My theory ... Lizzie was not alone

[Yooper]

I agree with DJ where the hatchet is concerned, "leave the gun, take the cannoli" makes the most sense. It could be that since the police did not find the murder weapon dropped in plain sight, it spoke to an inside job. That being true, the weapon must have been hidden somewhere inside the house or at least nearby.

It makes the least sense of all for an intruder to run off carrying the hatchet.

[NancyDrew]

Hello everyone; I'm new here, but not new to the case. I've been fascinated by all things Lizzie since my teens (I'm now 51) and have visited the Borden B&B, where the tour guide assumes that Lizzie did the crime.

I have a couple of comments about what has been discussed here:

1. Prussic acid: I used to teach high school chemistry and so I find this part of the case particularly interesting (forgive me if I'm treading over old ground here.) Hydrogen cyanide comes in a pale blue liquid form and is highly toxic. If one were handling it in a chemistry lab today, specific precautions would have to be followed to avoid accidental exposure. That LIzzie attempted to purchase it from Eli Bence was corroborated by 2 other individuals. Why? Did she successfully purchase it before, as she claimed? (there would have been dispensing records that could have backed up her allegation.) Was it common practice for Victorian women to handle extremely toxic poisons to clean their fur capes? I can picture a rugged farm woman possibly coming into contact with such a substance if, for example, a herd of cows were to become infested...but even that scenario is hard to swallow (no pun intended.) Upper class women of the Victorian era were scene as "delicate" and given to sickness easily...does anyone envision the daughter of a millionaire handling caustic chemicals? Wouldn't that be something relegated to the hired help?

I did a bit of digging regarding just what form of sickness one might experience if he/she HAD ingested HCN; dizziness, weakness, fainting, nausea and vomiting, seizures, loss of consciousness. It would not be difficult to put a bit in someone's food; a small amount will make the victim very ill and they might not notice the taste. However, the amount that would cause sickness and the fatal dose is a thin line. It has been postulated that Lizzie WAS poisoning her parents already, but to do so would have entailed quite a bit of risk. How would she have known how much to use? What if she accidentally exposed herself ? Then there is the fact that post-mortem blood tests would show the metabolites of the poison, and possibly reveal murderous intent.

In my opinion, there is doubt she DID attempt to purchase the substance.. But here is where I get confused. Mr. Bence told her that in order to purchase prussic acid, she would need a doctor's prescription. She argued that she had bought it before without one. He stood his ground and refused to give her the acid. Why then, didn't she simply ask Dr. Bowen for a prescription? They were obviously close friends..if this were an innocent request, what would be the harm in her asking him?

Back then, all prescriptions came in glass bottles, and the shape was often used to distinguish the type of chemical contained within. Poisons were often dispensed in an angular bottle...did a search of the Borden house turn up any such containers?

I've often wondered if Lizzie intended to use the poison on herself. She was isolated, had no boyfriends, a strained relationship with her step-mother, and she felt betrayed by her father...it isn't hard for me to imagine that she might have been depressed. But I digress...

2. Dr. Bowen: The article about which most of this thread is related to left me astonished. I've read the court transcripts and testimony countless times; how did I miss this? If I have it right, Dr. Bowen appeared at the house almost immediately after the murders, and no one can say for sure how he got there. I was intrigued by the disjointed time table...but towards the end of the article, the author lost me. I simply don't believe that there was a huge conspiracy to kill Andrew Borden that involved several doctors, both sisters, workmen, etc. The motive seems mushy as well. The relationship between Dr. Bowen and Lizzie, however, is interesting, and towards that end I have a question: Did she remain in contact with him after her acquittal? If they were so close (enough to be seen going to church together and sitting besides each other) then one would think the friendship endured after the trial...does anyone know?

I'm sure I will have more questions, as this case seems to provide me with an endless supply of things to think about, but I'll leave off for now. I look forward to getting to know those of you on here who, like me, never get bored talking about the possibilities.

[snokkums]

I have always suspected that Dr. Bowen may have performed an abortion on Lizzie after an incestuous relationship with the father. Look, that kind of built up violent lashing out towards one's parents had to have come from somewhere. I don't believe it was just because of money. It may have been the last straw, but the rage that caused the murders had to have occurred from something really ugly in her past.

Haven't quite figure out how to quote two post at the same time, but I think yu are right on both. I think that the violence of the crimes suggest incest. Dadday did the deed and stepmom knew about it. And you are right she never had any realations with the opposite sex. And, for someone who was suposedly close to her father, she showed no emothion at him having been killed, and violently at that.

[NancyDrew]

Hi All: I'm new to the forum, and thought I made a post, but it didn't show up yet. Is that normal?

I wanted to talk about the prussic acid purchase. (and if my original post shows up, forgive the double here...)

Prussic acid: Hydrogen cyanide (HCN)...nasty, awful stuff. Used by Nazi's to exterminate millions of Jews. I find it very improbable that a Victorian lady who fancied herself "uppercrust" would buy a toxic, highly lethal poison and use it as a pesticide on clothing of any kind. Bearing that in mind, the following questions always jump out at me when I re-read this part of the case:

1. She claims to have purchased it before. Was this checked out? Druggists keep records; did anyone ask Eli Bence if she had, indeed, been dispensed this substance previously?
2. If she was so close to Dr. Bowen (as evidenced by the fact that he chaperoned her to church, he was the first person she asked for, he spent time alone with her in her bedroom, with the door closed, etc.) and she needed a prescription for the acid, AND she really DID intend to use it for benign purposed, then why didn't she ask him for the prescription? (or perhaps she meant to, but the murders got in the way.)
3. I've done some digging, and can't find any references that would support the notion that Hydrogen Cyanide was normally used by a layperson to clean insects from clothing. Yes, its' a fumigant, but I've only seen articles about its use by farmers when livestock are infested.
4. In the 1890's, pharmacies dispensed liquids in glass bottles, (in fact most medicines were in glass bottles, except some ointments that might be placed in ceramic jars) and in the case of prussic acid, the bottle may very well have had the word "POISON" carved into the side. HCN's vapors are very dangerous, and so the bottle would have a very narrow neck and a corked top. When the police searched the house, did they find any glass bottles? Any prescriptions of any kind?

Thanks to anyone who might be reading this, and any thougths or comments are appreciated...
-Nancy Drew (the original girl-sleuth!)

[Nadzieja]

The violence of that crime really shows a very deep hatred of these two people. Everything was kept so secret back then, even normal relations were kept secret never mind incest. The guilt the victim would carry would be horrible. To strike someone that many times takes more than a few seconds so the person that did it was very focused on the victim.
If incest was indeed the case does anyone think that Uncle John knew anything about it? Being his sister's child I'm sure if he did that he might do something or at least say something to Andrew.

[Yooper]

Nothing in the primary source material suggests to me that John Morse and Andrew Borden were at odds about anything. In fact, Morse asked the court to return the note he had received from Andrew shortly before the murders, he thought of it as a keepsake.

[NancyDrew]

Sorry for the apparent double post...still getting my feet wet around here!

[DJ]

Welcome, NancyDrew!
BTW: How are Bess and George, Ned, and your Dad, Carson?
OK, OK, OK-- McSnarkey.

Good point about asking Dr. Bowen for an RX-- if it were an innocent request for a cleaning agent. Yes, and why not have Maggie tend to it? After all, the poor bee-ach was washing out Lizzie's monthly pads.

One thinks it wasn't so innocent. Also, Dr. B might have had serious doubts about her true intent, and the RX would have been traceable to him, of course.

Now, this leads us back to the article re Dr. B. Surely a physician could have concocted a lethal potion that Lizzie could have administered, had he wished to do in Mr. and Mrs. B. Why go to the trouble to hide in the house and administer a hatchet? Another salvo against that theory.

Anyway, an RX would have been traceable to Lizzie, too, of course. The evidence of such might well have called for a post-mortem test on the substance.

Lizzie's desperate attempt to obtain a lethal agent at a neighborhood druggist's underscores my theory that she was on a timeline to eliminate Abby before some financial favor toward Abby was going to go into effect, possibly the transferral of stocks.

I think Mr. B was fed up with his daughters, that the "quid pro quo" days were over, that he was going to secure Abby's future in spite of their protests for "equality."

Emma packs up, and Lizzie can't even make it to join friends for a beach party, she is so upset. So, she returns to TCB, as Elvis would have put it.

I think the Daylight Robbery blew it for Lizzie.

VERY IMP: I think she was never the same, in Andrew's eyes, afterward, and that she knew it.
I don't think she could stand to live under his gaze, and that she might as well "go for broke."

[NancyDrew]

Hello! I didn't see your reply to me. I'm different than the other "Nancy Drew" as my username does not have a space between first and last.(Just thought I'd point that out.)

I LOVED Nancy Drew as a child, and still have all the books. On a side note: I can't believe how often Nancy was hit over the head (to the point of unconsciousness), knocked out with ether, chloroform, etc. and never had any follow up medical treatment. I can imagine her having early onset dementia from all the concussions!)

I read somewhere that Lizzie had attempted to buy poison at other drugstores out of town; is this true?

[Nadzieja]

I personally have not come across where Lizzie tried to buy poison out of town. If somone else has let us know. The only incident that I know of is with Eli Bence who wouldn't sell it to her because she didn't have a prescription. He was also willing to testify to this fact but was never called.