Should Andrew and Abby be exhumned ?
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Shelley
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Lest Starrs be mislabelled as a publicity freak, he actually was INVITED by the Lizzie Centennial Conference to speak on forensic evidence. He has as you know participated by request in many famous and celebrity cases (both recent and historic personalities). I do not know if it was his idea to do the radar scans and attempt skull exhumation, or if the idea was suggested to him- in any event, he gave an excellent presentation and yes, we did learn one or two new things from the scans. Nothing which alters the case of course. Is knowledge for the sake of knowledge justifiable? Sometimes.
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Kat
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I am late to this topic but I have some comments.
First off, there is a confusion here between the hatchets. In the preliminary hearing, the claw-head hatchet was considered to be the likely weapon. So the results of Wood's examination are from that hatchet, not the handleless hatchet (which we call the *HH* in shorthand).
That testimony shows that suspicious stains which looked like blood were not, and proclaims that the hair was supposed to be cow hair. Also there was fiber. Why this hatchet fell out of favor as the weapon is not known to me.
Prelim
Prof. Dr. Wood
372
Q. What did you find in the trunk?
A. The trunk contained a hatchet, two axes, a blue dress skirt, a blue dress waist, a white skirt, a starched skirt, a lounge cover, and a large envelope which contained three small envelopes, these small envelopes being marked, one of them, "hair taken from A. J. Borden", the second one, "hair taken from Mrs. A. J. Borden", and the third one "hair taken from the hatchet," or "from hatchet". On the 16th of August I received from City Marshal Hilliard, personally, in Boston, a paper box containing a pair of shoes or ties, and a pair of black stockings.
Q. Women's stockings?
A. Yes Sir. Of these substances, I examined the hatchet --- take them in order, as I have given them. The hatchet contained quite a number of suspicious looking spots which looked like blood spots on the head of the hatchet, and also on the handle. These were examined very carefully and thoroughly, but there was no blood spot upon the hatchet, whatever, no trace of blood. The same was true of both axes. Every spot which seemed possible to be a blood stain, and some which did not look to me to be blood stains, I tested very carefully; and there was no blood whatever on either ax. . . .
. . . .
373
The hair taken from hatchet was about one inch long, and under the microscope was seen to have a red brown color, and contained both the root and the point. In other words, it was hair like that from a cow, or an animal, and was not a human hair.
Q. About how long was it?
A. One inch long. . . .
. . .
Q. There was something on the hatchet that had been supposed to be blood, or that was thought to be?
A. Yes Sir. Near the sharp edge of the hatchet on both sides, there was an accumulation of material which looked as though it might be blood, and which under the microscope was seen to be chiefly wood and cotton fiber. There was quite a number of cotton fibres in this patch. . . .
This is in response to Shelley, Tues., March 31, 11:30 am, partial:
First off, there is a confusion here between the hatchets. In the preliminary hearing, the claw-head hatchet was considered to be the likely weapon. So the results of Wood's examination are from that hatchet, not the handleless hatchet (which we call the *HH* in shorthand).
That testimony shows that suspicious stains which looked like blood were not, and proclaims that the hair was supposed to be cow hair. Also there was fiber. Why this hatchet fell out of favor as the weapon is not known to me.
Prelim
Prof. Dr. Wood
372
Q. What did you find in the trunk?
A. The trunk contained a hatchet, two axes, a blue dress skirt, a blue dress waist, a white skirt, a starched skirt, a lounge cover, and a large envelope which contained three small envelopes, these small envelopes being marked, one of them, "hair taken from A. J. Borden", the second one, "hair taken from Mrs. A. J. Borden", and the third one "hair taken from the hatchet," or "from hatchet". On the 16th of August I received from City Marshal Hilliard, personally, in Boston, a paper box containing a pair of shoes or ties, and a pair of black stockings.
Q. Women's stockings?
A. Yes Sir. Of these substances, I examined the hatchet --- take them in order, as I have given them. The hatchet contained quite a number of suspicious looking spots which looked like blood spots on the head of the hatchet, and also on the handle. These were examined very carefully and thoroughly, but there was no blood spot upon the hatchet, whatever, no trace of blood. The same was true of both axes. Every spot which seemed possible to be a blood stain, and some which did not look to me to be blood stains, I tested very carefully; and there was no blood whatever on either ax. . . .
. . . .
373
The hair taken from hatchet was about one inch long, and under the microscope was seen to have a red brown color, and contained both the root and the point. In other words, it was hair like that from a cow, or an animal, and was not a human hair.
Q. About how long was it?
A. One inch long. . . .
. . .
Q. There was something on the hatchet that had been supposed to be blood, or that was thought to be?
A. Yes Sir. Near the sharp edge of the hatchet on both sides, there was an accumulation of material which looked as though it might be blood, and which under the microscope was seen to be chiefly wood and cotton fiber. There was quite a number of cotton fibres in this patch. . . .
This is in response to Shelley, Tues., March 31, 11:30 am, partial:
That hatchet [HH] is quite an enigma. It matches the wound dimensions, it is handy in the house, looks as if it were washed, has a coating not of dust but of wood ash, had blood of an undetermined origin and a cow hair on it. . .
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Kat
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This question is to find out what the handle of the HH was made of:
Trial
Prof Dr Wood
1027
Q. Isn't that oak?
A. I do not know oaks very well.
Q. But you said it was oak?
A. I said I thought it was.
Q. What do you think?
A. It looks to me like an ash piece. I do not know whether it is not, though.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Yooper, you rightly wrote: "It had been subjected to wood and/or coal ashes at the time..."
I am trying to find if the type of ashes were identified, as Shell stated a couple of times it was "wood ash"-- does anyone have a cite?
Trial
Prof Dr Wood
1027
Q. Isn't that oak?
A. I do not know oaks very well.
Q. But you said it was oak?
A. I said I thought it was.
Q. What do you think?
A. It looks to me like an ash piece. I do not know whether it is not, though.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Yooper, you rightly wrote: "It had been subjected to wood and/or coal ashes at the time..."
I am trying to find if the type of ashes were identified, as Shell stated a couple of times it was "wood ash"-- does anyone have a cite?
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Shelley
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When Wood says" The trunk contained a hatchet, two axes" I have wondered if he is referring to the HH, or the claw head hatchet (CHH) and does he mean the 2 axes found heads down in the starch box, or the long-handled claw head hatchet(CHH). I wish more detailed and exacting descriptions had been given for each of the tools, where they had been found,etc. when Wood gave testimony. As he mentions a handle, I suppose that piece of testimony must necessarily rule out the HH.
"Every spot which seemed possible to be a blood stain, and some which did not look to me to be blood stains, I tested very carefully; and there was no blood whatever on either ax. . . . " Is he talking about the two axes which had no traces, or the CHH and the axes?
As for wood or coal ash- either was in the cellar in quantity from either under the washing cauldron, or residue in the furnace from coal, or in the kitchen wood stove. The exciting point, regardless of which type of ash it was, is that it was NOT dust. And there was the appearance of that hatchet having been in contact with water.
Yes the fiber patches were significant- especially if they were cotton from a cotton calico fabric.
"Every spot which seemed possible to be a blood stain, and some which did not look to me to be blood stains, I tested very carefully; and there was no blood whatever on either ax. . . . " Is he talking about the two axes which had no traces, or the CHH and the axes?
As for wood or coal ash- either was in the cellar in quantity from either under the washing cauldron, or residue in the furnace from coal, or in the kitchen wood stove. The exciting point, regardless of which type of ash it was, is that it was NOT dust. And there was the appearance of that hatchet having been in contact with water.
Yes the fiber patches were significant- especially if they were cotton from a cotton calico fabric.
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Kat
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It was wondered under what authority a body could be exhumed (in Mass.).
Fall River Herald News, 24 Jan 1992, says:
[paraphrased] Starrs asked Geophysical Survey Systems of New Salem, N.H. [who, btw, read the monitor and whose equiptment was used] to contact Thomas Gecewicz, Fall River's Public Health Director, for permission to do the ground radar scan.
Gecewicz says he hasn't yet been contacted. When he is, he will "present it to the Board of Health." Says he would cooperate because it is "crypt archaelogy" and that the radar won't affect the graves and is used before water and sewer projects start.
G. says "once a body is in a crypt, it's under the statutory authority of the Health Department."
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I don't think a person's relatives need give permission to exhume. Also, it was wondered why Dr. Dolan cut off and boiled and preserved the heads- for some odd purpose? But I think it was done because at that time, this was kind of a new thing to preserve the evidence. Dr. Dolan wasn't being macabre or wanting to bother the family in doing this, IMO- I think it was thought as an advance in forensics. He wanted Bertha Manchester's head as well. Her father fought over that.
Fall River Herald News, 24 Jan 1992, says:
[paraphrased] Starrs asked Geophysical Survey Systems of New Salem, N.H. [who, btw, read the monitor and whose equiptment was used] to contact Thomas Gecewicz, Fall River's Public Health Director, for permission to do the ground radar scan.
Gecewicz says he hasn't yet been contacted. When he is, he will "present it to the Board of Health." Says he would cooperate because it is "crypt archaelogy" and that the radar won't affect the graves and is used before water and sewer projects start.
G. says "once a body is in a crypt, it's under the statutory authority of the Health Department."
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I don't think a person's relatives need give permission to exhume. Also, it was wondered why Dr. Dolan cut off and boiled and preserved the heads- for some odd purpose? But I think it was done because at that time, this was kind of a new thing to preserve the evidence. Dr. Dolan wasn't being macabre or wanting to bother the family in doing this, IMO- I think it was thought as an advance in forensics. He wanted Bertha Manchester's head as well. Her father fought over that.
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Kat
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In a later publication, Starrs actually wondered if the FRHS had misslabled the skulls in their photos!
I thought that was the most shocking thing from Prof Starrs! He wondered if Abbie's skull was really Andrew's and if Andrew's was really Abbies! I mean, if he read the autopsy reports that descibe the wounds then the skulls become obvious. He was sniping at the curator there, too, in that publication, as well. It was kind of odd, I thought. He did not sound like an informed person on this case in that.
I have read many news articles about his interest in the Borden graves, and I read one of his books on his many exhumation projects.
Maybe he has too many irons in the fire to know this case very well?
I thought that was the most shocking thing from Prof Starrs! He wondered if Abbie's skull was really Andrew's and if Andrew's was really Abbies! I mean, if he read the autopsy reports that descibe the wounds then the skulls become obvious. He was sniping at the curator there, too, in that publication, as well. It was kind of odd, I thought. He did not sound like an informed person on this case in that.
I have read many news articles about his interest in the Borden graves, and I read one of his books on his many exhumation projects.
Maybe he has too many irons in the fire to know this case very well?
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Kat
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If we concentrate on the preliminary hearing for Wood's evidence, it is very clear to which implement he refers.
At that time he had 2 hatchets and 2 axes. No HH yet to confuse things.
He narrows the interesting findings to the clawhead hatchet, which was on the chopping block by the entrance to the furnace room.
Once we read the trial accounts of where things were found it does get confusing. But taken together, in total, we know where each item was found.
The search I made included dust and ashes in response to questions as to what was on the HH. Still want cites here if anyone has them, thanks.
At that time he had 2 hatchets and 2 axes. No HH yet to confuse things.
He narrows the interesting findings to the clawhead hatchet, which was on the chopping block by the entrance to the furnace room.
Once we read the trial accounts of where things were found it does get confusing. But taken together, in total, we know where each item was found.
The search I made included dust and ashes in response to questions as to what was on the HH. Still want cites here if anyone has them, thanks.
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Shelley
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Kat
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Once the HH came out into the light, there were 5 total.
As of the Prelim tho (Aug25-Sept1), there were 2 hatchets and 2 axes, yes. Narrowed down to the clawhead hatchet as the probable weapon in that hearing.
I'm not sure it was stuck in the chopping block.
I would love to see that hatchet!
If you have access to or own the issue of The Hatchet, I made a deep study of the cellar, with diagram- Dec-Jan 2004, page 25. I'm pretty sure the B&B has a copy.
As of the Prelim tho (Aug25-Sept1), there were 2 hatchets and 2 axes, yes. Narrowed down to the clawhead hatchet as the probable weapon in that hearing.
I'm not sure it was stuck in the chopping block.
I would love to see that hatchet!
If you have access to or own the issue of The Hatchet, I made a deep study of the cellar, with diagram- Dec-Jan 2004, page 25. I'm pretty sure the B&B has a copy.
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Shelley
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One could get a nervous breakdown following the hatchet trail. The two hatchets are called, claw head, smaller, larger, broad, long -handled, and a number of other references. There is talk of three axes and two hatchets at one point- and I will not use up a lot of space printing out all the testimony (Prelim).
Hilliard's testimony
Hilliard
Q. What did you receive?
A. I received two hatchets and two axes.
Q. Were the two hatchets which you received the two hatchets which were in Court here yesterday?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. One with the claw hammer head, and the other the small hatchet which you gave to Mr. Wood?
A. Yes Sir, I gave it to Mr. Knowlton, and he ordered it given to Mr. Wood.
Q. Did you made any examination of those hatchets at the time you received them?
A. Not immediately. I looked at them during the forenoon, after Court. I was in Court that morning, if I
remember right.
Sounds as if Wood got the other, smaller hatchet, not the claw head. Honestly, one could run screaming into the woods reading all the hatchet testimony. Then the fact that a hatchet was casually left on the kitchen table for a NEIGHBOR, Mr. Sawyer to fiddle with quite blows my mind.
Sawyer
Q. Did you see the hatchet?
A. I saw the hatchet, yes sir.
Q. How many hatchets did you see?
A. I suppose it was the hatchet, it was the one that was brought up and examined and criticized.
Q. Was that brought up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was it brought up?
A. I think the police officers went down stairs and were searching, and some of them brought up I think
two axes that I know of and this hatchet, and I do not know but what there was another one, but I am not certain.
Q. You do not recollect whether there was one or two hatchets?
A. One or two.
Q. Do you recollect whether one of the hatchets they brought up had a claw on it, or not?
A. The one I saw here yesterday in Court looked very much like it.
Q. Did you examine it yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that look like the hatchet you examined?
A. I did not examine the one that was here. I should say it looked very much like it at the distance I saw
it. I thought it looked a little smaller.
(Mr. Knowlton) I agree that is the one.
Q. Do you know who brought it up?
A. I do not. The first I saw of it, His Honor the Mayor was looking at it.
Q. Mayor Coughlin?
A. Yes.
Q. Anybody else?
A. I did not see any one else at that time. I was going out in the entry, and letting people in and out that
required it.
Q. Where was this that he was examining the hatchet?
A. He stood in the back entry door leading into the kitchen. He stood there.
Q. Do you know what became of the hatchet after he examined it?
A. I do not know whether he laid it on the kitchen table or not, but that is where I found it.
Q. Did you see Dr. Dolan examine it at all?
A. No Sir I did not. It was about the time they were making the autopsy, as I supposed, and he was not
out there then.
Q. That hatchet was left on the table there, was it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You found it there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long should you think that hatchet remained on the kitchen table?
A. I could not say that. I do not know how long it had been there when I picked it up. I saw it there
with some cans of milk setting on the table.
Q. Were the axes there too?
A. I do not distinctly recollect about the axes at that time that they were on the table at all. I saw the
axes.
Q. Where did you see them?
A. Somebody had them. One of them was pretty badly knicked up, kind of open between, gapes
between the blade and handle, no edge to it apparently. That was the only one I thought would be liable
to do the deed.
Q. The one that was lying on the kitchen table?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do when you examined it?
A. I looked it over pretty thoroughly, and I rubbed my finger on the side of it.
Q. You was the man that did the scraping on that hatchet?
A. I do not know as I scraped it any, I rubbed it, and got a dried yellow rust off.
Q. Tell us just what you did.
A. I took it up and looked at it, and turned it over and looked at it, and turned it over and looked at it.
Q. Did you say you rubbed the blade of it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did it appear when you rubbed it?
A. A dry powder, I got off a yellowish powder, apparently rust; it looked to me like a dry rust.
Q. Did you see any indications of blood on it anywhere?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or hair?
A. No Sir.
Q. Now cant you give us any idea of how long that hatchet stayed there?
A. I could not, not definitely. I could answer for its being there when I picked it up; beyond that, I do
not dare to say. I laid it back there again.
One of the policemen even says THREE axes at one point. The stories of what was on the handles and blades of all of these tools is also tricky to follow. And they seemed to be handled by a great many people. I suspect ALL of this testimony would be viewed today with a raised eyebrow as it is so ridiculously inconsistent.
Hilliard's testimony
Hilliard
Q. What did you receive?
A. I received two hatchets and two axes.
Q. Were the two hatchets which you received the two hatchets which were in Court here yesterday?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. One with the claw hammer head, and the other the small hatchet which you gave to Mr. Wood?
A. Yes Sir, I gave it to Mr. Knowlton, and he ordered it given to Mr. Wood.
Q. Did you made any examination of those hatchets at the time you received them?
A. Not immediately. I looked at them during the forenoon, after Court. I was in Court that morning, if I
remember right.
Sounds as if Wood got the other, smaller hatchet, not the claw head. Honestly, one could run screaming into the woods reading all the hatchet testimony. Then the fact that a hatchet was casually left on the kitchen table for a NEIGHBOR, Mr. Sawyer to fiddle with quite blows my mind.
Sawyer
Q. Did you see the hatchet?
A. I saw the hatchet, yes sir.
Q. How many hatchets did you see?
A. I suppose it was the hatchet, it was the one that was brought up and examined and criticized.
Q. Was that brought up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was it brought up?
A. I think the police officers went down stairs and were searching, and some of them brought up I think
two axes that I know of and this hatchet, and I do not know but what there was another one, but I am not certain.
Q. You do not recollect whether there was one or two hatchets?
A. One or two.
Q. Do you recollect whether one of the hatchets they brought up had a claw on it, or not?
A. The one I saw here yesterday in Court looked very much like it.
Q. Did you examine it yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that look like the hatchet you examined?
A. I did not examine the one that was here. I should say it looked very much like it at the distance I saw
it. I thought it looked a little smaller.
(Mr. Knowlton) I agree that is the one.
Q. Do you know who brought it up?
A. I do not. The first I saw of it, His Honor the Mayor was looking at it.
Q. Mayor Coughlin?
A. Yes.
Q. Anybody else?
A. I did not see any one else at that time. I was going out in the entry, and letting people in and out that
required it.
Q. Where was this that he was examining the hatchet?
A. He stood in the back entry door leading into the kitchen. He stood there.
Q. Do you know what became of the hatchet after he examined it?
A. I do not know whether he laid it on the kitchen table or not, but that is where I found it.
Q. Did you see Dr. Dolan examine it at all?
A. No Sir I did not. It was about the time they were making the autopsy, as I supposed, and he was not
out there then.
Q. That hatchet was left on the table there, was it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You found it there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long should you think that hatchet remained on the kitchen table?
A. I could not say that. I do not know how long it had been there when I picked it up. I saw it there
with some cans of milk setting on the table.
Q. Were the axes there too?
A. I do not distinctly recollect about the axes at that time that they were on the table at all. I saw the
axes.
Q. Where did you see them?
A. Somebody had them. One of them was pretty badly knicked up, kind of open between, gapes
between the blade and handle, no edge to it apparently. That was the only one I thought would be liable
to do the deed.
Q. The one that was lying on the kitchen table?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do when you examined it?
A. I looked it over pretty thoroughly, and I rubbed my finger on the side of it.
Q. You was the man that did the scraping on that hatchet?
A. I do not know as I scraped it any, I rubbed it, and got a dried yellow rust off.
Q. Tell us just what you did.
A. I took it up and looked at it, and turned it over and looked at it, and turned it over and looked at it.
Q. Did you say you rubbed the blade of it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did it appear when you rubbed it?
A. A dry powder, I got off a yellowish powder, apparently rust; it looked to me like a dry rust.
Q. Did you see any indications of blood on it anywhere?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or hair?
A. No Sir.
Q. Now cant you give us any idea of how long that hatchet stayed there?
A. I could not, not definitely. I could answer for its being there when I picked it up; beyond that, I do
not dare to say. I laid it back there again.
One of the policemen even says THREE axes at one point. The stories of what was on the handles and blades of all of these tools is also tricky to follow. And they seemed to be handled by a great many people. I suspect ALL of this testimony would be viewed today with a raised eyebrow as it is so ridiculously inconsistent.
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1bigsteve
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Kat @ Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:14 pm wrote:In a later publication, Starrs actually wondered if the FRHS had misslabled the skulls in their photos!
I thought that was the most shocking thing from Prof Starrs! He wondered if Abbie's skull was really Andrew's and if Andrew's was really Abbies! I mean, if he read the autopsy reports that descibe the wounds then the skulls become obvious. He was sniping at the curator there, too, in that publication, as well. It was kind of odd, I thought. He did not sound like an informed person on this case in that.
I have read many news articles about his interest in the Borden graves, and I read one of his books on his many exhumation projects.
Maybe he has too many irons in the fire to know this case very well?
He doesn't know one skull from the other? Suddenly Starrs is not looking too bright.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
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Kat
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Shelley, did you type all that!??
Here is from my Drafts section of my Mail program where I put my hatchet info for a quick search:
Mullaly
Trial
Q. Could you tell those hatchets if you should see them again?
A. I think I could.
Q. (Presenting the claw hatchet and another.) What do you say as to those?
A. That (not the claw hatchet) looks very much like one of them which she took out. There was a spot on this large hatchet (i.e., claw hatchet), a little round spot, a rust spot.
Q. What did you do with the hatchets?
A. I took them out into what I call the wash room and laid them on the floor, and I
stayed there with them until Mr. Fleet came, and when Mr. Fleet came---
Q. Excuse me a moment. Before Mr. Fleet came had you found any other?
A. Those axes I carried from the south wall. I
Page 615
wouldn't say whether it was in that cellar or the cellar adjoining, but I took them down from the south wall of the house and put them on the floor with it, that is, four in all.
Q. And these appear to be the axes, do they?
A. Them axe handles was covered with ashes at the time.
Q. Now then, Mr. Fleet came, you say. After he came was anything done?
A. I gave him---called his attention to them hatchets and axes.
Q. Do you know whether he did anything with either one of the four hatchets?
A. I didn't take notice what he did do with them. He looked at them. I know that.
..........................
617
Q. Did anyone else come in while you and officer Hyde were there or after you came there on this second visit?
A. Officer Fleet came down there again.
Q. Yes. Now what did he do? What did you see him do?
A. He said to me---
Q. No, not what he said to you. But he said something to you, did he?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. Then after that, what did you do? What did you do after Mr. Fleet had said something to you?
A. I showed him where them hatchets were taken from.
Q. What did you show?
A. I showed him a box where Bridget had taken them from.
Q. What did you do after you showed him the box?
A. He took a hatchet out of there.
Q. Can you tell what sort of hatchet he took out?
A. It looked to me as if smaller than one of them. The handle was broken and he put it back, and it was covered with dust or ashes, or something like that. It looked to
me---
Q. In the first place, I will ask you if that, with the wood put in, appears to be the hatchet that Mr. Fleet found in the box?
A. It looks very much like it, only a cleaner break.
~ ~ ~ ~
There were 3 hatchets and 2 axes in the end.
[Brackets are me, (any parenthesis are original) ]
Here is from my Drafts section of my Mail program where I put my hatchet info for a quick search:
Mullaly
Trial
Q. Could you tell those hatchets if you should see them again?
A. I think I could.
Q. (Presenting the claw hatchet and another.) What do you say as to those?
A. That (not the claw hatchet) looks very much like one of them which she took out. There was a spot on this large hatchet (i.e., claw hatchet), a little round spot, a rust spot.
Q. What did you do with the hatchets?
A. I took them out into what I call the wash room and laid them on the floor, and I
stayed there with them until Mr. Fleet came, and when Mr. Fleet came---
Q. Excuse me a moment. Before Mr. Fleet came had you found any other?
A. Those axes I carried from the south wall. I
Page 615
wouldn't say whether it was in that cellar or the cellar adjoining, but I took them down from the south wall of the house and put them on the floor with it, that is, four in all.
Q. And these appear to be the axes, do they?
A. Them axe handles was covered with ashes at the time.
Q. Now then, Mr. Fleet came, you say. After he came was anything done?
A. I gave him---called his attention to them hatchets and axes.
Q. Do you know whether he did anything with either one of the four hatchets?
A. I didn't take notice what he did do with them. He looked at them. I know that.
..........................
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Q. Did anyone else come in while you and officer Hyde were there or after you came there on this second visit?
A. Officer Fleet came down there again.
Q. Yes. Now what did he do? What did you see him do?
A. He said to me---
Q. No, not what he said to you. But he said something to you, did he?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. Then after that, what did you do? What did you do after Mr. Fleet had said something to you?
A. I showed him where them hatchets were taken from.
Q. What did you show?
A. I showed him a box where Bridget had taken them from.
Q. What did you do after you showed him the box?
A. He took a hatchet out of there.
Q. Can you tell what sort of hatchet he took out?
A. It looked to me as if smaller than one of them. The handle was broken and he put it back, and it was covered with dust or ashes, or something like that. It looked to
me---
Q. In the first place, I will ask you if that, with the wood put in, appears to be the hatchet that Mr. Fleet found in the box?
A. It looks very much like it, only a cleaner break.
~ ~ ~ ~
There were 3 hatchets and 2 axes in the end.
[Brackets are me, (any parenthesis are original) ]
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Kat
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Here they are all accounted for:
Trial
Mullaly
626+
Q. Did you see anybody look in the box while you were there at that time?
A. Not at that time.
Q. So you don't know what was in there?
A. No, I do not.
Q. How many things did she [Bridget] take out?
A. She took out two hatchets then.
Q. And did she hand them into your hands?
A. She did.
Q. And one of them was a little larger than the other?
A. One of them was larger than the other.
Q. And these two that are here you think are the ones?
A. They look very much like the ones.
. . . . . .
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Q. You saw that the handle of this hatchet was all covered with ashes?
A. Not the handle of that.
Q. Were there any ashes or dust on this?
A. No, sir.
Q. Perfectly clean?
A. There was no dust on that, that was clean.
Q. That whole hatchet was perfectly clean?
A. But that rust spot.
Q. All except that rust spot?
A. As far as I know.
Q. Was there any dust or ashes on the other?
A. I think this hatchet had about the same, pretty nigh the same appearance as it has now, as far as I know.
Q. There is no dust or ashes on it now?
A. No dust or ashes on it that I noticed.
Q. Then anything that you found at that time was not covered with dust or ashes?
A. No, sir; not at that time, not of them two. The two axes was, the handles.
Q. I call your attention to these, these are the two you refer to? (Producing axes.)
A. As far as I know they are.
Q. Well similar to these?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And those were very dusty?
A. Those were very dusty.
Q. Where were those found?
A. They were on the south side of the cellar.
Q. Did you find them?
A. I wouldn't say whether I found them or whether Miss Sullivan pointed them out to me, but I took then down.
Q. (By Mr. Moody.) Took the hatchets down?
A. Took down the axes.
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Q. (By Mr. Robinson.) You discovered nothing else on either one of those hatchets or handles except this spot of rust?
A. That is all.
Q. And they looked then about as they look now?
A. I believe the handle of the big axe was much cleaner---the wide one.
Q. You mean the hatchet?
A. The big hatchet; cleaner than the other one, than the smaller one.
. . . . . .
Q. Now when did you see the other one that has no handle?
A. I saw the other one later, when Mr. Fleet came in the cellar and asked me---
Trial
Mullaly
626+
Q. Did you see anybody look in the box while you were there at that time?
A. Not at that time.
Q. So you don't know what was in there?
A. No, I do not.
Q. How many things did she [Bridget] take out?
A. She took out two hatchets then.
Q. And did she hand them into your hands?
A. She did.
Q. And one of them was a little larger than the other?
A. One of them was larger than the other.
Q. And these two that are here you think are the ones?
A. They look very much like the ones.
. . . . . .
Page 628
Q. You saw that the handle of this hatchet was all covered with ashes?
A. Not the handle of that.
Q. Were there any ashes or dust on this?
A. No, sir.
Q. Perfectly clean?
A. There was no dust on that, that was clean.
Q. That whole hatchet was perfectly clean?
A. But that rust spot.
Q. All except that rust spot?
A. As far as I know.
Q. Was there any dust or ashes on the other?
A. I think this hatchet had about the same, pretty nigh the same appearance as it has now, as far as I know.
Q. There is no dust or ashes on it now?
A. No dust or ashes on it that I noticed.
Q. Then anything that you found at that time was not covered with dust or ashes?
A. No, sir; not at that time, not of them two. The two axes was, the handles.
Q. I call your attention to these, these are the two you refer to? (Producing axes.)
A. As far as I know they are.
Q. Well similar to these?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And those were very dusty?
A. Those were very dusty.
Q. Where were those found?
A. They were on the south side of the cellar.
Q. Did you find them?
A. I wouldn't say whether I found them or whether Miss Sullivan pointed them out to me, but I took then down.
Q. (By Mr. Moody.) Took the hatchets down?
A. Took down the axes.
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Q. (By Mr. Robinson.) You discovered nothing else on either one of those hatchets or handles except this spot of rust?
A. That is all.
Q. And they looked then about as they look now?
A. I believe the handle of the big axe was much cleaner---the wide one.
Q. You mean the hatchet?
A. The big hatchet; cleaner than the other one, than the smaller one.
. . . . . .
Q. Now when did you see the other one that has no handle?
A. I saw the other one later, when Mr. Fleet came in the cellar and asked me---