Lizzie Borden Society Forum

We don't know that Morse did not stay in contact with Emma and Lizzie after the trial, do we? I don't recall anything definitive on this. He was known to come East quite often, wasn't he?

It is a good speculation that Andrew was preparing to *hand over* say- "Guardianship" of- the girls to Morse to keep under his protection after he himself died. That sounds possible and in character to me. I think no matter what Andrew was up to in discussions that Wednesday with JVM, Andrew possibly did not trust those girls to be able stewards of his fortune.

theebmonique @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:00 pm wrote:Juries have been wrong. Many a wrongly convicted person will be forever thankful for DNA testing/technology.

There is missing information in this case, as we all know. Had the jury had all, or at least MORE information ie; an eyewitness, a weapon, or a suspect 'caught in the act', etc., the verdict may just have been quite different.

Tracy...

Yes, William S Borden would have been caught if Ellan Eagan told all at the time of the murder. The police would have little trouble putting 2 + 2 together to track down the likely suspects. IMO
We know they sent (?) someone to Albany to check out the former bookkeeper. {Kat, pls correct if my memory failed me.]

PS For the following post, know that the existence of William S Borden is not a rumor, nor is his being a cousin. Agree?

RayS @ Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:54 am wrote:

theebmonique @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:00 pm wrote:Juries have been wrong. Many a wrongly convicted person will be forever thankful for DNA testing/technology.

There is missing information in this case, as we all know. Had the jury had all, or at least MORE information ie; an eyewitness, a weapon, or a suspect 'caught in the act', etc., the verdict may just have been quite different.

Tracy...

Yes, William S Borden would have been caught if Ellan Eagan told all at the time of the murder. The police would have little trouble putting 2 + 2 together to track down the likely suspects. IMO
We know they sent (?) someone to Albany to check out the former bookkeeper. {Kat, pls correct if my memory failed me.]

Just to be clear, my post was in NO WAY referring to anything having to do with William Borden. I was talking about legitimate, documentable evidence...not some unsubstantiated rumor.





Tracy...

Kat @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:20 pm wrote:We don't know that Morse did not stay in contact with Emma and Lizzie after the trial, do we? I don't recall anything definitive on this. He was known to come East quite often, wasn't he?

It is a good speculation that Andrew was preparing to *hand over* say- "Guardianship" of- the girls to Morse to keep under his protection after he himself died. That sounds possible and in character to me. I think no matter what Andrew was up to in discussions that Wednesday with JVM, Andrew possibly did not trust those girls to be able stewards of his fortune.

It does seem, in my opinion, that John Morse was one of the people that Andrew really trusted. He trusted his judgement when it came to business deals, trusted him to take care of certain things. If he was going to appoint anyone to "take care" of the girls Morse would be a logical choice given the relationship they had with Abby. I suppose I believe he could have been thinking, possibly, that with their tastes the girls might run through their inheritance money like water through a sieve. But what I keep coming back to is, what would've made him think the girls needed taken care of after he was gone? It was stated in testimony by Morse and the surviving Borden women that Andrew had spoken about once having a will. At least he had to Morse. What happened to that will is not certain. But evidently he had not made any provisions to have the girls or Abby taken care of by John Morse then. So what had changed?

Can anyone give me a history of where John Morse lived and when? I'm getting myself confused.

Never mind- I found the answer to my own question-- Kat had posted this back in 02. It's interesting to note that it mentions Davis the butcher was blind when Morse was living with him, so he couldn't have been involved in the murders like it is sometimes mentioned.



Kat
1141 posts Mar-13th-02 8:28 AM


1. "The New Bedford Evening Standard--MORSE"



Did She Or Didn't She? is the title of this over-sized soft-back book that reproduces the newspaper articles from the Evening Standard, beginning Aug.4th, 1892.

From Aug,5th, 1892 :4 , FRIDAY (remember the press was chaotic at this time):

"THE SUSPECTED MAN
__________________
John V. Morse, a Well-to-do Western Land Owner
__________________
He Lived in the Family of Isaac C. Davis of South Dartmouth
__________________
Spoken of as a Man of Excellent Character
__________________

......John V. Morse (who was located at South Dartmouth), a relative of the murdered man, had been living for a year with Isaac C. Davis, and that he had gone to Fall River the day before the tragedy.

Calling upon Mr. Davis, who lives on Potter's Hill, just before entering the village of South Dartmouth, much was learned concerning Morse, who in fact has been a member of the Davis family for about a year. Mr. Davis, who is a butcher, is blind, and he has unbounded faith in him. For that matter Morse has been his adviser in affairs of business, and with his son William a close relationship has existed for some time.

Mr. Davis greeted the STANDARD man kindly and furnished much material that has hitherto been unknown to the public.

John Vinecum (sic) Morse, he states, was born in Fall River, and about 30 years ago came to South Dartmouth looking for work. He was given a job by Mr. Davis, and proving to be a steady and industrious young fellow the family soon learned to think a great deal of him.. After working for Mr. Davis a few years he packed up his clothes and went West. At first he settled in Illinois, buying and selling land. In this he was very successful and is supposed to have accumulated wealth. Finally he settled in Hastings, Mill County, Iowa. About two years ago he came East with a large number of horses of his own raising, and after disposing of many of these animals at Warren, R.I., where he has an uncle, he made his appearance at Padanaram. There he disposed of the remainder of the horses, and about a year ago took up his residence at the house of Mr. Davis. As before stated, Mr. Davis is blind and Morse has been his adviser. His judgement in matters of business was considered good, and in nearly every particular his advice was asked.

Allen @ Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:22 am wrote:

Kat @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:20 pm wrote:We don't know that Morse did not stay in contact with Emma and Lizzie after the trial, do we? I don't recall anything definitive on this. He was known to come East quite often, wasn't he?

It is a good speculation that Andrew was preparing to *hand over* say- "Guardianship" of- the girls to Morse to keep under his protection after he himself died. That sounds possible and in character to me. I think no matter what Andrew was up to in discussions that Wednesday with JVM, Andrew possibly did not trust those girls to be able stewards of his fortune.

It does seem, in my opinion, that John Morse was one of the people that Andrew really trusted. He trusted his judgement when it came to business deals, trusted him to take care of certain things. If he was going to appoint anyone to "take care" of the girls Morse would be a logical choice given the relationship they had with Abby. I suppose I believe he could have been thinking, possibly, that with their tastes the girls might run through their inheritance money like water through a sieve. But what I keep coming back to is, what would've made him think the girls needed taken care of after he was gone? It was stated in testimony by Morse and the surviving Borden women that Andrew had spoken about once having a will. At least he had to Morse. What happened to that will is not certain. But evidently he had not made any provisions to have the girls or Abby taken care of by John Morse then. So what had changed?

This makes a good degree of sense. If Andrew had to trust anyone to carry on for him, it probably would have been John Morse. If Andrew wanted to set up a trust fund and appoint Morse as administrator and possibly executor of his estate, it would have been a bit more complicated than a simple will, but it could be done. This would likely have been discussed with Morse beforehand. I don't know why, but I've always had the idea that Andrew might have wanted to leave the Swansea farm to Morse, he would have appreciated it.

The last recorded exchange between Knowlton and Morse at the inquest was this about Andrew's previous will (106):

Q. Did he talk to you any other time about a will?
A. I think that is all.
Q. That is the first and last time?
A. Years ago, out West at my place one time, he said he had a will; several years ago he told me he had destroyed it.
Q. How long ago did he tell you he had destroyed it?
A. 15 years ago.
Q. Did he tell you anything about the contents of the will?
A. He did not.

"15 years" before was 1877. One can check the timeline to see what was happening just before 1877, during 1877 and just after that year and surmise?
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... 9-1892.htm

Excluding Abby and an attorney who would have drawn up a will, John Morse seems to be the only person Andrew discussed a will with in any depth. Except for a passing reference to a will made to Charles Cook (page 30, Witness Statements) to the effect that he needed to make a will, it seems Andrew didn't discuss the matter with anyone.

Look at all those people who died around 1877-1878!

Not just death, but the concept of ending something, like Andrew's mutual retirement along with Almy from their real estate partnership. Andrew probably confronted his own mortality during that time, it's perfectly natural to do so. He destroyed an existing will, but I wonder what might have prevented its replacement. I could understand if the will destroyed was an old one written while Sarah was alive and he was reminded that it no longer was pertinent.