Lizzie Borden Society Forum

This discussion demonstrates what is often wrong w/ this board.
People will speculate about the barn torn down in the 1930s (?), but not about any recent activities.
I haven't been in a dairy barn for many years, but remember it as being cool until the afternoon. The sides had open slots to let the hay dry out.
I hope some of those here can tell of their recent experiences in a similar barn.

My experience with dairy barns is as recent as 1995.

RayS...there are MANY MANY MANY things RIGHT with this forum...MANY. However, a little less negativity would add to the pleasantry and fun. Just a spoon full of sugar...ya know ?


Tracy...

RayS @ Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:58 pm wrote:This discussion demonstrates what is often wrong w/ this board.
People will speculate about the barn torn down in the 1930s (?), but not about any recent activities.
I haven't been in a dairy barn for many years, but remember it as being cool until the afternoon. The sides had open slots to let the hay dry out.
I hope some of those here can tell of their recent experiences in a similar barn.

It is odd how opinions vary. I have a totally different idea about what is often wrong with this forum!

Well said my dear sister...as always.


Tracy...

Yooper @ Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:11 am wrote:My experience with dairy barns is as recent as 1995.

Mine is even more recent. I lived on a farm when I was little, and some of my relatives still farm. I think the last time I was in a working barn was the last time I was back east -- two years ago.

Incidentally, that barn was more of an all-purpose barn than a dairy barn, as I understand it.

Lynn

PS--I've also split kindling with a hatchet, though never a skull.

RayS @ Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:07 am wrote:
Don't forget what the witness was wearing. Boys in short pants and no jacket would be cooler than an officer with long pants and frock coat.

True. It would be interesting to know what the Fall River police uniform was made from, and what color it was.

Lynn

Wasn't the east window in the back of the loft open, or am I just very tired?

"Me and Brownie" were hardly a couple of boys in short pants. They were wise-mouth kids according to one article I read in a newspaper. The police thought they were ultimate candidates for jail. At least one of them (Thomas Barlow, the "Me" of the two) proved them right as we know he was arrested for several shoe thefts in October 1893.

Brownie seems to have grown a little wiser. According to Borden historian, Neilson Caplain, in an article in the July 1996 LBQ: "... Brownie was none other than Everett P. Brown, who was old enough in 1898, six years later, to serve in the armed forces in the Spanish-American War, and whose likeness is in a neat oval picture in the large composite commemorating the War, which work of art graces one wall in the conference room downstairs in the Historical Society Building. ..."

Gotta make sure I see that the next visit to the FRHS.

Kat @ Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:52 am wrote:Wasn't the east window in the back of the loft open, or am I just very tired?

Kat, at what time are you referring to? It wasn't open when Lizzie claimed she was up there. She looked out the west window, which was closed, and straightened the curtains which she claimed were crooked. What is surprising to me is that the loft of the barn had curtains. A photo of the south side of the barn shows curtains on the window but none on the door.

The loft at the time contained quite a bit of hay (read somewhere a half ton) and also some sea grass. Sounds like half a ton of hay is a lot, but I'm no farmer. Could Andrew have stored hay for sale to the stables on Second Street?

Kat @ Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:52 am wrote:Wasn't the east window in the back of the loft open, or am I just very tired?

The one picture shown here recently did have that east window open. It looked like how they raised (bales? of) hay to the top floor. That would provide ventilation. Those who have a floor plan of that barn can tell.

Note how the many who did have recent experience of being in a barn did not tell what their experience was. As I remember it, it was cool until the afternoon for us 10-year old children. No ties or jackets.

For us forty-odd year old dairy farmers throwing 40-50 pound hay bales around it was tolerable until about noon, then rapidly became unbearable. By unbearable, I mean I sweated so much that I literally couldn't see what I was doing.

RayS,
Is there something which makes you believe either I or anyone else is answerable to you for anything? I, for one, was born without your approval and will die just as happy if I never get it.

Maybe dear old RayS....is just curmudgeonly old Andrew reincarnated ? We can all keep trying to be nice...but, it does get tiresome to always have a slighting comment com back at us doesn't it ? RayS, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE consider being nice. No, we probably won't agree on a lot of theories on this case, but we can at least be respectful of the theories and thoughts of others.

I know...save my breath to cool my soup. I just keep thinking that one of these days RayS will wake up and say "What day is it ??...It's Christmas day ??"


Tracy...

RayS @ Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:11 pm wrote:The one picture shown here recently did have that east window open. It looked like how they raised (bales? of) hay to the top floor. That would provide ventilation. Those who have a floor plan of that barn can tell.

That's not a window on the east side. It's a door for raising hay on the south side. There are no pictures of the east window that I know of. The west, yes, the east, no.

A difference of opinion is what we're all here for. One may even attack an idea if so inclined. When someone demands to "see your papers", it becomes a personal attack, and I think the proper response is with a FIST full of papers!

Harry, I think Harrington mentioned the window open?
I should have checked but my goodness, I am sourced out right now!
Anyone check Harrington when he got sent to search the barn loft?
(He mentions to Fleet "I don't like that girl" I think, in the barn?- I'm still real tired...)

Here's Harrington's testimony from the Prelim (p394+) regarding the barn
windows:

"... Then the marshal and I went up stairs. When we got there, I saw officer Conners, Riley and Doherty, they had preceeded us, but I did not see them go up. ..."
---------------------------
"Q. What windows are there?
A. On the east, and one on the west, and in the middle of the barn facing the south there is a door; that was open when I got there.
Q. How were the windows, shut or open?
A. The window on the west was open.
Q. Towards the front?
A. Yes. And I think, but I am not certain, that some of the men opened the window on the east to get air. It was very warm up there.
Q. That was three o'clock in the afternoon?
A. Yes Sir. There was a pidgeon (sic) loft on the east end of the barn, up above the window."

Then at the trial he repeats essentially the same thing. (p585+) He is being questioned by Robinson who is reading from the Preliminary:

Q. Then I will read on: "How were the windows, shut or open?" A. "The windows on the west was open." Is that correct?
A. I am not clear, sir. I feel now, or think now, rather, that it was closed when we went there---I am almost sure of that: but it is possible to be mistaken in all this long time. I have not read those notes or reread them since, sir.
Q. And in justice to you I will read what follows, so you can have the benefit of it: "The window on the west was open." This was your answer: (Reading). "Q. Towards the front?" "A. Yes, I think, but I am not certain, that some of the men opened the window on the east to get air; it was very warm upstairs."Now does the reading of what follows help you to remember about the west window?
A. It does not."

It would appear from all this that both the east and west windows and the hay-loading door on the south side were opened by the police during their search and pitching over of the hay in the loft.

All this still doesn't answer my question of who shut the hay-loading door. Clarkson, who was considered a reliable witness, testified the hay-loading door was open and he was there about noon-ish. Why would anyone who was there after him close that door if was so hot?

Thank you Harry!
If Harrington can't remember, and he was there, I can see why I couldn't quite remember either!
I appreciate the testimony segment.

What would it mean to us if that west window was open when Lizzie was there, after all? Hmmm...

I would think if Lizzie was going to look for something smallish in the loft, and didn't mind being up there 12 or 15 or 20 minutes, she might very well open that hay-door for light and air.

Was the hay-door found to be closed when the first outside observers (police or whomever) got there?

Yooper @ Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:54 pm wrote:For us forty-odd year old dairy farmers throwing 40-50 pound hay bales around it was tolerable until about noon, then rapidly became unbearable. By unbearable, I mean I sweated so much that I literally couldn't see what I was doing.

RayS,
Is there something which makes you believe either I or anyone else is answerable to you for anything? I, for one, was born without your approval and will die just as happy if I never get it.

My eyewitness experience was that hay was loaded with pitchforks in the 1940s, then automatic baling machines used from the 1950s to the 1980s. Afterwards they used a machine that rolled up the hay into round bales. This prevented the cows from injuring their tongues on sharp broken pieces of hay.

The obvious question is: what is a dairy farmer doing on this board? I have a relative who not only isn't computer literate, but has stopped keeping track of records. His time is too important to waste.
How many dairy cows do you milk? A wife? How many kids, and ages?
I heard the size of a herd needed today. Many farms have been dispersed.

Yooper @ Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:11 pm wrote:My experience with dairy barns is as recent as 1995.

Think.

RayS @ Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:38 pm wrote:

Yooper @ Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:54 pm wrote:For us forty-odd year old dairy farmers throwing 40-50 pound hay bales around it was tolerable until about noon, then rapidly became unbearable. By unbearable, I mean I sweated so much that I literally couldn't see what I was doing.

RayS,
Is there something which makes you believe either I or anyone else is answerable to you for anything? I, for one, was born without your approval and will die just as happy if I never get it.

My eyewitness experience was that hay was loaded with pitchforks in the 1940s, then automatic baling machines used from the 1950s to the 1980s. Afterwards they used a machine that rolled up the hay into round bales. This prevented the cows from injuring their tongues on sharp broken pieces of hay.

The obvious question is: what is a dairy farmer doing on this board? I have a relative who not only isn't computer literate, but has stopped keeping track of records. His time is too important to waste.
How many dairy cows do you milk? A wife? How many kids, and ages?
I heard the size of a herd needed today. Many farms have been dispersed.

My hell RayS...is no one (or their families) safe from your ire ?


Tracy...

RayS @ Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:38 pm wrote: How many dairy cows do you milk? A wife? How many kids, and ages? I heard the size of a herd needed today. Many farms have been dispersed.

Very few people milk wives commercially. As you've observed, you need quite a herd of them to make the operation pay, and it's a Federal offense to have more than one active at any given time.

Farmers do sometimes go on to other jobs. My brother-in-law farmed until his family sold up. Then he went back to college and became a Baptist preacher. Although he no longer farms, he's still quite knowledgeable about agriculture (his first degree was in dairy science, I believe). He's also quite computer literate, as are many farmers I know. That's how sites like http://www.dairyheifersonline.com/ survive.

Oh, and my niece, whose degree in animal science is from Cornell, is running a model farm in New York State. As the daughter of a computer programmer, she's been computer literate since she was a toddler. She's also a beautiful woman -- think Gwyneth Paltrow in overalls. Next month's trip includes a visit to her and a family reunion on her farm. I'll check out the barn temperatures and report back. With photographs.

Best regards,
Lynn

As my wife used to say when asked what I did for a living: "He pulls tits." The facial expressions were priceless!

Yooper @ Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:00 pm wrote:As my wife used to say when asked what I did for a living: "He pulls tits." The facial expressions were priceless!

That is great ! Too funny !


Tracy...

RayS @ Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:38 pm wrote:

Yooper @ Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:54 pm wrote:For us forty-odd year old dairy farmers throwing 40-50 pound hay bales around it was tolerable until about noon, then rapidly became unbearable. By unbearable, I mean I sweated so much that I literally couldn't see what I was doing.

RayS,
Is there something which makes you believe either I or anyone else is answerable to you for anything? I, for one, was born without your approval and will die just as happy if I never get it.

My eyewitness experience was that hay was loaded with pitchforks in the 1940s, then automatic baling machines used from the 1950s to the 1980s. Afterwards they used a machine that rolled up the hay into round bales. This prevented the cows from injuring their tongues on sharp broken pieces of hay.

The obvious question is: what is a dairy farmer doing on this board? I have a relative who not only isn't computer literate, but has stopped keeping track of records. His time is too important to waste.
How many dairy cows do you milk? A wife? How many kids, and ages?
I heard the size of a herd needed today. Many farms have been dispersed.

If a precipitous a$$hole can post why can't a dairy farmer?

I've been a lot of things, former farmer included.

Yooper @ Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:02 pm wrote:I've been a lot of things, former farmer included.

Have you ever been an arbitrarily rude, closed minded old coot with no respect for anyone including yourself?

Sounds like Andrew Borden reincarnated!! I think theebmonique may have already made that point. I have often been pointedly rude, and am more of an old goat than an old coot.

Come to think of it, we have an old coot, an old goat, and if we can come up with an old bat and an old buzzard, we'll have quite a zoo!

I will be the old bat!

I often wonder why some keep feeding into Ray's abominable behavior instead of ignoring it and not giving it any more ammunition to keep going (that tactic worked very well when I was raising my children), but then I realize I wouldn't be getting such a great laugh out of your responses. You guys are great! And hilarious.

I tried that Angel. It is impossible to do.

I know what you mean. One has an irresistable urge to grab for one's hatchet.

Yooper @ Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:09 pm wrote:Sounds like Andrew Borden reincarnated!! I think theebmonique may have already made that point. I have often been pointedly rude, and am more of an old goat than an old coot.

There's a lot of that going around. It may be the weather, or something that is associated with getiing old and crotchety. "Crabby old man" is sort of a cliche. But not everyone? Have you noticed this in some women too?

Angel @ Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:50 am wrote:I often wonder why some keep feeding into Ray's abominable behavior instead of ignoring it and not giving it any more ammunition to keep going (that tactic worked very well when I was raising my children), but then I realize I wouldn't be getting such a great laugh out of your responses. You guys are great! And hilarious.

You are not following your own advice. Can you explain why?

Yooper @ Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:00 pm wrote:As my wife used to say when asked what I did for a living: "He pulls tits." The facial expressions were priceless!

Not to question your bonafides, but your responses seem to slightly inaccurate. Milking machines were used for any large herd for decades. I'll mention Alfa-Laval for your future references.
Your quote also seems unlikely, no one who know a dairy farmer will ever ask that question. On vacation? Most don't have the time, unless they have sons to fill in.

Somehow, you remind me of the missing "W Brayton Cook", as if you were another screen name. Not that I care.
PS I always heard that pronounced differently. Cows have teats, woman have (the work you used). I am being cautious.

Wordweaver @ Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:38 pm wrote:

RayS @ Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:07 am wrote:
Don't forget what the witness was wearing. Boys in short pants and no jacket would be cooler than an officer with long pants and frock coat.

True. It would be interesting to know what the Fall River police uniform was made from, and what color it was.

Lynn

Don't the pictures show dark blue frock coats, and caps or bee-hive helmets?

theebmonique @ Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:12 pm wrote:Maybe dear old RayS....is just curmudgeonly old Andrew reincarnated ? We can all keep trying to be nice...but, it does get tiresome to always have a slighting comment com back at us doesn't it ? RayS, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE consider being nice. No, we probably won't agree on a lot of theories on this case, but we can at least be respectful of the theories and thoughts of others.
I know...save my breath to cool my soup. I just keep thinking that one of these days RayS will wake up and say "What day is it ??...It's Christmas day ??"
Tracy...

While everyone's opinions are equal, some of are more equal! It depends on how much you have read and retained. You can notice the lack of reading by some of the questions. Or the comments.

Like La Francaise's comment on that movie, she didn't know that Uncle John was totally censored from that entertainment.

RayS @ Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:05 pm wrote:

Yooper @ Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:00 pm wrote:As my wife used to say when asked what I did for a living: "He pulls tits." The facial expressions were priceless!

Not to question your bonafides, but your responses seem to slightly inaccurate. Milking machines were used for any large herd for decades. I'll mention Alfa-Laval for your future references.
Your quote also seems unlikely, no one who know a dairy farmer will ever ask that question. On vacation? Most don't have the time, unless they have sons to fill in.

Somehow, you remind me of the missing "W Brayton Cook", as if you were another screen name. Not that I care.

.

Actually, for a self-appointed judge, you don't know a hell of a lot. For instance, before the inflations are attached, the first squirt or two go on the floor to reduce the possibility of bacteria contamination in the milk. There are bacteria present even after washing. This is always done by hand, more of a progressive squeeze than a pull.
I'll suggest Universal as a pipeline manufacturer for a name you can throw around in the future to try and impress people with.
Clearly, anyone who already knew me wouldn't need to ask what I do for a living, what makes you think she only spoke to people who knew me?

If your intent was to "not question my bonafides", then your subsequent comments were clearly an attempt at character assassination.

RayS @ Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:09 pm wrote:

theebmonique @ Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:12 pm wrote:Maybe dear old RayS....is just curmudgeonly old Andrew reincarnated ? We can all keep trying to be nice...but, it does get tiresome to always have a slighting comment com back at us doesn't it ? RayS, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE consider being nice. No, we probably won't agree on a lot of theories on this case, but we can at least be respectful of the theories and thoughts of others.
I know...save my breath to cool my soup. I just keep thinking that one of these days RayS will wake up and say "What day is it ??...It's Christmas day ??"
Tracy...

While everyone's opinions are equal, some of are more equal! It depends on how much you have read and retained. You can notice the lack of reading by some of the questions. Or the comments.

Like La Francaise's comment on that movie, she didn't know that Uncle John was totally censored from that entertainment.

Enough is enough. I will absolutely NOT tolerate remarks about my heritage or country of origin. I am reporting this post to the forum administrator and unless you are censored or banned from the forum I will no longer be visiting it.

Good Lord.

You called Ray a "precipitous a$$hole and an "arbitrarily rude, closed minded old coot."

You don't see him stamping his feet and throwing a hissy-fit, do you?

I hit the report button on YOU, because I don't need to see that kind of language on here.

RayS @ Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:07 am wrote: Don't the pictures show dark blue frock coats, and caps or bee-hive helmets?

Dark, yes, but the pictures are in black and white. Were the uniforms wool? Cotton? What weight?

http://www.frpd.org/history.htm

Great photo ! Thanks Kat ! Sometimes I forget about checking frpd.org. It has some good info.


Tracy...

That photo was taken in front of the Armory, which I believe still stands.

I know that Officer Allen, the first police officer on the scene, was not in police uniform but civilian clothing. Been trying for a while to determine which officers were in uniform on the 4th.

Wordweaver @ Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:22 pm wrote:

RayS @ Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:07 am wrote: Don't the pictures show dark blue frock coats, and caps or bee-hive helmets?

Dark, yes, but the pictures are in black and white. Were the uniforms wool? Cotton? What weight?

The police uniforms are dark blue, representing the color of militia and Army uniforms from the 19th century. They were wool, of course (insulating even when wet), but had full linings. IMO
Before the professional police were created, the local militia policed the town or county. Sort of like the volunteer firemen of that day. My cousin who lives in a rural area (the Appalachians) has such a volunteer fire company. What little I know about dairymen comes from conversations with his now deceased parents from years ago.
In the late 19th century the rising and powerful corporate aristocracy put an end to the popular militia. It started in 1877 Pittsburgh (any good history book will tell you about this). In 1890 South Carolina the Legislature passed Prohibition and the Governor signed it. It became a dead letter when the militian refused to enforce the law (checks and balances). So something had to be done. Professional police forces predate the Civil War in big cities (New York, Washington) because of the composition of the populace.

Elizabelle @ Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:30 pm wrote:Good Lord.

You called Ray a "precipitous a$$hole and an "arbitrarily rude, closed minded old coot."

You don't see him stamping his feet and throwing a hissy-fit, do you?

I hit the report button on YOU, because I don't need to see that kind of language on here.

Thank you for your support. It seems that this person is being deliberately insulting. It reminds me of that short-lived copycat board from about 4 years ago.
I don't use bad language because my mouth was washed out with soap too many times as a youth.
Ivory soap or Lifebouy wasn't too bad, but Lava definintely cured me. Pavlovian conditioning?

Yooper @ Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:38 pm wrote:

RayS @ Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:05 pm wrote:

Yooper @ Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:00 pm wrote:As my wife used to say when asked what I did for a living: "He pulls tits." The facial expressions were priceless!

Not to question your bonafides, but your responses seem to slightly inaccurate. Milking machines were used for any large herd for decades. I'll mention Alfa-Laval for your future references.
Your quote also seems unlikely, no one who know a dairy farmer will ever ask that question. On vacation? Most don't have the time, unless they have sons to fill in.

Somehow, you remind me of the missing "W Brayton Cook", as if you were another screen name. Not that I care.

.

Actually, for a self-appointed judge, you don't know a hell of a lot. For instance, before the inflations are attached, the first squirt or two go on the floor to reduce the possibility of bacteria contamination in the milk. There are bacteria present even after washing. This is always done by hand, more of a progressive squeeze than a pull.
I'll suggest Universal as a pipeline manufacturer for a name you can throw around in the future to try and impress people with.
Clearly, anyone who already knew me wouldn't need to ask what I do for a living, what makes you think she only spoke to people who knew me?

If your intent was to "not question my bonafides", then your subsequent comments were clearly an attempt at character assassination.

I NEVER claimed to be a dairyman. I remember my Grandpa being able to aim the output into the open mouth of a waiting kat. After he left, the farm was mechanized. No more horses, or hand milking.
I think you are taking this whole conversation too seriously. So I apoligize for any unknowing comment that set you off. I think I'm within my rights to question those who claim an expertise.
How HOT was that barn? Did it have open slots in the wood walls?

I once read another book; it explained the reason for the beehive helmets still used by English bobbies. It made them stand out in a crowd, they could stand on them to see better, etc. The bobbies have a special pocket in their pants to keep their truncheons hidden away.
It also explained the difference between the unifiormed and the plainclothes police. Its not what you might think.

RayS @ Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:05 pm wrote:

Yooper @ Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:38 pm wrote:

RayS @ Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:05 pm wrote: Not to question your bonafides, but your responses seem to slightly inaccurate. Milking machines were used for any large herd for decades. I'll mention Alfa-Laval for your future references.
Your quote also seems unlikely, no one who know a dairy farmer will ever ask that question. On vacation? Most don't have the time, unless they have sons to fill in.

Somehow, you remind me of the missing "W Brayton Cook", as if you were another screen name. Not that I care.

.

Actually, for a self-appointed judge, you don't know a hell of a lot. For instance, before the inflations are attached, the first squirt or two go on the floor to reduce the possibility of bacteria contamination in the milk. There are bacteria present even after washing. This is always done by hand, more of a progressive squeeze than a pull.
I'll suggest Universal as a pipeline manufacturer for a name you can throw around in the future to try and impress people with.
Clearly, anyone who already knew me wouldn't need to ask what I do for a living, what makes you think she only spoke to people who knew me?

If your intent was to "not question my bonafides", then your subsequent comments were clearly an attempt at character assassination.

I NEVER claimed to be a dairyman. I remember my Grandpa being able to aim the output into the open mouth of a waiting kat. After he left, the farm was mechanized. No more horses, or hand milking.
I think you are taking this whole conversation too seriously. So I apoligize for any unknowing comment that set you off. I think I'm within my rights to question those who claim an expertise.
How HOT was that barn? Did it have open slots in the wood walls?

Then how can you be the judge of my veracity?