Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:24 am**

Jess, I posted before I saw your last post. I do still agree it’s a good possibility Lizzie stole the hatchet, and possibly some arsenic. Also agree Emma was quite likely to have been covering for Lizzie (Lizzie probably convinced Emma the chloroform was for an innocent purpose).

But what do you think? Do you believe Emma thought Lizzie acquired the chloroform for nefarious purposes? Do you think they were in cahoots in planning the murders?

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:24 am**

Here is the Fall River City Directory 1892 for an apothecary named Riddell, and his home address, but no Benjamin:

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:27 am**

Well, middle initial “B.”—do you suppose that could stand for Benjamin?

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:33 am**

JJ, Glossary B
RIDDELL, BENJAMIN FRANKLIN JR.: 1846-1927: born in Nantucket, Massachusetts, son of Benjamin Franklin (1804-1862) and Lydia (nee Coffin) Riddell. In 1884, he married Miss Elizabeth E. Mills (b.1850). Riddell owned a pharmacy at 8 Granite Block in Fall River. He died at the age of eighty and is buried at Oak Grove Cemetery in Fall River.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:35 am**

Reasonwhy wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:27 am Well, middle initial “B.”—do you suppose that could stand for Benjamin?

Saw your post after I was done typing the Glossary item
Yes, I think you are correct, in that the listing is for Benjamin Franklin Riddell! Good catch, thanks!
=B. Frank Riddell

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:39 am**

When we’re hot, we’re hot!

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:51 am**

YES!
Might as well include a couple of views of the Granite Block, c. 1892, probably by Harry, and saved in my computer:
(There are such interesting things in my computer...)
These are for camgarsky...I know he likes to imagine the scene, putting himself there, so to speak

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:16 am**

I can't help picturing the scene in the movie with Elizabeth Montgomery when she steals a hatchet. It does, at least, give a mind picture that it's not impossible it was done. But I do have my pet topic Was Lizzie a Thief? where I was hoping to gather "evidence" against that notion...

Anyway, there are good surmises here,and I had asked for interpretations thanks!... but how does one shoplift chloroform-is it realistic?

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:24 am**

I'm starting to wonder if these Borden girls had a normal or abnormal interest in or knowledge of poisons and medicines!
That's quite a few apothecaries: Smiths...Brow....Riddell.
Hmmm....

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:54 am**

Another thought about the poison,,,
The newspaper account of Lizzie buying chloroform always bothered me. First, chloroform (contrary to crime fiction) is a horrible murder weapon. You would have to subdue the person and put a wet rag over their mouth and nose for up to 5 minutes before they became unconscious. They would be in a panic and thrashing the whole time. Second, the druggist admitted that the incident was 4 years old. Was he really remembering that it was Lizzie?
Lizzie was an animal lover, would she really kill a cat? It's possible, there are other anecdotal accounts of her being mean to an animal but seems contrary to her personality.
Yet, in the trial there is a very long discussion about different poisons including specifically chloroform:

TRIAL TRANSCRIPT
HATHAWAY (chemist)
Q. What do they kill cats with? If you want to kill a cat, and don't shoot her or knock her
on the head or tie a stone around her and leave her in a bag down by the river? What
would you kill cats with if you wanted to do it quietly?
A. I am unable to state, sir.
Q. You have no experience in that way?
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, suppose you put one in a box and put some strong chloroform in with her, what about it?
A. I think if the box was tight the cat would die, if you put in enough chloroform.

When we read the trial testimony about poisons, they actually went on for hours arguing about how different poisons had innocent uses, and how prussic acid could kill insects on sealskin capes. The defense, rather than simply stating that the druggists were misremembering that it had been Lizzie who attempted to buy poisons, actually passively admits that it could have been her but that it was for an innocent reason. As a defense attorney, I wouldn't want the jury hearing so much about poison. I'd dismiss the idea as false memory and move on. It seems they must have known that there was some truth in it.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:41 am**

Possum - Agree, the defense seemed to concede that Lizzie attempted to purchase prussic acid. Attorney Phillips in his pamphlet (copy on the Virtual Library site) states what you state above. Per Phillips...."She had sought to purchase it for an innocent purpose."

Tagging on to this theme, Phillips actually concurs with Bridget's memory that Lizzie was upstairs when AJB got home, but again it was innocently. Paraphrased..... "She laughed upon his arrival and greeted him pleasantly."

The evidence on the Smith pharmacy visit is so overwhelming (in my opinion), but 'we' have typed thousands of words on this forum debating it. The defense itself appears to have accepted her visit in their own writings.

Kat -- thanks for the Granite Block photos above!! Is the street in both photos S. Main Street? Guessing yes, but want to be sure.

Posted: **Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:15 am**

The Fall River City Directory, 1892, pg 39, says Granite Block :"Main between Pocasset and Central."
Odd that it doesn't say South Main or North Main. I think there was a small distance of that street that was 'just Main' - the segment that was in the middle between S. and N.

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:53 pm**

Was the letter that Lizzie sent to Emma on the morning of the murders ever recovered and examined for content?

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 2:01 pm**

Hi Investigator Gal!! Welcome to the forum.

Not to our knowledge. Below is the only reference I am aware of in the source documents concerning that letters destiny (or lack thereof).

Lizzie' inquest testimony:
Q. Did she get it in Fair Haven?
A. No sir, it was sent back. She did not get it at Fairhaven, for we telegraphed for her, and she got home here Thursday afternoon, and the letter was sent back to this post office.

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:45 pm**

Thank you Camgarsky4 for your reply and welcome.

It would have been great to see if the contents of the letter would have provided any insight into Lizzie’s frame of mind on that morning.

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:16 pm**

For sure. There are a few letters I would love to read! The letter from lizzie to Elizabeth Johnston mailed earlier that same week that supposedly contained something 'intriguing' would be great to read. Elizabeth refused to share the contents of letter with police at the counsel of Lizzie's attorney.

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:14 pm**

InvestigatorGal wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 12:53 pm Was the letter that Lizzie sent to Emma on the morning of the murders ever recovered and examined for content?

Hi and welcome, InvestigatorGal! Here is a snippet from Hiram Harrington’s newspaper interview with The Fall River Daily Herald, Aug. 6, 1892 (he is quoting Lizzie here; bolding is mine):

“‘Then I have seen strange men around the house. A few months ago I was coming through the back yard, and, as I approached the side door, I saw a man there examining the door and premises. I did not mention it to anyone. The other day I saw the same man hanging about the house, evidently watching us. I became frightened and told my parents about it. I also wrote to my sister at Fairhaven about it.’ Miss Borden then gave it as her opinion that the strange man had a direct connection with the murder, but she could not see why the house was not robbed, and did not know of anyone who would desire revenge upon her father.”

Of course, we do not know the date of the writing referenced, or, as always, if Lizzie was telling the truth. But she could have written such a letter on murder day to bolster, to Emma, her story of having seen men around the house.

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:24 pm**

Hi Reasonwhy, thank you for your response and welcome. Great point that the referenced letter could have contained those details. Wish the letter had been reviewed especially given the timeframe of its delivery.

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:14 pm**

Reasonwhy wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:00 am
Kat wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:06 pm
Kat wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:15 am Gee, I was still all dreamy over Buck and sunsets, and back to reality! You're fast!
Hiram was at least adventuresome - he went by ship to the Gold Rush out West, early in his life!
Here is the citation for this claim:
viewtopic.php?t=6379&p=101841

I really don't remember the Mason reference, sorry.
That's all I have toward verification of Hiram Harrington's credentials.
I do have a clip of the census where he is listed as "blacksmith" if anyone wants that?
Once again, The Jennings Journals save us with their newly printed information! Hiram is in Glossary A, p. 404:

"HARRINGTON, HIRAM C. 1829-1907: born in East Greenwich, Rhode Island, son of George C. (1798-1883) and Marcy A. (nee Green) Harrington (1802-1877). In 1849, at the age of twenty, he traveled to California to mine for gold. He settled in Fall River and, in 1854, married Miss Lurana Borden (1828-1898) of that city, the sister of Andrew J. Borden. Employed as a blacksmith, he operated a shop at Fourth and Borden Streets. He served on the Fall River City Council for two terms, once in 1860 and again in 1864. As a machinist, he was employed at the Crystal Spring Bleachery in Assonet, Massachusetts, from 1885-1888. He served as high priest for the Royal Arch Chapter of the Masons. He died at his residence in Fall River in 1907 of organic valvular disease of the heart. He is buried in Oak Gove Cemetery in that city. Questioned at the inquest and summoned as a witness for the trial before the superior court, he was not called upon to testify."

(Bolding after Hiram's name is mine, Reasonwhy's)

This is HIram Harrington's Mason membership card.

Posted: **Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:49 pm**

What a find! KG, that’s wonderful :)

Posted: **Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:28 pm**

Yes Kat:

Just some friendly FYI.

Granite Block was on South Main Street. When I was a child we always mentioned that we were gong down to Main Street. No one ever specified 'north' or 'south'. Some would say Main Street and others would mention they were going downtown.

I worked at Terminal Bakery which had its start in the Granite block. It was by the bus station in the fifties and sixties at the rear of the Block. Being near the Bus Terminal it got its name.

Below is a post card circa Lizzie. What you see is the corner of Pocasset Street and South Main. Behind the Granite Block off to the left you can see the Pocasset Mill. Way off to the right, in red, is the Mohican Hotel on the corner of North Main, Bedford, South main, and Central Streets. All four streets come together there.

In the post card on the corner you can see Brady's Drugs on the Corner of Pocasset and South Main. They had an address of 47 South Main Street. South Main Street started with the Academy of Music building, where South Main, Poasset, and Pleasant Streets came together at the time.

I worked at Terminal Bakery for five years, during Jr. High and High School days. I was the donut fellow and I had the deep-frier burns to prove it.

Posted: **Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:47 pm**

Here is the corner of So., No. Main and Central Streets. Behind you is Bedford street. Granite Block is just to the left with Pocasset mill behind it. The Mohican is off to the right. You are looking west down Central street from the intersection of both Main Streets. The old photo below was taken around the late twenties-early thirties. What you see below is a before and now shot.

Posted: **Thu Feb 24, 2022 4:03 pm**

Emma was a strange duck, a vagabond. All the money in the world to have her own place, yet she was constantly living with others and moving her residence around. She lived with the Bucks, the Gardners, Brownells, at the Minden in Providence by herself, me thinks, and in New Hampshire with another spinster. She never owned a home, with the exception of Maplecorft, along with her sister. Then decided to leave. You wrote about this Kat so you would be better suited to comment on it.

This being said, I understand that in late Victorian Times single gals often sort out the companionship of other women to share expense and company. Strength in numbers. Emma was probably no different. And although Stefani takes exception with me about using the word 'vagabond', by today's standards she certainly was a bit peripatetic.

Poor thing.

Posted: **Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:07 pm**

Thanks MB. I love the photos. The before and now is a total change. Some landfill somewhere is chock full of those buildings!

Posted: **Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:38 pm**

Yes, Camgarsky4, by all means, you're welcome.

Of course the Granite Block I remember was not the same building that Lizzie saw. It burnt down in 1928 a year after she died. But was rebuilt. And I had little exposure to the new Granite Block before they demolished it to build RT195. When they demolished the Granite Block the Terminal Bakery moved a mile north. It was there where I worked.

I grew up far from Lizzie-land in the east end, better know as the Flint, near Notre Dame Church, and not far from the Emery House. As a little boy we use to ride our Schwinn Banana bikes down Pleasant Street, where I lived, to the Taunton River and the old Bowen Coal Yard to fish for salt water flat fish. We would stop at the Granite Block for a soda after we all argued about how many coins we had in our pockets and whether we could afford one or not. And I mean one bottle which all three of us drank from and fought over.

Below is a photo of what the old Granite Block location looks like today, along with a post card showing the old and the new Granite block. One building that survived the fire of 28, or should I say was rebuilt, was Andrew Borden's Union Savings Bank. You can see the building off to the right in one of the postcards and in the google photo. Granite block stood across the street where you see all the flag poles. And just behind it, where you see a cluster of trees is a large bank building. The Durfee theater once stood there.

It was at the Durfee theater that I experienced my first rock concert.

Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention and the Vanilla Fudge.

"SET ME FREE WHY DON'T YOU BABE. GET OUT OF MY LIFE, WHY DON'T YOU BABE. YOU REALLY DON'T WANT ME, YOU JUST KEEP ME HANGING ON."

Well, I'm certain you don't remember those lyrics. It was 1967.

Posted: **Sun May 17, 2026 10:58 am**

Here is the post that mentioned it. Thing that got my attention was the visit was on August 5th.

Reasonwhy wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:02 am From the thread, “Iron or Lead?”
“Airmid
Report Quote
Post Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:00 am

—(part of Airmid’s post omitted here——————————
….There's this other very interesting newspaper article, from the Fall River Globe, August 6th: http://lizzieandrewborden.com/NewResear ... oversy.htm
(scroll all the way down for the complete article!).
It tells about the movements of John Morse on the evening of Friday the 5th. He goes out around 8 o'clock to get the mail at the post office, followed by a large crowd. Then, at around 9, he goes out for a second time and is followed by Officer Minnehan to Turner Street, where Hiram Harrington lived.
I would say that after 9 o'clock in the evening was hardly an appropriate time for a social call in those days. So I always thought that there was something pressing that Morse had to discuss with Harrington on Friday evening. If the "Hiram Harrington-interview" had been published on the 5th, Morse's actions would have made perfect sense: he picked up the mail and the newspapers, went home, read the interview, and wasted no time in telling Hiram Harrington what he thought of him!
But if the Hiram Harrington interview wasn't published until the 6th, none of that could have happened.

So that leaves me again with a bunch of questions:
- Is the information in the "Intense Excitement" newpaper article correct and accurate?
- If none of the newspapers published the interview with Hiram Harrington on the 5th, how come that all 3 major Fall River newspapers, all evening newspapers, and allegedly all competitors, managed to publish exactly the same interview in their August 6th editions?
- If the story of Morse's visit to Turner Street on the 5th is correct, what could have been so pressing to account for such a visit?
- Would that have been the occasion that old blabbermouth Morse told Hiram Harrington about Lizzie's alibi?
- Who was the reporter who had the interview with Hiram Harrington? I always assumed it was Porter, but that might not be correct.
- Or was there, as Harry suggests, a special edition on the 5th of one of the newspapers, or any other written source, that originally published the interview?

It would be so easy to answer that last question with "Yes", since that would solve most of my questions. But apparently it's not as easy as that. I'll keep looking for information and hints, though! Any thoughts, information or ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Airmid.”

From the the thread, “Iron or Lead?”
“Kat
Report Quote
Post Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:46 pm

According to Harry's research, the (only?) case-related character on Turner Street, other than the Harrington's was "Maurice Libby" a hairdresser at #4. I'm not sure what his *role* was.
I suppose it was Hiram that Morse saw.

These men might have thought they could control the fortune. There could be lots of things they needed to discuss- just use the imagination, I guess.”

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?

Re: What do we know about Emma?