Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I guess I will tell you, since you asked, Doug-Oh, that girls are pretty much in agreement as to what is heavily.

It's interesting to read some input as to what symptoms can manifest as a miscarriage or abortion.

Prelim
Dr. Dolan
188+

Q. Do you remember a pail in the cellar?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And were there some clothes or napkins in that pail?
A. Yes Sir, three.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. I examined them casually.
Q. Did you take them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were they taken by anybody?
A. By the officer, officer Mullaly I think I told to take them.
Q. What was subsequently done with them, if you know?
A. Nothing; they were left down stairs in the marshal's office, and nothing further done with them.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you become satisfied that they had no connection with this case?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton.) We claim nothing at present.
__________

Trial
550
MR. ROBINSON. It is agreed that that pail contained the napkins which had been worn within a day or two by the defendant,---the ordinary monthly sickness---and as to that fact that is all we propose to put in. We do not care to go into the details. It is also agreed that the sickness ended Wednesday night.

Kat @ Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:41 am wrote:What is the timeline I keep reading about here?

In the Trickey/McHenry article it is alleged that a so called "Mrs. Chace" told about an argument she and her husband heard between Lizzie and Andrew. It is claimed by some that it is here that Andrew mentions Lizzie being in trouble. In other words pregnant. the problem is the time of the alleged argument. Here is what was "Mrs. Chace" said:


Mrs. Chace's Evidence

Mrs. Frederick Chace, wife of Frederick Chace, owner of the Chace mills at Fall River, and residing at 198 Fourth street in that city, will testify:

I have known Andrew J. Borden and his wife for over 15 years. On the 3rd day of August, 1892, early in the afternoon, I met Mr. Borden on Main street in Fall River, and talked to him a few minutes. He asked me to come over that night with my husband, and I promised him we would and I asked him how he and how Mrs. Borden were.

He said she was very well but he was troubled a great deal about what he had talked of previously, and he thought if I and my husband came over it would cheer him up a good deal. I told him we would certainly come and then left him. About 7:30 o'clock that evening my husband, my daughter, Mrs. Manchester, and myself arrived at the Borden house.


Now, the conflict is this: Alice Russell testified in court talking about the discussion she had with Lizzie the night before the murders. She said this in court:

Q: Now I will call your attention, if you please, to a visit she made to you upon the Wednesday night of August 3 of last year. Did she make such a visit?

A. Yes, sir

Q. About what time did she make it?

A. I am not sure, I think about seven


Later, Alice is asked about when did Lizzie leave:


A. I think she went at nine, or five minutes after. That is as near as I know.


So, Alice places Lizzie at her house at the time that this "Mrs. Chace" claims the argument took place. Of course what is even more interesting is that Alice is a real person and she testified under oath in a court of law. No Mrs. Chace testified. I don't even think she has found to be a real person.

Kat @ Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:45 am wrote:I guess I will tell you, since you asked, Doug-Oh, that girls are pretty much in agreement as to what is heavily.

It's interesting to read some input as to what symptoms can manifest as a miscarriage or abortion.

What is even more interestin is all of this talk about miscarriage and abortion and yet, there's no evidence Lizzie was even pregnant.

DWilly @ Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:19 am wrote:

Kat @ Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:41 am wrote:What is the timeline I keep reading about here?

In the Trickey/McHenry article it is alleged that a so called "Mrs. Chace" told about an argument she and her husband heard between Lizzie and Andrew. It is claimed by some that it is here that Andrew mentions Lizzie being in trouble. In other words pregnant. the problem is the time of the alleged argument. Here is what was "Mrs. Chace" said:


Mrs. Chace's Evidence

Mrs. Frederick Chace, wife of Frederick Chace, owner of the Chace mills at Fall River, and residing at 198 Fourth street in that city, will testify:

I have known Andrew J. Borden and his wife for over 15 years. On the 3rd day of August, 1892, early in the afternoon, I met Mr. Borden on Main street in Fall River, and talked to him a few minutes. He asked me to come over that night with my husband, and I promised him we would and I asked him how he and how Mrs. Borden were.

He said she was very well but he was troubled a great deal about what he had talked of previously, and he thought if I and my husband came over it would cheer him up a good deal. I told him we would certainly come and then left him. About 7:30 o'clock that evening my husband, my daughter, Mrs. Manchester, and myself arrived at the Borden house.


Now, the conflict is this: Alice Russell testified in court talking about the discussion she had with Lizzie the night before the murders. She said this in court:

Q: Now I will call your attention, if you please, to a visit she made to you upon the Wednesday night of August 3 of last year. Did she make such a visit?

A. Yes, sir

Q. About what time did she make it?

A. I am not sure, I think about seven


Later, Alice is asked about when did Lizzie leave:


A. I think she went at nine, or five minutes after. That is as near as I know.


So, Alice places Lizzie at her house at the time that this "Mrs. Chace" claims the argument took place. Of course what is even more interesting is that Alice is a real person and she testified under oath in a court of law. No Mrs. Chace testified. I don't even think she has found to be a real person.

Is that from the Prelim, or the Trial documents ?


Tracy...

I think most of all know that Henry Trickey's article was a hoax that was rushed into print. The police were laying for Trickey after he exposed some scandal in the Boston PD. (As I remember it from Brown's book, or was it someplace else?).
Aside from Alice Russell, was there any testimony as to Lizzie's whereabouts that Wed night? Not that I doubt this remembered testimony given under oath at the Trial.

Okay, perhaps I put that badly. Sometimes it's difficult to frame questions or comments exactly right - particularly when they approach a subject as personal as this one. I have no idea; nor do I know where to find such things out; and on reflection I probably don't want to know what I would discover If I did find out (the "TMI principle" at work, dontchaknow.) At any rate...

My thought was something along the lines of "Yaknow, it really doesn't take much blood at all to give the appearance of a big mess."

I had read the testimony quoted above before - but thanks!

(No need of a shovel either. From the looks of things the one I have here does just fine!)

There is One Big Fact that trumps the "14 reasons".
A jury said Lizzie didn't do it. Case closed. (Or is it?).

theebmonique @ Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:35 pm wrote:

DWilly @ Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:19 am wrote:

Kat @ Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:41 am wrote:What is the timeline I keep reading about here?

In the Trickey/McHenry article it is alleged that a so called "Mrs. Chace" told about an argument she and her husband heard between Lizzie and Andrew. It is claimed by some that it is here that Andrew mentions Lizzie being in trouble. In other words pregnant. the problem is the time of the alleged argument. Here is what was "Mrs. Chace" said:


Mrs. Chace's Evidence

Mrs. Frederick Chace, wife of Frederick Chace, owner of the Chace mills at Fall River, and residing at 198 Fourth street in that city, will testify:

I have known Andrew J. Borden and his wife for over 15 years. On the 3rd day of August, 1892, early in the afternoon, I met Mr. Borden on Main street in Fall River, and talked to him a few minutes. He asked me to come over that night with my husband, and I promised him we would and I asked him how he and how Mrs. Borden were.

He said she was very well but he was troubled a great deal about what he had talked of previously, and he thought if I and my husband came over it would cheer him up a good deal. I told him we would certainly come and then left him. About 7:30 o'clock that evening my husband, my daughter, Mrs. Manchester, and myself arrived at the Borden house.


Now, the conflict is this: Alice Russell testified in court talking about the discussion she had with Lizzie the night before the murders. She said this in court:

Q: Now I will call your attention, if you please, to a visit she made to you upon the Wednesday night of August 3 of last year. Did she make such a visit?

A. Yes, sir

Q. About what time did she make it?

A. I am not sure, I think about seven


Later, Alice is asked about when did Lizzie leave:


A. I think she went at nine, or five minutes after. That is as near as I know.


So, Alice places Lizzie at her house at the time that this "Mrs. Chace" claims the argument took place. Of course what is even more interesting is that Alice is a real person and she testified under oath in a court of law. No Mrs. Chace testified. I don't even think she has found to be a real person.

Is that from the Prelim, or the Trial documents ?


Tracy...

Alice's came from the trial. The made up story about Chace came from an article by Trickey and McHenry.

Thanks for the transcription!

So the *timeline* is just where these "Chaces'" come into the story, right?

It's still a good point, thanks.

Ray, Mrs. Borden told Mrs. Dr. Bowen that Lizzie had gone out that evening to Alice Russell's too.

Prelim
478
Mrs. Dr. Bowen
Q. Were you in the house Wednesday at all?
A. I was there Wednesday night soon after six o'clock.
Q. Did you see Lizzie at all Wednesday?
A. I saw her go down the street just before I went in there.
Q. You saw Lizzie go down the street just before you went in there, and that was sometime after six o'clock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have any talk with Mrs. Borden about their being sick?
A. I did, I asked her how they were feeling. She said she was feeling better. Mr. Borden said he was not feeling very well. I says "I suppose Lizzie is better, for I saw her going out." Mrs. Borden says "yes, she has not been out all day, but she has gone now to see Alice Russell."
Q. That was after you had seen Lizzie go down street yourself?
A. Yes Sir, which was soon after I had eaten my supper; we have supper at six o'clock.