Lizzie Borden Society Forum

BOBO wrote:PLEASE STOP!!!!.... What is going on??? I posted this letter after YEARS of BEGGING for permission!

I stated that THERE IS A STORY that goes with the letter. I ask for PMs, from ANYONE that would like to hear what goes with the letter. I HAVE RECEIVED ONE PM!!! Yet everyone seems to have an opinion!! How can you folks offer an opinion ON NOTHING BUT A LETTER?? THERE IS A STORY BEHIND THE LETTER!!!
I realize that folks don't want to get caught up into "he said, she said", but until you have heard THE STORY BEHIND THE LETTER...... EAZE UP!!!.

BOBO, why did you change your original post of Oct 31, 2014 8:47 pm, that is shown above?

BOBO wrote:I will post this letter from the Mary Grein family descendants... The photo copy of this letter has been in my possession since 2006. The copy I have is very faint, I can not get it to print to where it's readable.
It was written from Sarah Welch to Mary Grein in August of 1881. The letter was written on note book paper of 5 1/2 x 7. There are 3 pages of this letter written, with page 2 missing.
Page 1 reads... "Regards, there is work in the Hunt's family. they are good family. The borden family is good folk but be carefull they are not well. things go on there that you should not see. maybe there is work that you can find.
PAGE 2 IS MISSING.. Page 3 reads... that house is full of woes... leave now.
That letter ends on that note... WHAT SAY YOU??

/

Folks I am not reading the forum at this time. I am answering PMs. ONE ANSWER DOESN'T FIT ALL. THX for your patience. Tim

I urge you all to send Bobo a PM and wait for his reply. He may be inundated-- but it IS worth the wait

twinsrwe wrote:

BOBO wrote:PLEASE STOP!!!!.... What is going on??? I posted this letter after YEARS of BEGGING for permission!

I stated that THERE IS A STORY that goes with the letter. I ask for PMs, from ANYONE that would like to hear what goes with the letter. I HAVE RECEIVED ONE PM!!! Yet everyone seems to have an opinion!! How can you folks offer an opinion ON NOTHING BUT A LETTER?? THERE IS A STORY BEHIND THE LETTER!!!
I realize that folks don't want to get caught up into "he said, she said", but until you have heard THE STORY BEHIND THE LETTER...... EAZE UP!!!.

BOBO, why did you change your original post of Oct 31, 2014 8:47 pm, that is shown above?

Judy, after rereading my post it was very apparent that it was "rude" at it's worst. My apologies to all forum members. Tim

BOBO wrote:

twinsrwe wrote:

BOBO wrote:PLEASE STOP!!!!.... What is going on??? I posted this letter after YEARS of BEGGING for permission!

I stated that THERE IS A STORY that goes with the letter. I ask for PMs, from ANYONE that would like to hear what goes with the letter. I HAVE RECEIVED ONE PM!!! Yet everyone seems to have an opinion!! How can you folks offer an opinion ON NOTHING BUT A LETTER?? THERE IS A STORY BEHIND THE LETTER!!!
I realize that folks don't want to get caught up into "he said, she said", but until you have heard THE STORY BEHIND THE LETTER...... EAZE UP!!!.

BOBO, why did you change your original post of Oct 31, 2014 8:47 pm, that is shown above?

Judy, after rereading my post it was very apparent that it was "rude" at it's worst. My apologies to all forum members. Tim

Thank you for the explanation, Tim. It is appreciated. Your apology is accepted.

Well, I have to talk about what Bobo said in PM to me. Who will PM me?? He asks that we not post in the forum but he says he's fine with sharing via PM as long as we directly quote.

phineas wrote:Well, I have to talk about what Bobo said in PM to me. Who will PM me?? He asks that we not post in the forum but he says he's fine with sharing via PM as long as we directly quote.

THX for the help. I do not know how to forward a PM. (Judy, stop rolling your eyes...LOL).

No, rolling of my eyes on this one, Tim. I far as I know, a PM cannot be forwarded, because they are meant to be viewed by only one recipient; that's why they are called a private message. Now if you want to send a PM that you have composed to several people, then once you have composed your message, just highlight it, and then copy it, before you send it on to the first recipient. You can then start a new message, paste your composed message, and send it on to the next recipient, etc.

Ok. Let's keep our mind open, wild open.

I have never considered seriously the incest theory. But who knows? Someone says that Andrew doesn't look like as such a type. But which incestuous father looks like so? Such an individual would certainly do his best to appear as a father model.

We all know that Bridget wanted to leave the house, despite the apparently good conditions for an Irish servant at that time as her, why? we all know that Emma and Lizzie were not married, and even Andrew and Abby were not killed, they would most probably remain unmarried as well. Are the reasons all innocent? I think it would be legitimate to ask such a question. And many people question Lizzie's reactions after the discovery of her father's body, too calm, etc. (even though I don't completely agree on this point), why?

Ok, keep our mind open, and assuming for a moment that the incest did exist. Does this prove that Lizzie did it? I don't think so. If Emma (or probably Lizzie as well) bore the contemptible deed of their father after so many years, why not to continue to bear it until his natural death? In my opinion the incest theory is more in favor of the intruder. Someone else knew that truth and decided to stop the ugly deed of Andrew, and Abby became a second victim probably because she didn't do anything to protect the girls.

I beg your pardon, my forum mates. In this case I still consider John Morse as the candidate number one. Yes, he was always in good relation with Andrew, at least apparently, but what if he knew the incest fact only a couple of months before the murder took place? He would certainly continue to be in good relation with Andrew in order not to cause his doubt. We all know that Morse was an eccentric man, but I would say that sometimes, or even often, an eccentric man could have a stronger moral sens than a "normal" people. How could John, if he was such a man, tolerate his brother-in-law Andrew to molest the daughters of his dead sister?

And in this case, I don't believe that Lizzie and Emma knew the murder plan of uncle John, because the presence of Lizzie in the house while the murder was planned to take place makes such a conjecture improbable. Uncle John, from his part, had tried his best to protect the women (for example, the overkilling). And he must kill Abby as well, for 1) her inactivity before Andrew's deed; 2) that Lizzie and Emma could have all the fortune of the family.

Franz wrote:Ok. Let's keep our mind open, wild open.

I have never considered seriously the incest theory. But who knows? Someone says that Andrew doesn't look like as such a type. But which incestuous father looks like so? Such an individual would certainly do his best to appear as a father model.

We all know that Bridget wanted to leave the house, despite the apparently good conditions for an Irish servant at that time as her, why? we all know that Emma and Lizzie were not married, and even Andrew and Abby were not killed, they would most probably remain unmarried as well. Are the reasons all innocent? I think it would be legitimate to ask such a question. And many people question Lizzie's reactions after the discovery of her father's body, too calm, etc. (even though I don't completely agree on this point), why?

Ok, keep our mind open, and assuming for a moment that the incest did exist. Does this prove that Lizzie did it? I don't think so. If Emma (or probably Lizzie as well) bore the contemptible deed of their father after so many years, why not to continue to bear it until his natural death? In my opinion the incest theory is more in favor of the intruder. Someone else knew that truth and decided to stop the ugly deed of Andrew, and Abby became a second victim probably because she didn't do anything to protect the girls.

I beg your pardon, my forum mates. In this case I still consider John Morse as the candidate number one. Yes, he was always in good relation with Andrew, at least apparently, but what if he knew the incest fact only a couple of months before the murder took place? He would certainly continue to be in good relation with Andrew in order not to cause his doubt. We all know that Morse was an eccentric man, but I would say that sometimes, or even often, an eccentric man could have a stronger moral sens than a "normal" people. How could John, if he was such a man, tolerate his brother-in-law Andrew to molest the daughters of his dead sister?

And in this case, I don't believe that Lizzie and Emma knew the murder plan of uncle John, because the presence of Lizzie in the house while the murder was planned to take place makes such a conjecture improbable. Uncle John, from his part, had tried his best to protect the women (for example, the overkilling). And he must kill Abby as well, for 1) her inactivity before Andrew's deed; 2) that Lizzie and Emma could have all the fortune of the family.

I agree regarding most of this. I can see Morse as the perpetrator or hiring the deed done if his sense or moral righteousness was finally overwhelmed...and guys like Morse with what appears to be limited social skills can be very rigid in their interpretation of right and wrong. But also Dr. Bowen as his behavior was extremely odd, and he alone (other than the murderer) had opportunity to leave with the hatchet. Prussic acid was used as an abortifacient in the 1890s and Bridget vomited the morning of the murders. Maybe the slop bucket was hers, not Lizzie's, and Lizzie covered for her and for whoever came in and did the deed. Maybe we've given Bridget a bye for much too long. Did she have a brother in the area? I've long entertained the idea that Bowen could've been the family abortionist, but maybe the servants were more victimized than the daughters. The hospital recently encountered a family where one of the girls has accused her father of incest...and I don't believe even though the other sister confirms it. I don't believe because this guy is such a great father to all his kids. (Also because both of the girls have serious attachment disorders due to being abused before being adopted.) Franz is right, though, pedophiles often do not look at like pedophiles; they look like ideal parents. Just take a peek at news about Molly Shattuck. Whoever did the killing was enraged, more so at Abby or maybe not....maybe Irina is right. The killer wasn't sure looking at the back of Abby's head that she was dead...looking at Andrew's face made such determination much easier. Hacking someone in the face is a very personal statement and that kind of destruction meets the very definition depersonalization. For along time the agreement here has been that there's no evidence of incest...but the very secretiveness of incest means there is rarely evidence unless the victim reports it or there's a witness. For either Emma or Lizzie to charge Andrew with incest would damn near guarantee a murder conviction, IMO. Many people would refuse to believe it and see it as a groping for an excuse, and those who did believe would see it as motive.

Morse hates Andrew enough to hire his killer- but sits and makes polite conversation with him the night before the deed is done? Lord knows what violence I could be capable of if I were to discover someone was sexually abusing my child, or if I happened to stumble on an abuser of a complete stranger! If you believe it, you do everything to stop it at once-- even if you can't extract revenge. In those days law was taken into people's own hands a lot more than they are today. JVM would have had to be a mighty controlled and VERY peculiar person to patiently plan such a deed-- not knowing if the abuse was continuing during the planning phase. I won't discount the incest theory all together, and they were a weird family, but this is unimaginable to me.

Never, ever dismiss the possibility of a person to tell an absolute lie or even make up a convoluted story and then tell it, sometimes repeatedly, with a bold face, minimal to no conscience and utter conviction. I don't know enough about Morse or the conversation of the night before to know whether he had this ability or not. Some people do.

I suddenly recall that after Lizzie's being acquitted, Morse had almost no contact at all with the Borden sisters.

Within the incest theory, could this be well explained? Could Morse's psychology be this one? "Emma, Lizzie, in the name of my dead and beloved sister Sarah, your mother, I revenged you by killing Andrew and Abby. But you, you didn't tell me the truth earlier, you didn't react as you should. You are really dirty creatures, and you don't deserve my affection or attention any more!"

Well, it's become a truism of the case that the sisters and Uncle John never or hardly ever met again. We've no knowledge as to whether that's true. He and Emma might have kept sporadic contact up for a number of years. We just don't know. I believe he was at Lizzie's coming-home party in 1893.

debbiediablo wrote:Never, ever dismiss the possibility of a person to tell an absolute lie or even make up a convoluted story and then tell it, sometimes repeatedly, with a bold face, minimal to no conscience and utter conviction. I don't know enough about Morse or the conversation of the night before to know whether he had this ability or not. Some people do.

Oh I know-- but my spidey sense tells me that this isn't the case here. I just can't think that John knew and planned a cold blooded murder yet remained so mild mannered about it. And I know people can be emotionless and plan such murders-- but I just don't think that is the case here.

According to the Grein family, John Morse, had nothing to do with the Borden murders.

When you say that, BOBO Tim, do you mean nothing physically to do with the murders, ie supplying a hired killer or two, or he had nothing to do with it in the sense that Uncle John never let the cat out of the bag to the 'girls' with regard to a planned will of Andrew's?

Aamartin wrote:

debbiediablo wrote:Never, ever dismiss the possibility of a person to tell an absolute lie or even make up a convoluted story and then tell it, sometimes repeatedly, with a bold face, minimal to no conscience and utter conviction. I don't know enough about Morse or the conversation of the night before to know whether he had this ability or not. Some people do.

Oh I know-- but my spidey sense tells me that this isn't the case here. I just can't think that John knew and planned a cold blooded murder yet remained so mild mannered about it. And I know people can be emotionless and plan such murders-- but I just don't think that is the case here.

Because you believe Lizzie did it.

BOBO wrote:According to the Grein family, John Morse, had nothing to do with the Borden murders.

Why did they think so, please?

BOBO (Tim) will only respond to PMs. If you want to know more, send him one, please. Thanks!

Fiddle-dee-dee. I've time traveled right into Gone With the Wind.

debbiediablo wrote:Fiddle-dee-dee. I've time traveled right into Gone With the Wind.

I so need to read that book!

BOBO wrote:I will post this letter from the Mary Grein family descendants... The photo copy of this letter has been in my possession since 2006. The copy I have is very faint, I can not get it to print to where it's readable.
It was written from Sarah Welch to Mary Grein in August of 1881. The letter was written on note book paper of 5 1/2 x 7. There are 3 pages of this letter written, with page 2 missing.
Page 1 reads... "Regards, there is work in the Hunt's family. they are good family. The borden family is good folk but be carefull they are not well. things go on there that you should not see. maybe there is work that you can find.
PAGE 2 IS MISSING.. Page 3 reads... that house is full of woes... leave now.
That letter ends on that note... WHAT SAY YOU??

As to the follow ups to this letter, I would ask any writer, researcher etc., past or present, to offer any better proof as to the "WHY" for the murders. I will let my research on this matter speak for itself. NO this is NOT PROOF.... just show me some documentations that point's to something else.

If there was serious sexual depravity going on I have a problem with the mere description of being "unwell". With page 2 missing I am not convinced that Andrew J. Borden's house at 92 Second St. was "full of woes", or that that was the place that should be left. Even though census can put Sarah Welch and Mary Grein in that particular house, there is nothing that tells us the "unwell" Bordens are THE Bordens that would eventually be murdered. There were a lot of Bordens in the vicinity. The letter adds another dimension but for me is inconclusive, especially due to page 2 having gone missing. A lot could be on that page which could nullify what is on page 1, and which could redefine page 3.

There are a number of historic mysteries which have partial solutions due to missing pages, torn maps, books with pages missing, etc. Out west here we have a number of "lost gold mines" with incomplete written records that give us ideas where to look but not enough detail. Indeed location of the "Blue Bucket Mine" also depends on a bit of local knowledge in addition to pioneer diaries in order to reach a solution.

How thrilling, irina, that you know of partial maps to lost gold mines in your area. I suppose they are in desert or mountainous spots. Just think, one day you could buy a second-hand book and there, tucked away, could be a complete map and your fortune will be made! In Australia we had the Gold Rush days of course and we still have gold mines operating, though I've never heard of lost maps. An adventurer called Lassiter is connected to a legend about a lost gold reef, however. There is also a town called Coober Pedy where opals are mined and half the town is built underground because of the terrible summer heat.

I think you did SO well Tim, to keep working tenaciously to bring these letters to us. However, I also have trouble, for the same reasons as irina, with the letter as is. If only Page 2 had been kept! I do find it puzzling that the tone of the letter seems to be addressing the concerns of someone newly employed at the Bordens or, perhaps, contemplating working for them. However, in 1881 Mary would surely have known as much about the Bordens as Sarah, as she had been employed by them for at least two and a half years. So why would she not get out when given the warning by her friend, but instead stay on for another seven years? I just find it puzzling, BOBO.

Andrew wasn't some wicked Irish squire having his way with the servants on a remote estate in the 18th century. Sexual assault and incest were criminal offences in the 1890's just as they are now. Why did the two women, Sarah and Mary, continue to work for years for such an evil man? They had wages, some of which they saved, presumably. What was to prevent them from, even if they didn't want to contact the police, moving on to other employment? I don't know about Sarah, but Mary had friends, and family (in whom she confided about Andrew.) She wasn't alone in the world. Why did she remain, to be regularly interfered with presumably, again and again. She was Roman Catholic. The first time it happened would Mary not have confided in the local priest (not full details but just that Andrew was acting badly?) Would he not have advised her to go immediately? He would have failed in his pastoral duty if he hadn't.

Bridget apparently had no compulsion about leaving and only stayed because she felt sorry for Abby. There is nothing to show that Bridget was ever the object of Andrew's attentions.

You forget that this is similar to an abused woman. Why does she stay? These girls and Lizzie and Emma could have been in the same situation. Someone mentioned that they could have left if he was abusing them in any fashion but you forget- unless these women had a way to support themselves, they couldn't. If I remember correctly, neither daughter had outside jobs. It probably wasn't easy for the servants to get another job either. But I will rest my case now...

Fall River was a prosperous textile town, one of the largest in the world at that time. There were jobs going in the mills. Also, in the 1890's domestic servants were in short supply as there were alternative female jobs beginning to come into existence. Jobs were increasing all over the United States. Mary was apparently writing home about the abuse. Why didn't her relatives come to the house and insist she leave if she felt too helpless to do so?

Sorry, but we have no Page 2 of the letter BOBO quoted, and there is just not enough in the few lines remaining to conclude that there was incest and abuse of the servants going on in the Borden house.

Oops. What I posted here should have been in the Incest or Rape thread and has been deleted here and reposted there.