Lizzie Borden Society Forum

This is Winward, from the Preliminary Hearing. The page numbers confuse me - it's either page 358 or 386 it starts on. (They must have used an up-the-country transcriptionist. It's W-i-n-w-a-r-d, for pity's sake!)

JAMES WINWOOD.
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What is your name?
A. James Winwood.
Q. You are an undertaker?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have something to do with the bodies of Andrew J. Borden and Mrs. Borden?
A. I had charge of them, yes sir.
Q. Were you the one who removed the effects from the body?
A. I took the things out of Andrew J. Borden's clothes.
Q. Did you give whatever you took to Dr. Dolan?
A. I did.
Q. Without bothering to produce them, will you kindly tell me what they were, in the shape of
valuables?
A. I think there was $78. in bills in the pocket book.
Q. In a pocket book?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What pocket was that pocket book in?
A. In the inside pocket in the coat, I should think.
Q. In the coat pocket?
A. Yes Sir, inside pocket, inside the coat.
Q. Not inside the vest. What else in the shape of valuables?
A. In that pocket there was some minor papers, which we did not examine into, just opened them,
and saw there was no more money in there, or notes. That is all we examined for.
Q. There was a watch and chain?
A. Yes Sir, in his vest.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. In his pants pockets some loose change, two or three dollars in silver.
Q. What size bills were these?
A. I think about $5.
Q. All in bills?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Whatever you took, you turned over to Dr. Dolan, the Medical Examiner?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you find anything valuable in her pockets?
A. I did not have anything to do with her pocket at all.
(Some things are brought in wrapped in a handkerchief.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
Q. (Mr. Jennings) Were these keys all upon the ring?
A. I do not remember; I should think they were; but I would not be positive about it.
Q. Did you not find either of the keys loose in his pocket?
A. I could not say; I do not recollect.
Q. You do not remember whether you put any of the keys on the ring after you found them, or not?
A. I did not put any of them on the ring.
Q. So all the keys that are on the ring now, so far as you know, were there when you took them from
his pocket?
A. They were.
Q. Do you recollect whether you found either of the keys in his vest pocket?
A. I should say not.
Q. You think they were all in his pants pocket?
A. Yes.

May I ask why certain words are now highlighted in Dolan's testimony?

We passed each other posting, DougOh!

Thanks Doug- I was searching! The highlighting was my own to illustrate who handled the body and what was taken from the body. I would think his hands had to be shifted to get into his watch pocket and his pants pockets at the least.

'salright Shelley. I'd have found it a bit quicker but forgot and looked for "Winward" instead!

Hey DougOh! He doesn't say here if Andrew was wearing the clothes when he took the things.
If Andrew was stripped before his pockets were emptied, then Winward might not have disturbed the body before the photo. I think there is a cop (Medley?) who early on did check for watch and chain?
Thank you for the transcription of the testimony.

You know you're right - but Winward was never asked specifically the circumstances under which he obtained the keys - or rather Andrew Borden's effects, of which the keys were part. That last "Yes" there looks to be the spot where the subject of keys was dropped entirely.

The next line of questioning of Winward deals with the appearance of the bodies and their preparation for burial.

Did we learn that the photos were taken around 3:30? And the autopsies begun about 4:30? So you think there is a possibility that the pockets were gone through after the clothing was removed from(and maybe even cut off) the bodies before they were put down in the washroom? It is a practice that when corpses are stiff, very overweight or unwieldy, often the clothing is simply cut up the back and slipped off.

I had never stopped to think about it, but I guess Emma must have had some input into what Winward dressed Abby and Andrew in for their open coffin funeral. I am picturing Winward and his assistants tightening Abby into her corset and dress. I wonder if her dress and Andrew's suit coat and shirt were simply slit up the back. Dressing a dead body is no easy matter.

Give or take about 15 minutes and that'd be right as far as the timing of the photography is concerned. Somebody mentioned the time of the diningroom autopsies, but I forget who it was offhand. I'll see if i can dig it up... or...unearth it? Hmmm...

I always picture Emma walking in on all of this unawares -she was probably flattened! SHE needed the bromo-caffeine!

Ahhhhh yes... the elder sister, called blissfully unaware and - wham !

If memory serves, she arrived back at the house there...either just before or not long into the autopsies....

What I wouldn't give to have seen her face coming into that kitchen. I wonder who told her the news? If Lizzie were still up on her couch, was it Alice? Dr. Bowen? Do we know?

We have never been able to find out just what Dr. Bowen said to Emma in his telegram.

Receiving a telegram from him, by itself, must have been a shocker. She had to realize something was wrong no matter how easy the wording was. Coming home to a double murder would be crushing to anyone.

Of course that's if we assume Emma entirely innocent. If she had foreknowledge then her best Sarah Bernhardt abilities would be called upon.

Well, it is the quiet ones we have to worry about- but it's hard to imagine Emma having much talent in the area of acting and high drama. Didn't she scrub up the mess in the sitting room? Some pragmatic people just carry on, taking things in stride and going about what is expected and needed in crises. She hits me as one of those.

I wonder if Emma shared the contents of that telegram with the Brownells- if they saw it?

Scanning Emma's trial testimony presently. She never mentions it herself that I've yet found - but again, nobody asked the question.

That's a great question, Shelley. How much the Brownell's would say is another. Did they really see Lizzie's letter to Emma is another one?

So little was written about Emma's arrival back home. Was it a policeman who met her at the station (I seem to recall something like that) and just what did that person tell her?

And what could she possibly have thought of the crowds on Second St.? Lizzie having a yard sale?

With all the strained interactions going on in that home it would not be hard for Emma to guess what could have occurred. Someone's heart attack at best, or someone going off the deep end at worst. I'm sure she had enough time during the ride home to brace herself.