Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Good point, Curryong. I wonder, though, if Harrington's retelling of Lizzie's "three or four days" comment could be interpreted as Victorian shorthand for "these are menstrual rags," especially with reference to a doctor. (Three or four days being often the standard used for duration of a woman's period.) Maybe she didn't literally mean they had been there three or four days, which would make Bridget's statement seem less contradictory.

Heaven knows, Mara! I don't think they wanted to discuss it at all! It's just rather strange that if the pail was down in the cellar on washday (Monday?) that Bridget wouldn't have noticed it there. She would have had to have spent some time in the cellar heating up the water, sorting the dirty clothes and linen out etc.

It's not clear whether the actual washing took place down there. I don't know about the U.S., but on fine days in Britain and Australia, women would often go outside with the 'dolly tub' and wash larger items in bulk there. Smaller, more delicate items would be washed in the sink, of course. The mangle may have been kept in the cellar.

Ha ha! I just have to share this photo of my very Irish Great Aunt Mame (right) and a friend (left), doing the washing on a fine day in Rosendale, New York, early 1900s. They actually look like they're having a good time, don't they? Many hands make light the work, or so the saying goes.

A lovely photo, Mara, and some white clothing behind them! Of course, it would be pretty grim doing all that scrubbing inside on a cold and rainy day, possibly with young children running around.

POSSIBLY with young children running around?!? We're talking Irish, my dear. LOL

Considering how dear photography was in those days -- there's my old-timer use of "dear" meaning "expensive" -- it's interesting that somebody decided to shoot such a common domestic scene as this. All my other family photos are relatively formal, or group shots of a picnic at some pretty spot, and so on. I treasure this for its rare glimpse of daily life. I love the basket on the ground. Such nice work for such a homely item.

What a great picture, Mara! Thanks for sharing it with us.

Mara wrote:POSSIBLY with young children running around?!? We're talking Irish, my dear. LOL

Considering how dear photography was in those days -- there's my old-timer use of "dear" meaning "expensive" -- it's interesting that somebody decided to shoot such a common domestic scene as this. All my other family photos are relatively formal, or group shots of a picnic at some pretty spot, and so on. I treasure this for its rare glimpse of daily life. I love the basket on the ground. Such nice work for such a homely item.

Wow!! I totally love the smiles! So many older photographs have grim looking subjects, and these two lovely ladies look happy! Monday was always wash day when I was a child...women took pride in how early in the morning their wash was on the line to dry. I'm also old enough to remember bathing as a young child in a similar wash tub except square rather than round. We lived in a rural area so indoor plumbing came when I was about six and a telephone several years later. This was the norm; my parents were not poor. This was 65 +/- years after Lizzie bemoaned the Borden lack of indoor plumbing and electricity. I can't remember no electricity but do remember my mother cooking on a wood stove. Thank you for the wonderful picture. The charm of their smiles spans the decades.

I wonder whether Bridget used Gold Dust Washing Powder, the first ever commercially produced, on the Bordens' washday?. Its mascot is very politically incorrect today, but apparently it was extremely popular for generations after it was introduced in 1889 and Andrew would have liked the fact that it was cheap!

It bothers me that in sworn testimony, Bridget said that she didn't see the pail of rags that Lizzie swore was there for 3 or 4 days. Bridget said if they had been there she'd have washed them out. and the house wasn't that big that she would have missed them. As fastidious as Mrs. Borden was for cleanliness, she would have never allowed them to just sit around for even a day. While not coming out and saying what they were, to say they were there 4 days is just a lie. She could have left it at "the doctor was made aware and knows what it is from"

There's always been a questionmark over whether Lizzie really did have her period when she said she did.
If Lizzie hadn't been menstruating and the cloths in the pail were,in fact, her 'cleaning cloths' after the murder, are we talking about Abby's murder, Andrew's or both?

If Lizzie wore, as I think she did, Andrew's coat for his murder, and attacked him from the dining room door, she would, I think we agreed in other threads, hardly be covered in blood splatter and could have just used the hankies to wipe herself quickly.

We don't know what Lizzie used to clean herself with following Abby's murder. During that murder some posters have put forward she was covered by something like a raincoat. She may have had a jug of water in her room to help the cleaning up. My point is that, IF she covered herself up for both murders there would hardly be any need for the amount of bloodied cloths that the police officer observed in that pail.

The police didn't even ask her for her shoes and stockings on the day. She provided those days later, and admitted that she had washed the stockings!

Curryong wrote:There's always been a questionmark over whether Lizzie really did have her period when she said she did.
If Lizzie hadn't been menstruating and the cloths in the pail were,in fact, her 'cleaning cloths' after the murder, are we talking about Abby's murder, Andrew's or both?

If Lizzie wore, as I think she did, Andrew's coat for his murder, and attacked him from the dining room door, she would, I think we agreed in other threads, hardly be covered in blood splatter and could have just used the hankies to wipe herself quickly.

We don't know what Lizzie used to clean herself with following Abby's murder. During that murder some posters have put forward she was covered by something like a raincoat. She may have had a jug of water in her room to help the cleaning up. My point is that, IF she covered herself up for both murders there would hardly be any need for the amount of bloodied cloths that the police officer observed in that pail.

The police didn't even ask her for her shoes and stockings on the day. She provided those days later, and admitted that she had washed the stockings!

Over the past year, I have posted several times a picture of a Crime Scene Technician, who beat a forensic head full of blood with a hammer. She wore an all white jumpsuit, so you could see the blood spatter pattern. Remembering that it was a BLUNT hammer (that would cause MUCH more splatter than a sharp hatchet) There is still surprisingly LITTLE blood splatter on her. Almost all was on her shins and the hand she used to hold the hammer.

In modern times with the use of luminol and an ultraviolet light, more would be seen, but in the days of poor lighting and no luminol, very fine spray would have been missed on a dark dress. I don't think Lizzie needed to dispose of a dress, just perhaps a black stocking, and some rags used to clean up.

Agreed!
I think we, in our light-filled modern homes, forget too, how dim Victorian rooms could be. The windows were often covered with thick drapes and net curtailing and people were, especially in summer, afraid to let light in as it equated to heat. The heat of the day was there to be escaped.

The women fussing around Lizzie, fanning her etc weren't there to do an inspection of her clothing. In a dimly lighted room a few small blood spots around the hem wouldn't be noted at all.

Nevertheless, it's odd how Lizzie wanted to change her dress quite quickly, saying later that 'they' had urged her to do so. The trouble with that was nobody else could remember saying so!

I think Lizzie took the opportunity to also hide some increasingly uncomfortable sticky black stockings when she changed into her pink wrapper, and the said bloodstained hose were tucked away in that blanket at the bottom of the dress closet. Alice Russell noticed Lizzie going several times to that closet!