Lizzie Borden Society Forum

The police were "baffled" by the presence of a hatchet on the neighbor's shed roof. This may indicate what they thought of the new evidence because they didn't admit to being "dazzled". The shed roof (perhaps roofs in general) was a place they "didn't visit in their thorough search". I wonder if they searched any nearby basements on the possibility of an open window.

I'm getting the idea that the police may have had to "save face" at some point concerning their investigation and simply would not permit any new evidence. They may have thought they had to perpetuate a forgone conclusion at the expense of justice, just to avoid appearing inept.

At times the police investigation appears to have been very thorough allowing for the technology available in 1892, and other times I get the idea they couldn't have found the murder weapon had it been glued to the police chief's hat.

Angel @ Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:43 am wrote:

theebmonique @ Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:28 pm wrote: I apologize for whatever I have done so that you a lot of times have to end your responding posts to me with a slam. What can I do to make it up to you so that you will stop doing that ?
Tracy...

Tracy- please! You do not have to ever apologize to anyone who is rude to you- it is their own decision to respond in an offensive way. I have never seen that you deserve this kind of crass behavior, and I certainly have never seen that you have been rude to anyone else. And as for him not doing that anymore- don't count on it. It's too ingrained, obviously, or our attempts (to explain that one simply doesn't treat people like that) would have shamed any sensitive person to have seen the light by now.

Amen

Audrey @ Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:57 pm wrote:

RayS @ Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:57 am wrote:The Great Chicago Fire of Oct 1871 resulted in establishing fire codes throughout the nation. Every year Fire Prevention week in October commemorates the Chicago Fire. Fire codes seek to prevent or lessen the dangers from fires.

The police did not find the hatchet on the roof because it was not there that weekend. I suppose that looking out the window you could see it. Any old hatchet could have been planted there.
The police search must have found the paint-stained dress, but it was not germane because of the old dried paint on it.

Can you find anything in the record that says differently?

The polite found the paint stained dress and then forgot about it??? This would explain why the grand jury indited Lizzie after Alice returned and testified to the burning of a dress-- which she told them Lizzie stated was stained with paint....

If they were as competent as you contend to remove each and every floor board/wall board/etc to see if a hatchet was secreted in the wall why not step forward and admit they did find a paint stained dress???

This is the problem when you try to make the facts fit a conclusion, ie- Brown. In my opinion the idea that the police found the paint stained dress and it NEVER coming out that they did so is ludicrous and something one of my 8 year olds might have suggested 3 or 4 years ago.

If the Police found Lizzie's "paint covered" dress and knew it existed, why would the Police then turn around and arrest Lizzie when told by Alice Russell that Lizzie had burned it?

I can just see a conversation something like this (now these are my words):

Alice: "I saw Lizzie burning a dress in her stove. She said it was covered in "paint."

Police: "Yea, we saw that dress. It's been cleared. It was paint. No big deal. But thank you for bringing it to our attention, Miss Russell."

The fact that the Police arrested Lizzie when told about the dress burning lead's me to believe that the Police had never seen that dress and so assumed that the "paint" may have been blood. If they never saw that dress then their search was not complete. So, if they missed the dress they could have missed the hatchet as well.

-1bigsteve (o:

Angel...and Auds...thank you so much for your supprt. I very much appreciate your kind words.


Tracy...

I don't have the books at hand.
Lizzie burned that dress on Sunday, after the searches on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Alice didn't go to the Grand Jury until November, and it then indicted Lizzie. Lizzie was arrested before this, the first week. As I remember it.
Does anyone have a time-line for the events here?

sguthmann @ Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:53 pm wrote:the FRPD may have been very thorough in SOME aspects of searching the Borden crime scene, however, you cannot tell me that by today's standards their work would not be considered VERY LAX, lacking basic law enforcement crime scene security and search procedures.

what if the police returned in a day or 2 and took the house apart, plank by plank and brick by brick?? that day or 2 during which the premises were NOT sealed off and thoroughly searched leaves a lot of room for manipulation and contamination of the data and evidence, not to mention what could be gotten rid of during that time! and what about interviews and interrogations? some were done early on, but how thorough were they? they certainly didn't isolate bridget and lizzie in separate interrogation rooms and go over and over the events of the day as would be done now. crucial, critical time was lost, and the state of the crime scene was forever compromised. those are simply the facts.

Policeman Allen was on the scene just minutes after it was reported. He assigned carpenter Sawyer to guard the house so no one could enter. Then the high ranking police came over to check things out. I believe that Lizzie went to her room, and Bridget must have been alone for the police questioning that day. I don't know anyone who faulted the police for using the techniques available at that time (SOP).
I believe that nowadays they would evacuate the house and look for clues; BUT the Bordens were VIPs and would be treated with kid gloves.

theebmonique @ Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:28 pm wrote:Ray,
Please do not twist my words or continue to make slighting comments. I was responding to a comment you had made, which was:

The police search must have found the paint-stained dress, but it was not germane because of the old dried paint on it.

In giving this explanation for my response, I was just meaning to comment that if you were thinking that; the police "must" have found the dress but found it "not germane" to the case, that I had not heard that before nor had been able to find anything to back it up in the Witness Statements.

I apologize for whatever I have done so that you a lot of times have to end your responding posts to me with a slam. What can I do to make it up to you so that you will stop doing that ?

Tracy...

And I too apologize for anything that may have unwittingly offended you.

My understanding is that the police will always hold back on the info to rule out false confessions. There were some in those days? They will not record anything that is not germane to the crime. They did record the number of dresses in that closet (20?) - most of them belonging to Lizzie. But Emma may have packed many for her month's vacation in Fairhaven.
What do the ladies say? Do they always pack more than they expect to use?

Kat @ Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:46 am wrote:In Mandal (Sharky) Marks day there were tales that if there was an attack of paranoia he threw betting slips down that trap door to the old fireplace in Andrew's bedroom and they would fall all the way to the cellar, into the fire area there.
I had asked about it and it was confirmed verbally on the phone with a contact in Fall River who knows the house who said it was possible.
Personally, I can't quite picture it, but I have not much experience with old houses.

I'm sure the police are well aware of this trick, even in 1892.
Most chimneys have an 'ash door' to clean out the ashes. I don't know if this is needed with oil or gas heat (modern times). Wood and coal certainly.

Wordweaver @ Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:13 am wrote:

Yooper @ Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:53 am wrote:I think the house was built in 1845, before the fire codes.

The fact that the roof hatchet appeared to be "little used" is interesting. I think a roofer would be less apt to be careless with a new tool.

Not only that, but traces of gilt were found in Abby's skull wounds. She was killed with a new or newish hatchet.

Nice to meet you, BTW.

First, that newspaper said it was rusty or dirty. "Little used" could just be newspaper fiction for a sensational story.
Second, the knowledge of 'traces of gilt' comes from David Kent's book, the 'new evidence' that was suppressed at the time (no Brady rule).
But most of all, given the sensational crime, and the height of adjoining buildings, I doubt that it was there in August 1892. It could be someone's practical joke to throw an old hatchet there.

My response was to how the buildings were made back then- but now I think I recall something could be dropped from the attic area where Bridget's room was down thru the same system, thru Andrew's old fireplace all the way to the cellar.
It was only in the last 2 years we heard about that opening to the old fireplace in Andrew's room, and Eugene took a photo of it last year.
Anyway, I also found out that there were vacant areas in the walls in the kitchen, up thru Andrew's bedroom walls (on the exterior wall) where pipes could go but none were there.

So maybe there were vacant areas in the walls as described by Michael?

I read a description in the papers of one of the searches back in 1892 where they took floorboards up in the attic which was unfinished- not nailed down. That could not be confirmed. In fact, that was thought not to be true.

Kat @ Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:29 am wrote:My response was to how the buildings were made back then- but now I think I recall something could be dropped from the attic area where Bridget's room was down thru the same system, thru Andrew's old fireplace all the way to the cellar.
It was only in the last 2 years we heard about that opening to the old fireplace in Andrew's room, and Eugene took a photo of it last year.
Anyway, I also found out that there were vacant areas in the walls in the kitchen, up thru Andrew's bedroom walls (on the exterior wall) where pipes could go but none were there.

So maybe there were vacant areas in the walls as described by Michael?

I read a description in the papers of one of the searches back in 1892 where they took floorboards up in the attic which was unfinished- not nailed down. That could not be confirmed. In fact, that was thought not to be true.

Modern houses are built with "fire stops" which are short 2 x 4's, or 2 x 6's about 14" long nailed horizontaly in between the upright studs. These are built into the walls to slow down the spread of fire caused by the electrical wires which run below these fire stops. If the wires shorted and caught the wood on fire, the stops would slow down the upward spread of flame. There were no electrical systems in the 1840's so fire stops were not needed although they still add stability to the structure.

So it would not surprise me if an object could be dropped between the studs in Bridget's room and fall all the way to the basement, provided the studs ran from the basement to the roof line. Now days studs are much shorter and sill plates are used which of course would prevent anything from falling.

-1bigsteve (o:

I just had my pipes re-done and did see the "fire stops." In fact the plumbers made sure I saw them and explained them to me.

These horizontal wood pieces are the "fire stops."

In Fall River buildings with ballon framing rarely had fire stops. A fire stop in a house such as 92 Second would be the floors. On your average 3 family with fire stops, these would be created by extending the floors to the outside wall. Usually there was one fire stop and it was placed between the top of the first floor window and the bottom of the 2nd floor window. This was usually the 2nd level floor, or at the floor. These were also placed around the chimneys at floor level. Some builders did not extend the floor to the outside wall but instead used 2x4s, but mostly at floor level.


I have "fish" hundreds and hundreds of buildings in Fall River.


If working on the 3rd floor, I would place a string with a weight on it and lower it out a window till the weight rested at the foundation top at the sill and measure the string used. Then after drilling a hole in the wall on the third floor I would drop the string into the wall and the weight would begin it's trip down again, but inside the wall. If you use up the entire string measured, you know your weight rests on the sill at the foundation.

Now, if there is a fire stop the string would stop almost half way. You would measure how much string you had left and take that measerment and measure from the foundation up.

Usually this ended up at the 2nd level floor. You would measure up another couple of inches and drill a hole in the side of the building. You would pull out your string.

Then measure down a couple of inches so you can get around the "fire stop." Then you would drill back in the wall and re-drop your string. This time you are hanging off a ladder outside.

If successful, your string will drop the rest of the way. You would then drill a hole under the shingles near the foundation and pull out your string again. Now you tie on your wire and begin pulling it up from the foundation to the 3rd floor.

Once you are done only 8 or 12 inches of the wire would be outside the house. (the part that went around the fire stop) Or you could tuck it by removing a couple of shingles to hide the entire wire.

I have done this Hundreds of times, Hundreds.

Most 3 family homes had open walls. The better built ones, especially the ones with much trim and overhangs, had fire stops, but not always.

For every house I found with a fire stop, between 12 and 15 did not.

Now please allow me to exercise my arrogance and say I was good at my job, very good. If I could not get a wire down, chances were no one could. It is what I did for a living, and I did it for a long, long time.

From this I had to learn a lot about construction of Fall River 3 family homes. At times I would crawl into lofts which no one had stepped foot in almost 50 years. And the dust was that thick. So please understand, I did this for a living. I recieved a real good education on New England 3 family home construction.

ARE the walls all open at 92? Did they use ballon construction? To tell you the truth, I do not know. I may be wrong, but am willing to make a wager they are, from attic to foundation.

mbhenty @ Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:45 pm wrote:
ARE the walls all open at 92? Did they use ballon construction? To tell you the truth, I do not know. I may be wrong, but am willing to make a wager they are, from attic to foundation.

Your expertise is incredibly useful. I wonder if the current owner would let you go fishing.

Yes Wordweaver, that would be fun!!! huh! I would go into the attic and come out the next day.

In drilling we would use drill bits that were anywhere from 9 inches to 3 feet long. If you did not judge the angle correctly you would come out in someones livingroom floor. They were almost never happy.