Lizzie Borden Society Forum

That's interesting DOUG: Though, if it is her, she best keep silent, at least till her book comes out. Sell more books. If it is her, we will swarm her like killer bees till we suck her dry of information.

I like the cover, very conservative with the "In you face" photo of Lizzie. I LOVE THAT PHOTO. It's like she is saying "Yea, yea, that's right, I killed them, what ya goin to do about it?"

Thanks for the great photo HARRY. Can anyone make out what house that is in the little circle above Lizzie's head???

And if that is our Karen, "As your new agent Karen, don't do it till our profits start coming in."

Thanks for the information on the new book. I pre-ordered it from Amazon as soon as I read that!


Karen Chaney did join the forum in February. I've re-produced her first post below.

murder1 @ Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:39 pm wrote:Hi,

I too am a "newbie," just joined today. I am really excited to be a part of this wonderful group. I am a crime historian living in Cambridge. I wrote my Master's thesis at Harvard Extension on the Parkman murder (1849) with the late Dr. William Gienapp. I have also published on the Parkman case and the Mary Anne Bickford murders here in Boston. Commonwealth Editions asked me to write a short book on Lizzie, scheduled for release this June!

I look forward to lively discussions and hopefully I can add something meaningful to the discussion.

Sincerely,

Karen

I had a lovely lunch with a theatre writer and columnist named Peter Filichia last weekend. We've had a long e-mail friendship, but I nearly never get to speak with him at the yearly Tony Award weekend cocktail party we both attend (and which I have to miss this year due to my brother's wedding).

Anyway, we went from discussing the Christopher McGovern musical about Lizzie to the subject itself, and he was fascinated by the little twists and turns of the Borden affair.

I've bought him the Geary book, which I think is the perfect intro to the crimes. I will tell him that the preface is fictional - that the book is NOT based on the unpublished memoirs of one of Lizzie's contemporaries.

Does anyone consider a comic book treatment of this case to be a "book" in the usual definition of that word?
Of course, that may be best for some.

Yes

Angel @ Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:11 pm wrote:Yes

Are you violating copyrights again? You little devil!

Bob Gutowski @ Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:45 pm wrote:I've bought him the Geary book, which I think is the perfect intro to the crimes. I will tell him that the preface is fictional - that the book is NOT based on the unpublished memoirs of one of Lizzie's contemporaries.

Good choice, Bob. The illustrations are fantastic. Contains a few errors but all in all a fair treatment of the case. Wish I could draw that well.

Harry @ Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:33 pm wrote:

Bob Gutowski @ Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:45 pm wrote:I've bought him the Geary book, which I think is the perfect intro to the crimes. I will tell him that the preface is fictional - that the book is NOT based on the unpublished memoirs of one of Lizzie's contemporaries.

Good choice, Bob. The illustrations are fantastic. Contains a few errors but all in all a fair treatment of the case. Wish I could draw that well.

Does the fairness result from using the theory in Arnold Brown's book?
Very simply, if Lizzie didn't do it, then there must be an Unknown Subject.
Arthur Conan Doyle's "Sherlock Holmes" said whenever the probable isn't the solution, then the improbable must be investigated. Or was that fiction too?

Bob Gutowski @ Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:45 pm wrote:...
I've bought him the Geary book, which I think is the perfect intro to the crimes. I will tell him that the preface is fictional - that the book is NOT based on the unpublished memoirs of one of Lizzie's contemporaries.

But how can you claim that when you know that the memoirs of Ellan Eagan and Henry Hawthorne were the basis for Arnold Brown's book?
Does the back cover still show the two people correctly found 'not guilty' but considered 'guilty' by the corporate propaganda organs?

no please stop stop can't take this anymoea do U serve tea here?

RayS @ Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:50 am wrote:

Bob Gutowski @ Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:45 pm wrote:...
I've bought him the Geary book, which I think is the perfect intro to the crimes. I will tell him that the preface is fictional - that the book is NOT based on the unpublished memoirs of one of Lizzie's contemporaries.

But how can you claim that when you know that the memoirs of Ellan Eagan and Henry Hawthorne were the basis for Arnold Brown's book?
Does the back cover still show the two people correctly found 'not guilty' but considered 'guilty' by the corporate propaganda organs?

Memoirs?

Where can I purchase Ellen and Henry's memoirs?




Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

memoir
One entry found for memoir.
Main Entry: mem·oir
Pronunciation: 'mem-"wär, -"wor
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French memoire, from memoire memory, from Latin memoria
1 : an official note or report : MEMORANDUM
2 a : a narrative composed from personal experience b : AUTOBIOGRAPHY -- usually used in plural c : BIOGRAPHY
3 a : an account of something noteworthy : REPORT b plural : the record of the proceedings of a learned society
- mem·oir·ist /-is

I remember Arnold Brown's book saying it was based on the notebooks from Lewis "Pete" Peterson. So you can get in touch with him and offer him your money. (Assuming he'll fall for that line.)

So where is that reward money today? Have you sent it to Stefani, the moderator of this forum?
Why not? What excuse do you have?

Audrey is right. I am deleting my post because someone as rude as RayS does not deserve any attention.

RayS @ Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:34 pm wrote:I remember Arnold Brown's book saying it was based on the notebooks from Lewis "Pete" Peterson. So you can get in touch with him and offer him your money. (Assuming he'll fall for that line.)

So where is that reward money today? Have you sent it to Stefani, the moderator of this forum?
Why not? What excuse do you have?

There is no point in sending it.... A person would have a better chance of proving the moon is made of green cheese than proving Arnold Brown's wild theory.

I may as well leave it in my own account, drawing interest.... Of course if you have new evidence Ray, because Brown certainly did NOT, please share it with us...

Audrey @ Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:38 pm wrote:

RayS @ Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:34 pm wrote:I remember Arnold Brown's book saying it was based on the notebooks from Lewis "Pete" Peterson. So you can get in touch with him and offer him your money. (Assuming he'll fall for that line.)

So where is that reward money today? Have you sent it to Stefani, the moderator of this forum?
Why not? What excuse do you have?

There is no point in sending it.... A person would have a better chance of proving the moon is made of green cheese than proving Arnold Brown's wild theory.

I may as well leave it in my own account, drawing interest.... Of course if you have new evidence Ray, because Brown certainly did NOT, please share it with us...

OK, you admit you are prejudiced and can't handle a fact. If you read with understanding, you would know that I never said anything about "new evidence" either.
Regarding the moon, the landing in 1969 told what the moon is made of; you should look it up. It is dishonest to compare a physical fact to a condition that existed over 100 years ago!!!

Also, I noticed that you have NOT tried to get in touch w/ Lewis Peterson and inquire about getting a copy of his notes. WHY NOT?
If you have the money (and the time) you should be able to do a better job on this memoir. Why not?

Pardon me, but Ray, where I come from it is poor manners to speak to other people, especially women this way.

Is this how you speak to people in person as well?

I started this topic line searching for information on best books. If you have an opinion on that I'd appreciate it. If not...

So far, William, I've read only Speiring's, Radin's, Lincoln's and Brown's.

My favorite is Radin's only because he seem's to treat Lizzie in a fair manner. I don't dig too much on his "Bridget did it" theory but I like the way he treated Lizzie. And it is an interesting read.

Lincoln's would be in second place with Speiring's in third. The best thing about his book are the "clear photos." I love good photos.

Brown's I read once and couldn't get up enough steam to read it a second time. Maybe one day. His theory is a little too far out there and I haven't seen any proof but then the other books don't provide proof for their theories either. Brown's theory may turn out to be right but I need the proof before I am convinced, of this book or ANY other.

If Bill Borden was the killer, and was skilled with a hatchet, then why were the wounds so shallow?? Some of the wounds hardley broke the surface of Abby's scalp. Some of those wounds could have been made worse if you had dropped the hatchet on her. I have a duplicate of Lizzie's handless hatchet and it is heavy. A man skilled in the use of a hatchet is going to do some major damage big time! I still think the killer was a woman.

Those are the four I've read so far. Dying to buy more though.

-1bigsteve (o:

Sorry, "Debug Mode."

Sorry "Debug Mode"

W Brayton Cook @ Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:29 pm wrote:Pardon me, but Ray, where I come from it is poor manners to speak to other people, especially women this way.

Is this how you speak to people in person as well?

I started this topic line searching for information on best books. If you have an opinion on that I'd appreciate it. If not...

Your quote sounds like something from a Hollywood film. Was it "The Quiet Man", "The Searchers", or "The Shootist"?
Typing msgs does not have the feedback of a face-to-face conversation, or even a telephone (vocal sounds).
But you haven't specified the "poor manners" you object to. You also haven't stated where you come from?
Do you have some relation to "Audrey"?
Why haven't you objected to the comments that are not part of this topic?
WHAT are your comments regarding the "best book"? Was this asked just to create a controversy? And if so, to what purpose?
I will admit to reading and liking mystery novels w/ courtroom scenes. You can even find some history books that have actual dialogue from real trials.

1bigsteve @ Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:50 pm wrote:So far, William, I've read only Speiring's, Radin's, Lincoln's and Brown's.
...
Brown's I read once and couldn't get up enough steam to read it a second time. Maybe one day. His theory is a little too far out there and I haven't seen any proof but then the other books don't provide proof for their theories either. Brown's theory may turn out to be right but I need the proof before I am convinced, of this book or ANY other.

If Bill Borden was the killer, and was skilled with a hatchet, then why were the wounds so shallow?? Some of the wounds hardley broke the surface of Abby's scalp. Some of those wounds could have been made worse if you had dropped the hatchet on her. I have a duplicate of Lizzie's handless hatchet and it is heavy. A man skilled in the use of a hatchet is going to do some major damage big time! I still think the killer was a woman.
-1bigsteve (o:

Congratulations on your reading. That contrasts to other members of this group who are long on "personalities" and short on objective comments.

Brown is the only non-professional writer in this group, and his book was edited down to 300 pages from 1100 (?).

Your objection about the "shallow wounds" is a good question. Did Brown cover this? Is a human skull easy to puncture? (I don't know, or the emotional state of the killer.)

Just keep an open mind. Sullivan's book should be available in your library, it may even be in print. Pearson's "Trial of LB" has long been out of print. Given its "literary hoax" charge, libraries may not care to stock it.

The "Virginia Kirkus Reviews" comment on published books. I think Libraries use this as a guide for deciding to buy books. This may be why Arnold Brown's book is in your library, but not Dave Rehak's. One quick guide could be looking up the personal reviews in www.amazon.com.

David Kent's "Forty Whacks" is still the one best book to introduce a reader to this Unsolved Mystery.
If anyone disagrees, please explain why another is better.
Rick Geary's "Classic Comic" book format is ok, as far as it goes.

i'm amazed that pearson's books have not been prominent. admitedly biased, but what a good writer he is.
i started many years ago when i stumbled onto the radin book. i was 12 and, after reading it, felt very smug. i knew who really did it! then i read the pearson books, which was about all you could get at the time and realized i had stepped into a total enigma. since then, i have read every book on the subject and researched much of the newspaper coverage at the time and, of course, the source material.
what you read first, i think, will always be your favorite because it is that which hooks you. however, i think the david kent "forty whacks" is the least prejudiced book. sullivan makes his bias very clear at the outset and his information underscores it at every turn. while it is interesting to read gossip, he relies a lot on rumors and stories that may or may not be true.
read any book and then go to the source material and have your eyes opened wide when you see the descrepancies between the individual books and how they culled source material.

Pearson's edition of the trial, 1937, did have photos of the bodies in it. So did Porter in 1893.

Thanks Stuart! I didn't realize Porter had those pics!

The Pearson re-print is 1989 and the Porter re-print is 1985.
So, except for those very few who had the originals, Radin is still the modern first?
Did Snow have those? In Piracy, etc. 1959?

Kat, I think you're right about Radin being the first modern book to carry photos of the bodies. His was the first book I was able to find in the library about the case, and as a teenager I was absolutely delighted to find that it had those lovely gory photos!
In actuality, the first reading I did about the Borden case was an article in the old Liberty Magazine. But I don't remember if that had illustrations of the bodies or not.

I am happy to see that the more we look at Radin the more creditable he appears, though he makes some good points about who he thinks the killer was, I don't subscribe to it what so ever; but don't think it takes away from the book at all.

Still, I find it an excellent first (easy) read on the case.

Though earlier I recommended Spiering along with Sullivan, Radin and Lincoln, I would place Spiering at the end of the pack. It was not until KT72 reminded me of some of the errors and embellishments in Spiering's book that it all came back to me. If you are well informed on the case you would find it a disappointing read, as ALLEN had stressed.

stuartwsa @ Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:05 am wrote:Kat, I think you're right about Radin being the first modern book to carry photos of the bodies. His was the first book I was able to find in the library about the case, and as a teenager I was absolutely delighted to find that it had those lovely gory photos!
In actuality, the first reading I did about the Borden case was an article in the old Liberty Magazine. But I don't remember if that had illustrations of the bodies or not.

I remember with my sister hanging out at bookstores and looking thru true crime books for pictures. We had grown up on true crime, among other genres.
But I think the early 1960's was almost before they would ever show bodies in books- so that's pretty early.
I recall our first body (in my recollection) was the picture of Ed Gein's victim gutted like a deer and hanging from the rafter.

I bet unconsciously, Radin is preferred in memory because he quenched a need to see the victims.

There are some books about Lizzie that I notice don't seem to get mentioned very much if at all. For example, when I go to Barnes and Noble I see that Joyce Williams has a "Source" book. I have never read it but it is newer than Kent's "Source" book. Does it offer anything that Kent's book doesn't?


Another thing. I checked out the books offered at the Fall Rivers Historical Society and saw a couple that seemed interesting. One was on the history of the church that Lizzie belonged to. Is that book any good? Does it have more on Rev. Buck? Anything on Lizzie in it?

They are selling Joyce William's Casebook of Family and Crime at Barnes and Noble?
Do you mean in the store??

Is the church history book called "History and Annals of the Central Congregational Church?" Or might that be a chapter title?
I have, from Terence Dunihos' collection, a xerox of the chapter that includes Revs. Buck, Jubb, Knight and Swift.

Edit: I find, in Rebello, pg. 11, a source given as History of the Central Church, byMrs.s Carr, Thurston and Holmes. Is that the book to which you refer? I wonder if that is the chapter I have?

DWilly @ Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:40 pm wrote:There are some books about Lizzie that I notice don't seem to get mentioned very much if at all. For example, when I go to Barnes and Noble I see that Joyce Williams has a "Source" book. I have never read it but it is newer than Kent's "Source" book. Does it offer anything that Kent's book doesn't?


Another thing. I checked out the books offered at the Fall Rivers Historical Society and saw a couple that seemed interesting. One was on the history of the church that Lizzie belonged to. Is that book any good? Does it have more on Rev. Buck? Anything on Lizzie in it?

Ooo, look what I found in the LBQ. I hadn't really noticed it before!
This is from a special calendar sold by the FRHS in 1994. Anybody have this?

Good find, Kat! I have both the '92 and '93 FRHS calendars, but never knew there was another one in '94! Anything else of interest in it?

Oh goodness me! I don't have the calendar, I only have the LBQ advertisement.
You have 2 calendars?? What are they like?

Great eye candy Kat: Love that room. You can see the influence of old English country.

I have worked in the Rev. Buck's many times in the past. The extent of disrepair and unsigthly way it has been modified over the years can only be described as sad. One can only use their imagination to get a mental picture of what it may have looked like in Lizzie's time, by the photo in the Hatchet. (Vol. 3 No. 1)

There are few Victorian homes in Fall River who's halls, basements, and rooms I have not wandered thru. Long ago, when I had little interest in such history, I had a job in the FRHS building. The job I had there was an historians dream, taking me into many hidden closets and small spaces within the building. Having no interest, and only focused on the Stones Concert I was to attend that weekend, I took little time to appreciate the heart and bowels of the structure I was crawling thru.

Although the Rev. Buck's building is well known to Lizzie enthusiast, to the common Fall Riverite, and I dare say probably some who have lived in Rev. Buck's building, they have no clue, or concern of it's historical significance.

114 Prospect Street?
Supposedly now it's a 3 family home. Was it when you were there?

What did you do in all of these buildings?

A couple of you- please check your PM box.
Thanks!

Dang...no PM's for me...sniiiiff....snifffffff.


Tracy...

Well Tracy, I had to post that to get the attention of a member who might not be expecting to hear from me.

Just wanted to pick the groups brain a little on a title I am not familiar with, but that I purchased last year and threw on my shelf; hoping to read someday.

It's called "The Ability To Kill" by Eric Ambler. I believe he was a British criminologist writing in the 50s and 60s about true crime.

When I purchased it I thought there was a chapter on Lizzie but I was wrong. There is nothing written about Lizzie in the book.

But there is a chapter where Mr. Ambler mentions speaking to a group called, "THE INCORPORATED SOCIETY OF AMERICAN MURDER-TASTERS." where he claimed to give a speech at one of their gatherings called "THE LIZZIE BORDEN MEMORIAL LECTURES." (but not about Lizzie Borden instead on famous murders in Europe, I think?)

The book was printed in 1963. Can anyone expound on it.

mbhenty @ Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:16 pm wrote:Just wanted to pick the groups brain a little on a title I am not familiar with, but that I purchased last year and threw on my shelf; hoping to read someday.

It's called "The Ability To Kill" by Eric Ambler. I believe he was a British criminologist writing in the 50s and 60s about true crime.

When I purchased it I thought there was a chapter on Lizzie but I was wrong. There is nothing written about Lizzie in the book.

But there is a chapter where Mr. Ambler mentions speaking to a group called, "THE INCORPORATED SOCIETY OF AMERICAN MURDER-TASTERS." where he claimed to give a speech at one of their gatherings called "THE LIZZIE BORDEN MEMORIAL LECTURES." (but not about Lizzie Borden instead on famous murders in Europe, I think?)

The book was printed in 1963. Can anyone expound on it.

I've read it; it wasn't particularly useful to me. It's basically just a collection of very familiar true-crime stories with a few other essays on espionage and the like.

If you're interested in the psychology of murder in general, you might want to read Richard Rhodes' extraordinary Why They Kill. It doesn't focus exclusively on serial killers, as so many murder psychology books do, but with more ordinary people pushed to the edge. You might also be interested in the writings of Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman; his website is at http://www.killology.com/. He's a career Army officer who studies the psychology of killing on and off the battllefield.

Yes, thank you wordweaver for the tip on Richard Rhodes' book. I have the English 1st Edition of Ambler's book and I love the cover. It shows a skeleton walking in a black hooded shroud with a red symbol of sorts on the front. Interesting cover to say the least.

mbhenty @ Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:16 am wrote:Just wanted to pick the groups brain a little on a title I am not familiar with, but that I purchased last year and threw on my shelf; hoping to read someday.

It's called "The Ability To Kill" by Eric Ambler. I believe he was a British criminologist writing in the 50s and 60s about true crime.

When I purchased it I thought there was a chapter on Lizzie but I was wrong. There is nothing written about Lizzie in the book.

But there is a chapter where Mr. Ambler mentions speaking to a group called, "THE INCORPORATED SOCIETY OF AMERICAN MURDER-TASTERS." where he claimed to give a speech at one of their gatherings called "THE LIZZIE BORDEN MEMORIAL LECTURES." (but not about Lizzie Borden instead on famous murders in Europe, I think?)

The book was printed in 1963. Can anyone expound on it.

Eric Ambler (died circa 1996?) was a very famous author. Any of his fictional works will tell you about him. I reread some of his pre-war adventure novels last year. He mostly wrote fiction that used current events as a background. In today's world, his book would be set in the Middle East. He was an engineer by training.
P.S. Like Arnold Brown.

That sounds like maybe this *Organization* is fictional?
I've never heard of it. There might have been something equivalant at the time, tho:

THE INCORPORATED SOCIETY OF AMERICAN MURDER-TASTERS." where he claimed to give a speech at one of their gatherings called "THE LIZZIE BORDEN MEMORIAL LECTURES."

--mbhenty

Eric Ambler English and American editions

Kat @ Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:18 pm wrote:That sounds like maybe this *Organization* is fictional?
I've never heard of it. There might have been something equivalant at the time, tho:

THE INCORPORATED SOCIETY OF AMERICAN MURDER-TASTERS." where he claimed to give a speech at one of their gatherings called "THE LIZZIE BORDEN MEMORIAL LECTURES."

--mbhenty

I am sure it was "real" at the time, but may now be extinct. Searching through NY state incorporation records could provide more details, but who cares?

EDIT
The previous post that occupied this space was in bad taste and not characteristic of my demeanor, thus I removed it, point made, thanks everyone.

Oh PSHAW- bite your tongue.

Anyway, I think it's a fictional organization. Has anyone else ever heard of it?