bowen
117
Q. Tell exactly what happened now.
A. I went to the door, and I met them in the hall, I went in the side door, I thought I would get in there quicker, I was so much in a hurry I happened to go that way. I met Miss Lizzie in the hall, and Bridget. I says “Lizzie what is the matter?” I spoke pretty quick.
....
Q. You said “where is he”, what answer did she give?
A. In the sitting room. She beckoned along through the dining room. I went through the dining room to the door between the dining room and the sitting room, that was directly at the head of the sofa. As soon as I got at the door, I could see the whole room, and saw him.
.....

118
[After Bowen returned]
Q. The news had not got around?
A. No Sir. I dont know as I saw anybody going in at that time. Then I went directly to the same side door, and was met there by Mrs. Churchill and Alice Russell, I think, Mrs. Churchill I am sure. One of them, or somebody, I think Mrs. Churchill, said “they have found Mrs. Borden”. I said “where”? She said she was up stairs “you better go up”. Then I went up stairs.
........

121
Q. When you first came, you all came to the side door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where was she standing, exactly?
A. I could not say exactly whether she met me at the end of the entry, or where. I could not say. I have the impression now that she was at the side door, and opened the screen door, and the door was half opened, and ready for me; that is my impression.
Q. Where was Bridget?
A. She was very near. The entry is very short, and she was very near. I could not say exactly.
Q. What was Miss Lizzie’s appearance and manner?
A. Well, she was excited, and --well it is hard to describe it she was somewhat excited; in a hurry for me to come.
.....
Prelim
401
Q. Describe her manner, and where she stood, not her clothing, everything that took place, as near as you can recollect.
A. I could not say whether she was in the side hall or in the kitchen, I think in the hall.
.....

408
Q. You saw Miss Lizzie when you came there?
A. The first time, yes.

Q. Where was she then?
A. I would not swear whether she was just as the edge of the kitchen or in the hall, or at the door I am sure. I remember what I said to her.

Q. You do not remember where she was?

Page 409

A. I do not remember exactly where she was.

Q. Was she alone when you saw her?
A. I think Mrs. Churchill was with her, I am not certain.
.......
Q. Was your memory in a better condition then than it is now?
A. About the same. I do not think it is quite so good now.

Q. Did you say something of this kind, "I met Miss Lizzie in the hall. I says what is the matter Lizzie? I spoke pretty quick. She

Page 410

said I think my father has been stabbed or hurt. I said has there been anybody here. She said not that she knew of. She said she had overheard her father talking loud recently, and was afraid &c" That was so, was it?
A. So far as I remember, as near as I can remember.

kat:

thanks for all the testimony about this particular point in time.

You're welcome.
I don't know the answer. I was under the impression that Lizzie was seated in the kitchen right where the entry hall and kitchen meet, right when Bowen came. That she and Mrs. Churchill had advanced that far into the entryway/hall.
I guess we can't tell from this?

Dr. Bowen may have been simply not thinking correctly when he couldn't remember where everybody was as he entered the Borden home the murder morning, altouugh you'd think it would have been one of those truly trumatic moments for him, such as we remember where we were when one of the space shuttles blew up, and the way everything was around us at that time.
I do think he's very incorrect in his vagueness, because Doctors are generally busy, know much what times things happen, and are constantly looking at their watches. So is he lying about times and places or is he just a bad Doctor.
The point that he's lying can be proven by his far more important observations of the bodies. You don't have to be a forensic scientist to discern from two bloody bodies, one killed from 1 and 1/2 hours to 2 hours before the other which person was killed first.
But why would he lie about that? It wouldn't help him any, he didn't need help unless there are things about him we don't know. It would only help Lizzie, because if Andrew and Abby were killed at the same time, then some looney could have rushed into the housed when Lizzie was in the barn and killed them both.
So if he's trying to help Lizzie, it makes it even more important that he said she was at the screen door when he said he arrived, yet she couldn't have been there. It doesn't matter where he or she really was, it means he was there for some unknown reason earlier, and I suspect he told her to go to the barn for an alibi.
The driver would have no way of knowing what was going on - only that Bowen came and left. What was the driver's exact lengthy statement, or did he even have one?
Did Bowen come and leave and come and leave and come back again?
What did the neighbors say?
In juxt anyway (correct? someone stole my dictionaries) it seems that, as per the topic here, Dr. Bowen may have known that something was going to happen the murder morning and was very close: even if he didn't know that something was going to happen he was very close.

Another interesting point regards Lizzie's origional alibi if she doesn't think her Father was to be killed. Her alibi is that Abby is gone on a note mission. So she just sits around and perhaps has lunch and hangs until Abby's body is found. Since she says she may have been in the cellar while Bridget was outside, there is the chance of a perpetrator. Again, she's probably let off because of no physical evidence, which no matter how you dance around her trial, is the reason she was let go.
Everything goofs up when her Father gets killed, but she handles it, perhaps with some help.
I once stated that I wondered why Dr. Bowen seemed to be the only man which I could see that Andrew really hated. It was just skirted under the rug like a lot of my other statements.
Just for an example, I think it's pretty unlikely that you would yell to "go away" at your family physician, plus Bowen's statements.

i don't see how bowen could have deliberately lied about the difference in abby's body. it was awfully stupid and pointless if he did. i don't see anything sinister in that. it's probably what it sounds like -- that bowen WITHOUT examining abby naturally assumed that they had both been killed at the same time, and from this perspective it looked immediately to him like she had run up the stairs. this is more an indication of bowen's innocence, if anything......this and a few other things are more like an embarrassment to bowen later on.

i would still like to know why bowen could not have seen lizzie in the doorway, or why she could not have opened the door for him, for that matter, as he entered.

that andrew hated bowen -- on the basis that lizzie told alice russell that father was rude to him wednesday morning?

I recall having read that Bridget had an afternoon off during the week. Not sure where I read that; I'll try to find it. At any rate, Lizzie mentioned the yard-goods sale to Bridget, which would indicate that Bridget had some time off during the week to go shopping. I feel sure she didn't work 24/7! If she had, she would have wanted to leave the Bordens' employ long before the murders. We know that she went out in the evenings, apparently as she pleased. Both elder Bordens would probably have been at home after dark. It has always seemed to me that Lizzie (if she was the murderer) picked the very worst possible time to do the deed -- the time when she was most likely to be discovered.

With regard to Andrew's "hatred" for Dr. Bowen, I think Andrew probably felt ill and crotchety on Wednesday and wasn't very favorably disposed toward anyone with the possible exception of John Morse. I seem to remember that Dr. Handy wasn't exactly a favorite of Andrew's. Maybe he just didn't trust doctors in general.

I don't think the issue was skirted, but it was partly refuted by the statement that Hiram Harrington was the man *most disliked* by Andrew- maybe as family he was more disliked by Andrew than anyone. He either wasn't allowed in the Borden house or refused himself to enter.
At least Bowen was allowed in.

I don't think that Bowen was, Kat. If you recall Abby, although sick had to go over to Bowen's house for an exam, rather than rely on Bowen for a house call in 1892. And when Bowen tried to come across the street to examine the other Bordens, Andrew and Lizzie, Bowen was told to "go away."
Perhaps I could find that in type but you can probably find it easier, and if you don't want to, let me know and I will.
Also, I support the members here, and their thoughts, as long as they seem correct, but I don't ever remember anything at all involving Dr. Dolan and Andrew, nor why Andrew would necessarily distrust him, and it was long ago determined that if Bridget washed the windows weekly as at least one witness says she did, I don't remember anything else about Bridget's Thursdays that gave her the afternoon off. It seemed by the only speak of Bridget that we have, that if she had her work done, and the fixed things to do were accomplished, such as dinner, she pretty much did as she pleased.
This is all pretty interesting because what if Dr. Bowen is the skirt chaser here, and had the deed done? He may well have had the money for the hit which Lizzie didn't. Other things, especially with what happened in and around the house would make sense then. Such as why did the Bowen's apper to be watching the Borden home, yet didn't see the unknown carridge parked there? How did Mrs. Bowen get in touch with Dr. Bowen when she knew there was a catastrophy? How could Dr. Bowen get there so quickly - like within 5 minutes? Why was Mrs. Bowen asked to leave after she got there? Why did Dr. Bowen not search the house? If they were all telling the truth, a murderer could still be lurking there. Lizzie said, according to Dr. Bowen, that she saw nobody leave, so it's probably a 50-50 the murderer is still there.
If you really think about the Bowen stuff it's absurd. Do you think that any Doctor, or perhaps anyone, a man especially, would leave a violent crime scene in the hands of four defensiveless women, the bludgeoning crime being delivered within probably the last ten minutes, to deliver a telegram to a relative of a relative? Especially when the unknown assailant hadn't even been looked for.
And the saying by Dr. Dolan, "oh come in, Abby, I think it was, and look at Mr. Borden," is too beyond credulance.
It would appear to me that he was on some kind of bad drugs
I think he was lucky, but I think he was very involved. I don't recall what Dolan said about Bowen, but Dolan might have suspected him as well.

Who said Andrew didn't trust Dr. Dolan? I wasn't even aware that Andrew was acquainted with Dr. Dolan or ever had any business with him. Also, I don't think Dr. Dolan asked Mrs. Churchill to view Andrew's body. I believe it was Dr. Bowen who made that rather odd request. (Oh, and BTW, it's quite unlikely that anybody asked "Abby" to view Andrew's body. She was lying dead upstairs, remember?)

Kat's the one who's confused? Nooooo...I don't think so!

At least Bowen was allowed in.

--Kat

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:26 am    Post subject:  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think that Bowen was, Kat. If you recall Abby, although sick had to go over to Bowen's house for an exam, rather than rely on Bowen for a house call in 1892. And when Bowen tried to come across the street to examine the other Bordens, Andrew and Lizzie, Bowen was told to "go away."
Perhaps I could find that in type but you can probably find it easier, and if you don't want to, let me know and I will.

--John (partial)

Inquest
Bowen
115
A. I lived across the street from Mr. Borden twenty years.
Q. You undoubtedly were well acquainted with the family?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And intimately so?
A. Well, yes, neighbors.
Q. You were their family physician?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They did not need much doctoring?
A. No Sir.
.......
Q. You had not been called that week to the family?
A. No Sir, I had not been called. I went over to see them
.......

116
...I thought if they did not call me I would go over and make a friendly call. I went over after breakfast. I think Bridget let me in, I am very sure it was the front door. I says “Mr. Borden, what is the matter?” He looked at me and wanted to know if anybody had sent for me. I told him no, Mrs. Borden was over, I thought I would just come over and see. He seemed well enough then. He said he felt a little heavy, and did not feel just right, but said he did not think he needed any medicine. I did not urge him at all, of course, and I went home. I did not think much about it. ...

.............

Q. Did you see Lizzie that morning?
A. She was just going up stairs as I went in the front door; I thought it was her, I am not quite sure.
__________

Prelim
Bowen
Page 408

Q. You went over to the house after breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. You were not called?
A. I went of my own accord.

Q. From the symptoms she had described, you felt somewhat alarmed?
A. Yes Sir, so many of them; not because they sent for me.

Q. When you got there, who did you see?
A. I think that Bridget Sullivan let me in at the front door; I am not certain, I think so. I am very sure that Miss Sullivan let me in.

Q. Who did you see?
A. I saw Mr. Borden.

Q. You talked with him?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. How did he appear to be?
A. He was lying down then. As I went in, of course he sat up on the sofa.
...........

Q. That is the last time that you know of that you saw Mr. or Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. You did not call upon them afterwards?
A. No Sir.

Q. That call was voluntary?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. You were not sent for to come over. Dr. Bowen, you say Mrs. Churchill was there when you came in?
A. Yes Sir. In my first testimony I did not think she was, but I am satisfied now that she was.
_______

Trial
Bowen
Q. During the time that you have lived at that house Mr. Borden and his family lived in the house opposite you?
A. Yes, sir, most of the time.

Q. Substantially so?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you been the family physician for some time?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. For how long, sir?
A. I should say a dozen years probably.

Q. During that time have you had social as well as business, --- professional relations?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you at all visited at the house?
A. Very seldom except on business.

Q. What has been your dealing with them largely, --- professional or social?
A. About equal.

Q. About equal?
A. Yes, sir.

--Perhaps you are thinking of Bowen not being a good friend of Andrew- and this phrase where he says he doesn't visit often.
*Visit* meant having a get-together- dropping by and sitting talking.
I don't think Dr. Bowen was quite on *visiting* terms with Andrew. But he has been invited into the house- whereas Hiram Harrington was not.
Mrs. Dr. Bowen seems more friendly with Abby than Dr. Bowen is with Andrew, admitted.

Yes, Edisto, I did get Dr. Bowen, Dr. Dolan, and Dr. Handy mixed up. I guess I never knew Andrew had anything to do with Dr. Handy, but possibly.
Isn't Miss Churchill's name Abegail, and didn't Bowen call for Abby to come look at Andrew?
I think that's the way I recall it.
Kat is never confused - she knows I was just kidding her.
These are just tons of side baggage to the Borden crime though, If Bowen was involved it would most likely be beyond proof now, but it may matter that he was.
I know I've read that Andrew was irate when he learned that Abby had gone to see Bowen for her ailment, and he said, "my money shan't pay for it," and when the Dr. came over, the Dr. was told to "go away."
The source could be incorrect, but I know I read that.
So far what we have is Bowen's view of the encounter, but I also remember Lizzie's stating how embarrased she was to miss Russell.
I'm glad that we had a little discourse here, Edisto, because now I see the problem, and I'm happy with the solution.

Bowen must have seen Abby"s body - does anyone know for sure that he didn't?

I don't ever recall that Dr. Bowen was told to just *go away.*
Mrs. Churchill's first name is Adelaide. And Bowen asked her if she wanted to see Andrew's body but she declined. She said she had seen Andrew that morning and he had looked nice. She probably wanted to remember him that way.
That has happened to me. When my neighbor was sick I offered to visit him in the hospital (offered, because my neighbor's wife knew what a trial that would be for me)- and she declined. She said he looked terrible, having lost a lot of weight and he wouldn't want me to see him like that.

It was Alice Russell's letter to the prosecution very near the beginning of the trial which recounted what she could recall of what Lizzie told her Wednesday night while visiting. That is the source for the comment that Lizzie was mortified at how Andrew treated Bowen Wednesday morning, and the "my money shan't pay for it" comment. It is in the Knowlton Papers.
It is Lizzie telling Alice and Alice writing it in a letter.
It's not necessarilly what happened, nor is it testimony.
Lizzie went upstairs when Bowen came over so how can she tell what happened between Bowen and Andrew?
Bowen said he didn't think about it again- meaning it was no longer important- this meeting with Andrew.

I was thinking lately of these relationships- Andrew and Bowen, Abby and Mrs. Dr. Bowen. As I noted earlier, I think Mrs. Dr. Bowen (and her mother Mrs. Miller) were good friends to Abby. I don't think that would be the case if Dr. Bowen was carrying on with Lizzie in any way, shape or form.

How old was Dr. Bowen at the time of the murders?
In my mind I'm thinking an old man, but was he
a virile young man instead? ya never know what
couldve gone on in the neighborhood..

Bowen was 20 years older than Lizzie. He was also almost 20 years older than Dolan. Which makes me think about Kat's comment as to how Bowen felt when he was reduced to taking notes for Dolan on the day of the murders.

I believe he said "Addie."
Well, my fa pau again!
I goofed up in third grade too, but I corrected it in seventh grade by going back and beating up the teacher. She was a tough old gal though.
On a lighter note, are we not looking at some issues here? If Bowen took notes for Dolan, did Dolan say that the crimes were committed at about the same time? What did the notes say? If Bowen testified adversly towards those notes then, as I've suspected and I think Kat has too, it's a clear lie.
Bowen's wife is probably more interesting to know about than Bowen, and if Bowen has any relatives living today, especially near Fall River, but anywhere.
Also important to know about would be why Dolan happened by that day. I know someone said it was a possible route home for him, though indirect, and it was near dinner time, but, and I don't like "what ifs," what if Dolan came there to control the crime scene? Dolan may have even said why he took that route in his notes, for Doctors note just about everything except the bill which they leave to nurses to figure out.
And my origional point was, though I mixed up Dr. Handy with Dr. Dolan, what did Dr. Handy ever have to do with Andrew?
It sounds to me like Dr. Dolan had time on his hands and he hadn't taken up golf which would keep him out of trouble.

Re: "Bridget And The Windows Again," Bridget is inconveniently inside when Andrew comes home.
If Lizzie really did it, and wanted Andrew killed, why prompt him to go out by asking him to go to the post office? Of course all we have is Lizzie's testimony there, but if Andrew was ill, it seems it would be easy to keep him inside. Why couldn't Lizzie go to the post office?????

Re: "Mrs. Churchill and the Parlour Window"
There are several flaws in this case. Here's one:
Morse said he heard Mrs. Borden ask Bridget to wash the windown Thursday, yet Bridget said she ( Mrs. Borden) asked her to wash them after Morse had left.
There aren't a couple conclusions here - it is cut!
For some reason Morse knew the windows were going to be washed on Thursday.
This is one point that could be made as a given.
Even if he left after he heard the request to Bridget, it would be a given.
So we can definately say that when Morse left on the murder morning, he expected that the windows would be washed that morning by Bridget.
And there it is! Another monster clue! This is the biggest clue of the entire Lizzie crime - just read above!

Re: "Mrs. Churchill and the Parlour Window"

Is it just me, or did Kat already create a thread for that particular aspect of this case ?


Tracy...

John said he was only going to post on this topic from now on. So I guess he is referring to other threads here, to respond.

I don't know why Lizzie couldn't go to the post office herself. I've been asking that question for a long time. Andrew could stay home, rest up, and be killed while Bridget was out washing windows and Lizzie would have an alibi.
Maybe she was needed to direct traffic in the house, murder morning?

Why send Andrew out is a good question.
Maybe after Abby was killed there was a *meeting* and then it was decided that Andrew would die?

Oh..ok, I get it now.

So, If Lizzie stayed home to 'direct traffic', that would lean toward the idea that killing Andrew was not planned at the beginning ?

I am not sure why Uncle John would have known that Thursday was going to be window washing day unless he was in on the planning of the 'event'...?


Tracy...

re: "Bridget and the Windows Again"
If you read back, a long time ago I posted that the reason the crime was done on Thursday was because Bridget would be washing windows. Now the windows may be up or down while she's washing them on the inside, but while she is washing them on the outside they will all be closed, deafining any noise factor. This, of course, deals with only the killing of Abby.

re: "Mrs. Churchill and the Parlor Windows"
The germaine question here is, where was Uncle John when Lizzie 'came down?'
Was she asked that question, I can't remember that she was, but maybe.
If Uncle John was still around, why would he be when he testified that he had left earlier? This is the major clue, and just because Uncle John said he rode trains and stuff, there really were no witnesses. I think if I let him on my train in a thirty year old suit, and he smelled like horse manure, I'd remember him.
So what if Uncle John never left the Borden's that morning except to get to his relatives, which with a ride would take about ten minutes? And what if blood was thicker than water for John, and he could have wanted, or gone along with, a plan to kill Abby?
Did any neighbors see Uncle John leave?
Why would he come back?
Because blood is thicker than water?

I agree John, something is fishy about Morse and
his alibi of remembering the numbers of the conductors on street car. Blood IS thicker than
water, and if Lizzie contacted him for help, there he
was to help his neice. Remember he was living with
Butchers at the time.

Thanks, Nancie, I agree.
Not just with Uncle John, but all of the principals stories sound fishy. Including Lizzie, Dr. Bowen, Bridget, Uncle John, and even Mrs. Dr. Kelly. That's what led me to believe, initially, that a lot of people thought that, "something was going to happen."
Anyone of them can be taken as a quick example, but lets try Bridget, since she comes to mind. Now if you were quickly awakened from a nap, and told someone had been bludgeoned on the couch downstairs from you, what would your first touughts be? To get outta Dodge? That's what I'd think. Instead Bridget is concerned about other things, and uncaring for hers or Lizzie's safety.
Sounds to me like Bridget knew that something was going to happen, but probably not sure when, and when it does happen she just tries to cover her own fanny by being the good servant.
Other examples (which you can probably think up for yourself) if you're interested.

Bowen's actions are even more bizarre, and lead to only one conclusion. Bowen arrives as is perhaps predetermined, but actually leaves almost immediately, and sends a telegram to Emma. He in fact did that! Now in spite of the fact that it defies all logic to leave four women alone in a house that hadn't been adequately even searched for a maniac (a brutal crime being committed within the prior ten or fifteen minutes,) he had to send that telegram because the plan went awry and Andrew was dead, and Lizzie told Bowen all was cool because she knew the killer was gone, but Emma had to know that the plan was screwed. There is evidence that Bowen then went in search of Uncle John too, which would make sense, especially if Lizzie wasn't sure Uncle John was coming back. There is also evidence that Bowen was seen between 11:00 and 11;30 with an unknown person in his carridge, "driving fast." We'll probably never know who or what that was all aouut.
So how involved was Bowen? Money, sex? Two druggies (he and Lizzie)?
There's two parts of stories, and it's not surprising that this crime has never been solved, because that's the type of informatin which is being relied upon.
Did Dr. Bowen try to cover his backside ex post facto? Maybe. I think too little has been made of Lizzie's asking Mrs. Dr. Bowen to leave on the murder morning. She couldn't have smelled that bad compared with the rest of them. Yet in spite of that egrarious social slight, Dr. Bowen continues to kowtow to Lizzie, giving her prescription drugs which he really only is aware of the dosage of. For him to say he prescribed "brome caffein" initially is really a joke, for it's like Alka-Seltzer without the aspirin, but it sounds good. So I suspect that she was taking much more medication, and he wasn't saying how much. He was alone with her when either of them wanted them to be alone, and what did they discuss? The horrors of her now being without a family? Neither Lizzie or Dr. Bowen seems very concerned about that.
Dr. Bowen seems much more concerned about "covering," by hanging around. It could have been just stupidity - if he was giving her dope it would be bad in this particular situation. It could have been more and it would have climaxed one morning.

John your comments are astute. Were you on the
forum when "Gramma" was posting? There are many scenerios that make much more sense than
the "facts" as we know them. I enjoy your contributions and insights.

John, you are so right with your comments on Bowen. He was a physician, and physicians don't go into a room where there is someone lying there helpless and presume she has fainted without examining what has happened. A physician wouldn't walk away and out of the room when there might be something he could do, like see if she has choked, has had a heart attack, has fallen, etc. When he later sees blood he would check a pulse and see if there is any life left so he could then administer some kind of aid. It's just too weird. He wouldn't be going out on the street to send a telegram when anyone else could do that- he would be available with his professional know how to help Lizzie if she felt faint (or anyone
else getting shocky) He would, as the only man there at the time,stay around to protect the women. Something else was going on that we will probably never know about.

Thanks for your support, Nancie and Angel, I've had very little of that on here I guess I'm considered a rogue, and I havn't thought about Lizzie for a while, so I have to relocate (is that a word?) my mind to her. Your ideas are V correct - Bowen was a professional who was for some reason stymied.
Now we could come up with the quash answer (is quash a word? - somebody stole my dictionaries) that Bowen was flabbergasted. In real world, no Doctor is flabbergasted - they go through junk in med school that woud, and does, feint out half the class. So Dr. Bowen probably wasn't flabbergasted. So what was he?
He was probably dumfounded. Probably more that the could have happened than that it happened. No dufus is a Doctor. It's easy to say that Dr. Bowen just was "out of it" when he saw the bodies, but that doesn't really make sense since none of the "normal - not Doctors" people around were insensible. So Doctor bowen, if he errs, it is because he is calculating. So now we've caught Dr. Bowen in a clear lie. He said he believed that Andrew and Abby had been killed at about the same time. That's a concrete lie, and as I can see, and I've been in this forum for a while, that from all the verbage which has been presented, that one fact, that Dr. Bowen had lied, if it was accepted by this forum as truth (that he lied) would be about the only absolute detection that this forum has ever accomplished.
They mean well, but they don't want to solve any crimes, and that's cool by me - I'll just comment along.

Re: "Andrew Wasn't Dead"
Most interesting is that once Lizzie sent for a Doctor, even though none was available, one showed up within five minutes, and another within twenty, and that one had driven by about at the time the crime happened. Golf course must have been closed.

John, "quash" is a word, I use it in my scrabble games all the time. Bowen is another subject.
I'm leery on him. But on this forum I think we have
agreed on a lot more than that, stick around Bud,
I've learned a great deal here and so will you.

Thanks for your response, Nancie.
Firstly, my name isn't Bud, I call you Nancie, and not Fox or something.
Second, I doubt that this forum knows much of anything about the Borden killings, other than they are probably experts regarding the schematics, and know who was alive at the time of the murders. As far as who was dead and walked afterwords, I've seen enough to know that none of them has a clue.
So you tell your pal "Bud," right now what did Uncle John say about the cellar, and it will interest us all.
I give out clues, and this is one - hey by the way u cool Babe.

Wow - Steph is cute!

Re: "Andrew Wasn't Dead,"
I go along with Edisto. It would be a lot easier for Lizzie to hide the weapon if she never had it.
Lets say Lizzie killed her Father. Why call Bridget? No one was around. Why clean up and hide in ten minutes when she could take probably fifty minutes and do a better job? Still, if she cleaned up and hid in ten minutes, she did an excellent job. So excellent that there's no way she could have accomplished it.
How much time does it take just for a woman to look into a mirror and check her hair?
She had to do that.
Would she take off her dress to make sure there was no blood on the back?
She had to do that.
What if there was blood drips or splatters? She would have to clean them.
She had to do that.
The same for her shoes and stockings.
She had to do that.
She had to all this time control the two doors of the house to make sure no one entered.
She had to do that.
She had to dispose of the murder weapon so it wouldn't be found for over a hundred years.
She had to do that.
She had to chill her mind and call Bridget and send Bridget away and call to neighbors and talk to Doctors all within the space of fifteen minutes to half an hour.
She had to do that.
Impossible.

Just straightening this out a bit:
Dr. Bowen was the one to send home Mrs. Dr. Bowen.
I think he wanted his dinner ready.
He did leave to go eat and returned so he didn't just *hang around.* He was confident in leaving to go home at dinner.
Bromo caffeine is more of a drug than has been explained here on this thread.
He did not personally administer the drugs to Lizzie- and only saw her take a medicine twice.
I think we can rely upon this as Emma and Alice were with Lizzie and could easily tell what the practice was in Lizzie taking medicine.

Trial
327
Q. I understand you to say on Friday you directed that the bromo caffeine be given?
A. No, sir, Thursday.

Q. Not on Friday. You prescribed a second dose and took over from your office a bottle of it with directions how to be taken. I wish to know if, after that, you had occasion to prescribe for her on account of this mental distress and nervous excitement?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was it?
A. Friday.

Q. The next day?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was the prescription or medicine the same as the other?
A. It was different.

Q. What was it?
A. Sulphate of morphine.

Q. Well, what is commonly called morphine?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You directed morphine to be taken?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. In what doses?
A. One-eighth of a grain.

Q. When?
A. Friday night, at bed-time.

Q. The next day you changed that?
A. I did not change the medicine, but doubled the dose.

Q. That was on Saturday?
A. On Saturday.

Q. Did you continue the dose on Sunday?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you continue it Monday?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And on Tuesday?
A. Yes, sir.

......
328
Q. I ask you about the morphine that you were giving her and you tell me on Friday you gave one-eighth of a grain, which is the ordinary dose, I understand, mild dose, and on Saturday you doubled it, you gave it, sent it, and she had it on Monday and Tuesday, and how long did she continue to have it?
A. She continued to have that all the time she was in the station house.

Q. After her arrest, was it not?
A. And before.

Q. In other words she had it all the time up to the time of her arrest, the hearing and while in the station house?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. So that if before the arrest, she was one, two, or three days before the private inquest, she was there when she had been given for several days this double dose of morphine?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. I suppose physicians well understand the effect of morphine on the mind and on the recollection, don't they?

Page 329

A. Supposed to, yes, sir.

Q. Is there any question about it?
A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know whether she had ever had occasion before to have morphine prescribed for her, as far as you know?
A. I don't remember that she had.

Q. Does not morphine given in double doses to allay mental distress and nervous excitement somewhat effect the memory and change and alter the view of things and give people hallucinations?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. There is no doubt about it, is there?
A. No, sir.

MR. ADAMS. I have no further question.


RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.


Q. (By Mr. Moody.) How many times did you personally see her take the medication?
A. Not more than twice, I think.

Q. When were those two times?
A. Between one and two in the afternoon, of Thursday.

Q. And that was bromo caffeine?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Is bromo caffeine a medicine which has a tendency to create hallucinations a week or so after it has been taken?
A. No, sir.

--The *driving fast* letter is in The Knowlton Papers, letter #113. Supposedly Bowen was seen in his carriage driving fast at 10:45, with a young man- but Bowen's driver was described as such, wasn't he? Anyway, inferring he was with a stranger rather than his driver is a bit of a subjective leap.

Thank you for that information Kat ! I was particularly interested in the part about Dr. Bowen not always seeing Lizzie take the bromo caffeine or the morphine he prescribed. Could she have had access to the rx's and have taken an extra dose when no one was watching ? I do not think she was an addict by any means, but I am just wondering if maybe under the circumstances Lizzie thought, "...if one is good...two is BETTER." Or could the meds have affected her in such a way that she forgot she had already taken a dose...and took another ? Thus maybe an explanation for Lizzie's seemingly 'confused' state ?


Tracy...

I think all these posts surely make sense, and I certainly agree, that the Bordens were killed with banannas. Then the murderer just ate the weapons.
On a lighter note, I'm not sure what the parlour has ever had to do with the crimes, other than being a room in that particular house. Nor do I see the Borden's image of Bridget being of importance unless you may think she was so tired of their something attitudes she did away with them - why didn't Bridget kill Lizzie then too?
On a cursory reading, Bridget's trial answers sound like she is lying, while others, including Dr. Bowen and Lizzie sound truthfull.
Bridget might be lying because she didn't know what exactly happened, and is sponging, but referring back to David Kent's book, all events could not have happened in the time frame from Andrew arriving home to Lizzie's wake up call to Bridget and her missions.
So if Bridget is lying, then she could be lying about being in bed at 11:00 which could throw the whole event into synch.
If Bridget was never in bed, but was maybe sitting on the hall stairs shuddering when the 11:00 bell rang, then it would make more sense.
The statement, "Oh Miss Lizzie, where was you," rings true, but other parts of her testimony seem to have to be gotten out, or that she has pat answers.
So if, now all three occupants of the house testimony is questionable ( occupants still alive - see previous posts by many for Dr. Bowen and Lizzie) then some form of conspiracy has to be suspected, and the reasons behind that conspiracy have been suggested, but will probably never be known.
Should you analyze a crime, especially in such great depth as is being done here, and never come to a conclusion?
Conclusions are bricks which build kind of a little house that traps guilty people and sends them to the cross bars motel, and more.