Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Hard-boiled eggs?? You're an evil feller, Yooper, and that's a fact!

Why does the man who came at 9 am drop out of the case?
It could be Clegg because he was bugging Andrew all week and he was British.

Also, we never figured out about how Andrew got his newspaper- delivered or in the mail or what? Because when I researched to write "Jay Gould's Yacht" I found that the reference to its sale was in the August 4th paper. I have wondered how the Aug 4 paper got into the house without opening a door, if that conversation at breakfast really happened between Morse and Andrew.

So- Supposing:
If the paper came and Morse got it early- that could be open door #1.
Then if a man came at 9 am, that could be door open #2.
Then when Andrew came home would be door open #3- and closed and locked each time afterwards.

Yooper @ Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:44 pm wrote:Judy, that's perfect! Peering out the front closet door! Check the expression around the eyes and compare it to Lizzie's post-trial photo--the one with the chair.

Thanks, Jeff. I saw this photo of Hannibal and thought the same thing... it's perfect. Just had to share it. It is the look in Hannibal's eyes and the fact that he is hiding behind a curtain that I felt, it was a perfect picture to post. You're right about the expression around Hannibal eyes compared to Lizzie's post-trial photo.

I see the same eye expression in the second photo of Lizzie; not only that check out the slight smile in the photo of Hannibal compared to Lizzie's smile in both of these photos of her. It is down right uncanny.

(Click photos of Lizzie to enlarge).

doug65oh @ Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:30 am wrote:Hard-boiled eggs?? You're an evil feller, Yooper, and that's a fact!

I used to wonder why all my hats developed holes in the crown! Dem ain't antaleurs Toivo, dem's horns!

Kat @ Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:48 am wrote:Why does the man who came at 9 am drop out of the case?
It could be Clegg because he was bugging Andrew all week and he was British.

Also, we never figured out about how Andrew got his newspaper- delivered or in the mail or what? Because when I researched to write "Jay Gould's Yacht" I found that the reference to its sale was in the August 4th paper. I have wondered how the Aug 4 paper got into the house without opening a door, if that conversation at breakfast really happened between Morse and Andrew.

So- Supposing:
If the paper came and Morse got it early- that could be open door #1.
Then if a man came at 9 am, that could be door open #2.
Then when Andrew came home would be door open #3- and closed and locked each time afterwards.

The 9 am visitor does seem to disappear, oddly enough. I could understand someone not wanting to be associated with the Borden house so near in time to Abby's murder.

Maybe someone retrieving the newspaper wouldn't be given a second thought. It seems like an automatic type of occurrence, done without thinking about it.

What may be more telling is when the door was found bolted and locked, the more unusual circumstance during the day. First when Andrew arrived, which implies during Abby's murder, and second, when officer Allen arrived, which implies during Andrew's murder.

[quote="Yooper @ Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:13 What may be more telling is when the door was found bolted and locked, the more unusual circumstance during the day. First when Andrew arrived, which implies during Abby's murder, and second, when officer Allen arrived, which implies during Andrew's murder.[/quote]



Exactly! That's what I was trying to point out.

We can pretty well eliminate the 9 am visitor as the bearer of the note, can't we?

I thought someone saw a young man go up to the door and then saw the door slam shut on him. Am I wrong?

If it is so, then he could have had a note.

I can only recall one visitor to the house being mentioned, the one at 9 am. If that is correct, then that would have to be the person delivering the note. Whoever answered the door then received the note. John Morse left the house prior to 9 am and said nothing about receiving a note, so he did not answer the door. Bridget mentioned nothing about receiving a note or answering the door at 9 am. Lizzie said she heard her father shut the door after the 9 am visit, she must have heard his voice. There would be no need to explain to Andrew that Abby had a note if Lizzie thought he had received it. The note probably came at another time, if at all. If Lizzie received it, she would have been able to describe the delivery person and the time of delivery, and it would have been in her best interest to do so. Neither Bridget nor John Morse received a note at any time, they would have said so if they had. This leaves Abby or Andrew to receive the note. I expect Abby would have opened a note in Andrew's presence and told him the content if he had taken it and given it to her. The exchange with Lizzie about the note would probably been in response to Andrew asking if Abby was still gone on her errand rather than simply "where's Abby?". The other possibility is that Lizzie was unaware that Andrew already knew about the note, and the information was simply offered without a question from Andrew. The simplest explanation is that Abby received the note herself, but not at the front door at 9 am.

Yooper @ Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:01 pm wrote: Lizzie said she heard her father shut the door after the 9 am visit, she must have heard his voice.

But who knows if Lizzie was telling the truth?

Another possibility is that she recognized his unique way of closing the door.

There may have been no 9 am visitor if there is nothing but Lincoln to corroborate Lizzie's statement. I don't know what her sources were.

Please refresh my memory. Wasn't Abby supposed to babysit little Abby while the Whiteheads went to Rocky Point for the Police picnic. Didn't these plans change because little Abby got sick? Wouldn't the Whiteheads have needed to advise Abby she wasn't needed to care for the child? Part of the reason for no note is because Abby might have had the message given orally to her by one of the Whiteheads or another member of her family, and Lizzie just assumed that Abby would have received a "polite note" the way the gentile people did things.

Why did the Whiteheads go to the police picnic anyway? Maybe they planned to knock Abby off for her share of Andrew's money. What better alibi than to claim to be with the police. They are the ones who obviously knew that most of the police wouldn't be around that day.

Abby would have let them in. She may have even givien a Whitehead access to her own quarters. What better place to hide than in the victims' own room. As was apparent afterwards, they were definitely interested in the money.

I think anyone who wanted to get at Andrew's money by way of Abby would have had to make sure he preceded her in death. If they were unaware of that technicality and killed Abby first, then they had to hope that Lizzie would not discover her body. Then they had to dodge Lizzie all morning while hanging around based upon the remote possibility of having a chance to kill Andrew without witnesses. It is the same problem as with any other intruder-not-known-to-Lizzie scenario, while it did work out that way, there was no way of knowing that beforehand and it meant playing unbelievably long odds.

While a Whitehead would likely have readily gained access to the house if Abby answered the door, how likely would it be for them to spare Lizzie? The more dead bodies, the more random the crime and the more difficult to assign a motive.

Cynthia, wasn't that Lil' Abbie Potter who said all that about babysitting them, 75 years later in a news item?

That's an interesting exchange- you and Yooper- about the Whiteheads! I love new suspects and I've thought of them too.. If Lizzie didn't seem to know the experts could tell the great time lapse between killings, maybe a Whitehead couldn't either?
Good one.
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Angel, you had said originally about the front door being opened 3 times. That is when I said I didn't quite understand what you meant. Yooper shows how it might have been opened 2 times and you said that was what you were getting at. So I'm back to being confused. I tried to show how the door *might* have been opened 3 times.
Also, The door slamming thing you mention I think was already answered as coming from a not-trusted source I believe? You might check back a page- maybe Harry replied to that?

Kat, I didn't mean that the actual door had been opened three times. What I meant was that it was Lizzie who generally unlocked the deadbolt in the morning. Then, if there was a visitor, the lock would have had to be opened to open the door. Then Bridget would have to open the deadbolt a third time to let Andrew in when he couldn't get in.I should have been more clear.

Plus I do now realize you are concentrating on a note coming to the door as the thing you are interested in. Thanks for your response.