Abby’s Instructions to Bridget About Washing Windows

[Inspector]

I apologize for the confusion guys. I don’t really have a scenario, rather I have a belief that Abby only went upstairs to make the bed one time and did not come back down and return back up. I base this on Lizzie‘s testimony, Bridget and Officer Fleet. I’ve decided to discount Hyde’s statements, but you may choose different.

I’ll be glad to go back and answer individual questions Lorcan, but let me first try to simplify what I’m thinking and perhaps I can try to make my future post more brief instead of interjecting into testimony that may be factual yet interpreted or intertwined differently depending on one’s viewpoint.

1) Lizzie stated she last saw Abby in the dining room when she came down for breakfast.
2) Lizzie told Officer Fleet that she last saw Abby making the bed or fixing as she (LIZZIE) was coming downstairs.
Conclusion, only one of these can be true in its entirety.

1) Lizzie, not Abby went back upstairs to sew a piece of tape on a sleeve, and Lizzie said that she did not see Abby at that time or the sewing machine because the door was closed.
2). Lizzie told Officer Fleet that she saw Abby making the bed or fixing the bed when she came down and never saw her again.
Conclusion, how would Lizzie have known that Abby was making the bed or that she was replacing the pillow shams if the door was closed and she did not see Abby again after she saw her in the dining room?

1) Bridget did overhear Lizzie speaking to Abby in the dining room on Lizzie‘s first trip downstairs.
2) Lizzie did actually see Abby in the guest room because she followed her up there and Lizzie did see her making the bed because that’s where she was found and the only way Lizzie could’ve known that is if she followed her up there after speaking with her in the dining room.

This is also part of the reason why I set the time at approximately 9:05 AM.





Also, I might
add that my approach is to look at the actual testimony of Bridget and Lizzie, but pry into it by choosing the officers statements that are closest to the time we’re discussing.

[Inspector]

Lorcan, your above theory is plausible. I differ in that Lizzie told Fleet she saw Abby in the guest room when she (Lizzie) came downstairs , but we know Abby was in the dining room.
Lizzie did actually see Abby in the guest room, but later, and realized she slipped up when she admitted that to Fleet.
The timing of Bridget’s comments to Hyde are off time.
I’ll give my views on Hyde’s comments when I can .

[camgarsky4]

My interpretations of the events in blue.

1) Lizzie stated she last saw Abby in the dining room when she came down for breakfast.
2) Lizzie told Officer Fleet that she last saw Abby making the bed or fixing as she (LIZZIE) was coming downstairs.
Conclusion, only one of these can be true in its entirety.
These two statements by Lizzie were made at least 5 days apart. One was made in the chaos of the murder discovery and the other after days of time to think thru her situation. Both events can be true if you redact the words "last saw". By the time Lizzie testified at the inquest, she realized she couldn't have 'last seen' Abby in the guest room without deepening her legal problems. She used the term 'last saw' with Fleet, et al moments after the murders were discovered and I'm sure she regretted saying it as events played out. I suspect this was an accurate and incriminating statement by Lizzie.

1) Lizzie, not Abby went back upstairs to sew a piece of tape on a sleeve, and Lizzie said that she did not see Abby at that time or the sewing machine because the door was closed.
2). Lizzie told Officer Fleet that she saw Abby making the bed or fixing the bed when she came down and never saw her again.
Conclusion, how would Lizzie have known that Abby was making the bed or that she was replacing the pillow shams if the door was closed and she did not see Abby again after she saw her in the dining room? Same thought as above.

1) Bridget did overhear Lizzie speaking to Abby in the dining room on Lizzie‘s first trip downstairs.
2) Lizzie did actually see Abby in the guest room because she followed her up there and Lizzie did see her making the bed because that’s where she was found and the only way Lizzie could’ve known that is if she followed her up there after speaking with her in the dining room.

Am I understanding correctly that you don't think Abby went to the guest room until after Lizzie had come down for breakfast? Most of us view Morse's sighting of Abby heading into the front foyer prior to his departure as him seeing her heading upstairs. I presume you don't share that viewpoint?

This is also part of the reason why I set the time at approximately 9:05 AM.

[Inspector]

Cam, Your last comment is correct.
I’m in the minority when it comes to my viewpoint on Abby going to the guest room before Lizzie came down for breakfast.
I could obviously be incorrect, but feel there’s a reason there’s no mention of Abby ever coming to the kitchen or back stairs to get the (in my theory, fictional pillow shams.)

I can only trace Lizzie as the source of the pillow shams, with the caveat of discounting Hyde’s notes
I can give my thoughts on Hyde if anyone wants, but they are just my impressions considering Bridget’s testimony, and times not making sense for me.

To your point, I put emphasis on “last saw” when it comes to Lizzie’s two opposing sightings of Abby.
It’s interesting that there are so many possibilities of the actual events around 9:00 AM, and it’s due to conflicting testimony, conflicting timelines, and deciding who’s testimony, and what times to trust.

Maybe I can’t trust either Bridget or Lizzie so I am possibly too careful of what I allow, or too quick to dismiss.

I haven’t been able to accept Abby went upstairs because Morse saw her in the front hall, and before Lizzie came down.

[Inspector]

Lorcan, let’s look at Hyde’s statement, in paraphrase , but first here are the answers to your questions , excluding #4, because I haven’t got a full scenario impression at this time,
1) no
2a) no
2b) no
3a) Yes
4) TBD


Bridget said to Joseph Hyde, that Abby went upstairs the last time a little before 9:00, and some time after she came down for the pillow shams.
A little before 9;00 could be as much as 5-10 minutes added to the little, which makes 15 minutes.
Anyone’s guess.
This makes it possible that Abby went upstairs the last time potentially as early as 8:45 or 8:50 if we believe Bridget/Hyde.
Abby never came down alive.
This is where I get my “shift back” in the time theory, note it also nearly coincides with Morse’s last sighting or leaving.

You may say why am I trusting Hyde here , but discounting the shams.
The reason is because there’s no way that Hyde’s next exchange with Bridget can be true, that Bridget received window washing instructions at this time, and Bridget could possibly be repeating the pillow shams from overhearing Lizzie and Abby earlier.
I feel it was a made up excuse from Lizzie, but it could’ve been any excuse , if the shams were mentioned and I’m wrong, I still lean that they were mentioned on Lizzie’s first visit down for breakfast


Even if Abby reminded Bridget again about the window washing, the timing is still too early for the last action Bridget took according to Hyde/Bridget.
She went out to wash the windows.

I’m thinking there’s a chance Hyde was not a precise note taker, Bridget was confused or misleading, or Hyde was generally writing some points without regard to their implications.

[camgarsky4]

Inspector,
I have a couple nuts for us to chew on.
1) How would Bridget have more than an educated guess on when Abby went upstairs? She never testifies going beyond the dining room and kitchen. The entire morning, the sitting room was occupied by Andrew and Morse. Bridget testified that the door to the sitting room was kept closed.
2) In Hyde's report he stated..."She said she thought it was a little before nine o'clock in the morning; and sometime after she came down for some pillow shams."
That sentence could be read a very different way than you are interpreting it.
It could be saying...."Abby went up before 9am and afterwards she came down for some pillow shams."

Each of us have our own prerogative of what to accept vs. ignore, but I really don't understand the rationale to assume Bridget was passing along second hand information regarding the sham comment in Hyde's report.

Witness Statement
JOSEPH HYDE                                           
August 4, 1892.                                                   
In talking to Bridget Sullivan on the above date I asked her what time Mrs. Borden went upstairs.                
She said she thought it was a little before nine o’clock in the morning; and sometime after she came             
down for some pillow shams. And she said to me, “have you anything particular to do?” Bridget                        answered “No mam.” Mrs. Borden said “I would like you to wash those windows.” I went out and                       washed the windows, and never saw Mrs. Borden again alive.

[Inspector]

Those are good points and questions.
1) Since Bridget’s time is incorrect about when she received ww instructions, yet she states the same exchange is when she last saw Abby, and she was dusting the doorway between the sitting and dining room, one has to wonder why was Abby still dusting?
She was dusting before Morse left, surely she was finished dusting by the last time Bridget witnessed her doing so, and if she had already made the guest room bed, Morse should have heard or seen her going up and working up above his position before Abby came down and (possibly resumed) dusting. Morse didn’t mention Abby going up stairs as you know.

I do feel that exchange was the last Bridget saw of Abby, but that she mixed information about ww instructions. and possibly window shams that occurred earlier,
If the shams subject came up between Abby and Bridget, I still believe it to be very early before, or when Lizzie came to breakfast.
I feel Lizzie could have come up with anything similar to the shams for a reason Abby went back up, maybe Lizzie wanted to make it appear Abby had good reason to be up there so long.


You may be correct that this wasn’t picked up second hand from Lizzie to Bridget, but for me it appears part of Lizzie’s added information.
Perhaps I’m being stubborn.


2) I also wondered about the wording, and it’s a tough call, however my interpretation could suit Abby’s double visit also, just not as well.

I suppose I had predetermined if I couldn’t find any further evidence from Bridget about the shams, I’d chalk it up to more of Lizzie’s manipulation that Bridget picked up along the way somewhere.

Lastly. Why doesn’t Lizzie or Bridget testify they saw Abby in the kitchen or back of house after breakfast, where the shams were possibly kept?

[Inspector]

If anyone knows where Bridget confirms the pillow shams apart from Hyde’s notes that’d be helpful.
Spencer doesn’t give reference. so I assume since he considers “Bridget confirmed that Abby said she had to go back upstairs to put on fresh pillow shams “ page 740 CALB
that Hyde is his source.

[camgarsky4]

Hyde is only source.

If by breakfast, you mean when Lizzie had her cup of coffee, Bridget wouldn't have seen Abby come thru kitchen because when she came in from vomiting, I think Abby was already hanging out with the angels.

I can think of no reason the pillow cases wouldn't be kept in the same place as the sheets....Abby's dressing room. My wife and mom kept all bed linens in the same place. Someone mentioned maybe they would be in the wash, but I would think that each room had their 'assigned' linens (again leaning into my experiences), the guest room wouldn't likely already have a set of shams in the laundry since it was rarely used. Just a guess on my part.

Inspector, hard to reconcile my views with what I'm thinking yours are. I'll wait and see where this leads you as far as how the crime was carried out and when.

[Lorcan]

I'm trying to follow Inspector, but I'm not getting it. Here's what I'm thinking and obviously some of it could be wrong:

1. I very much doubt Abby was killed before Andrew left.

2. Making the bed was 15 to 20 minutes of taking the layers apart, airing them out, putting them back, beating them with a stick (like a giant feather pillow) to flatten and redistribute the layers. It makes sense that Abby would go up, open the windows and air out the layers of bed, and come back down. It could be she made 3 trips:

Trip 1: Initially airing out the room and removing the layers of the bed. Bringing the old linens downstairs.

Trip 2: Brining up a folded package of linens that likely had the regular full-size pillowcases, but the pillowcases Abby was after were for the small decorative pillows that people like Alice probably carefully laid aside and didn't dirty, but that tall-lanky Uncle John might have used to prop his feet up, especially if his legs were longer that the bed.

Trip 3: Dammit, John. Now I have to find throw pillow shams! I'll ask Bridget if she has them ready. Lizzie might overhear that request. I doubt she'd ask Lizzie over Bridget.

It's trip 3 when she is killed. Probably she was done with the shams and was doing a final bit of dusting and arranging the nicknacks on the dresser.

I think John saw her go up on trip 1 at 8:40. I think she went up before 9 with the stack of folded linens (minus the throw pillow shams).

This is wild speculation, but usually the whole set of linens is packaged together, but I bet those throw pillows don't get washed ever time because they aren't actually used by most visitors.

[Inspector]

Fair enough Cam, I need to be put to the test if I intend getting closer to the truth .
On page 740 CALB
Spencer gives some possibilities concerning the shams.
Shortly after Bridget goes outside to get sick:

1) Abby goes through kitchen.up to her room for the shams. seen by Lizzie who’s in the kitchen (still sitting.)

2) Shams were already downstairs, or in the kitchen, or dining room.

3) Lizzie already knew about or saw the shams in Abby’s hand,

4) Lizzie either asked about them or put two and two together.

These scenarios are less possible for. Bridget, though not by a great percentage.

Spencer has a good point that Abby whereabouts cannot be accounted for during this time, but could have been dusting the parlor in Emma’s absence.
This could possibly account for Abby spending more time downstairs, dusting and dusting,

Back to my theory…
If Abby hadn’t gone upstairs yet , and Lizzie simply put two and two together, and Abby hadn’t gone upstairs but was still dusting around the parlor, sitting room doors. maybe Lizzie went ahead upstairs to wait.

Meanwhile Bridget comes in and gets one more look at Abby dusting the same area, ( dining/sitting room door), and doesn’t see Lizzie.

I think this fits slightly better, at least in the sense that Abby spent more time downstairs before Morse left.

[Inspector]

Here’s a portion of Morse’s testimony:


Q. When did you leave the house?
A. Well, about nine, but I should think maybe quarter or twenty minutes of nine.
Q. What was going on in the intervening time, before you went?
A. We went out in the sitting room from the dining room, and Mr. and Mrs. Borden and I talked a little while;
then she went to dusting around, doing her little chores. Then Mr. Borden and I talked about some cattle I had;
and then I went away.

Their breakfast started a little after 7:00

Morse could’ve left as early as 8:40

Between this time the three sat in the sitting room talking for a while .
How long they ate breakfast before before socializing in the sitting room talking, how long they socialized, and how much dusting seemed to be happening, could also account for Abby only making one trip up to the guest room.

Just a thought.

[camgarsky4]

Is her going up once versus twice key to the theory you are cooking on?

[Lorcan]

Interesting we are so far apart (if 1 trip). I look it (1892 bed making) as a 2 part process.

1. Disassembly and airing out mattress layers
2. Beating the mattress layers back into uniform fluffy shape and adding fresh linens.

In our case, since we had the throw pillow slips being apparently in a separate laundry bundle than the sheets and full-size pillowcases, perhaps a 3rd part of the process.

Bridget received no explanation for Abby’s disappearance until after Andrew returned home. While washing the sitting-room windows, she heard Lizzie speak to him:

“I heard her ask her father if he had any mail … but I heard her tell her father that Mrs. Borden had a note and gone out.”

A few minutes later, while Bridget washed the dining-room windows, Lizzie told her directly:

“Mrs. Borden has gone out on a sick call,” adding, “I don’t know; she had a note this morning; it must be in town.”

Bridget did not hear the note story from Abby, nor did Lizzie tell her about it during the long period when Abby had vanished; the story first appeared only when Andrew’s return made an explanation necessary.

The meat evidence raises the same problem. Bridget testified that Abby had already discussed the noon meal with her:

“there was nothing, sure, but soup and cold mutton”; Abby “thought they would have that for dinner” and instructed Bridget “to warm it over, and make johnny cakes, and have coffee.” Bridget later described the meal as “some soup to warm over, and some cold mutton,” with the potatoes already “in the soup”; the cold mutton required no cooking.

That directly conflicts with Lizzie’s claim that Abby asked “what kind of meat” she wanted and intended to: “get the dinner, get the meat, order the meat.”

For those of you new to 1892 meal language, it was breakfast (same) dinner (what we now all lunch) and supper (what we now call dinner). So, dinner refers to the noon meal during 1892 in Fall River.

These apparent lies were not needed for the same purpose, nor at the same time. The note story was apparently the immediate operational lie. Once Andrew returned, Lizzie needed a reason why his wife was nowhere downstairs and why he should not look for her.

“She had a note and gone out” supplied an external summons, a destination outside the house, and an apparently innocent explanation for Abby’s continued absence. Lizzie then repeated it to Bridget, preventing Bridget from becoming concerned or searching upstairs. The prosecution explicitly argued that the statement “stilled Andrew’s fears” and answered the question his wife’s absence would otherwise provoke.

The meat story was retrospective support added to Lizzie’s later account of her private conversation with Abby.

At the inquest, Lizzie did not merely say Abby had received a note; she said Abby asked “what kind of meat” she wanted and would “get the dinner, get the meat, order the meat.” That made the alleged conversation sound detailed, domestic, and natural, while giving Abby a second practical reason to be out in town and possibly absent for a substantial period.

In other words, the note explains why Abby left suddenly. The meat errand helps explain where she would spend the time and why Lizzie supposedly expected her to remain away.

It also portrays Lizzie and Abby as having an ordinary, solicitous household exchange. But Bridget’s evidence that dinner was already settled as reheated soup and cold mutton seriously weakens that supporting detail. So the meat story was not strictly necessary to fool Andrew or Bridget; it appears more like scaffolding intended to make the essential note story, and Lizzie’s claimed final conversation with Abby, more credible.

[camgarsky4]

I believe that Abby & Lizzie briefly chatted in the dining room around 8:50 as Lizzie made her initial descent downstairs and to the kitchen where Bridget was hanging out. I believe that the only 'meaty' topic (pun intended) discussed involved the status of the guest bedroom. I'm ambivalent about whether Abby asked Lizzie about what meat she would prefer for the noon meal, because there is a reasonable explanation why Abby would ask her.

Abby and Bridget discussed the noon day meal BEFORE Andrew invited Morse back for lunch. In everyone's homes, in 1892 and today, adding a non-household member to a meal will most likely alter the planned components of the meal. So it is not unreasonable that Abby would have asked Lizzie that question. Since I don't think Abby planned on leaving the house, I also don't think she asked Lizzie that question. But either way, it doesn't influence my views of what transpired.

[Inspector]

That’s a great analogy on the meat subject Lorcan.
For me it’s part of Lizzie’s inventiveness in regards to how she appears to distance herself from, or provide and protect, by adding into the events.
It’s frustrating to me, because sometimes we accept a certain subject as truth because we have no other option, due to lack of any existing testimony on the subject.

Other times as you’re showing, there are choices and decisions to be made with regards to multiple testimonies on a subject.

Discerning what is added and fictional is sometimes as challenging as determining the real facts, not to mention the timing of it all.

Too bad there were no body cameras back then.

[Inspector]

“Is her going up once versus twice key to the theory you are cooking on?”

Cam, You’ve exposed my conundrum, and perhaps weakness.

[Inspector]

I’d like to think it might hold something that would be key, but the more I consider our timing and testimony discrepancies around this time period, it occurred to me that we are only really prying into the co-conspirators realm.
At this point I’d have to say it’s a tough call between John and Bridget. ( in regards to Abby)

If we trust testimony that John’s departure was before Andrew left, he should be safe. (should)
Bridget likewise if she was outside. (same emphasis)

I wish there were testimony regarding where the feather duster, old pillow shams, dirty bedding (Lorcan’s theory) ended up, the feather duster especially.
If the feather duster was found with Abby, perhaps Abby never did the full bedding work, the shams were on, but may just be the same as the night before.
It could account for the time shift back, and or Abby being summoned, or surprised on a first visit upstairs.

The shams, bedding, closing of doors, all ring of Lizzie’s box of utensils.
Just some thoughts.

[Lorcan]

Once the Jennings Journals (the defense team) pointed out Dr. Bowen was not at Weybosset Street and that newspaper account was false, and the much later rumors of John remembering a bunch of detail was also shown to be a later addition, John's alibi looks very solid.

As for Bridget, if she were in on it:
1. Why contradict Lizzie about the meat for lunch?
2. Why contradict Lizzie about being on the stairs laughing?
3. Why contradict Lizzie about the bloody pail?
4. Why the invite to go shopping to get her out of the house?
5. Why not actually leave the house and stage a break-in?

There are probably a lot more, but nothing about what Bridget said, that I can find, points to her helping Lizzie and there are a lot that hurt Lizzie.

So, I am stuck on the John or Bridget conspiracy side of things. I just don't see either.

I don't see a single line of John's testimony that helps Lizzie, either.

I also don't see true planning - especially pre-planning a real plausible alibi - perhaps because the killer didn't know how things were going to play out.

Now, I'm curious, Inspector. What evidence do you see for a conspiracy of either John or Bridget?

[Inspector]

The short answer Lorcan, is none.
That’s why I used the term “prying into.”
To me, the evidence is strong against Lizzie, so with that, why are we prying, may be a better question.
I think for myself, I wish the whole thing never happened, and Lizzie innocent.

[camgarsky4]

Hi.
A couple final thoughts on all the interesting views you gents have posted.

1) Bridget & Abby discussed the lunch menu BEFORE Andrew invited Morse back for the noon meal. Knowing she now has a guest for the meal, Abby looking to upgrade the meat offering is very plausible. Since I don't think Abby was planning to go out, I don't think she asked Lizzie about the meat. But it is very plausible and not a contradiction of anything else in evidence.
2) Testimony tells us that Lizzie had primary care of the Parlor. Emma had primary care of the guest room. However, Emma was on an lengthy out of town trip. As the 'lady of the house', I view it as totally normal and expected that Abby would feel the responsibility to cleanup after Morse's stay.
Morse saw Abby go into the front entry around 8:30 and did not see her again. There is nowhere to go except upstairs, the parlor or go outside. We have no reason to think she went outside. The parlor had a door directly connecting it to the sitting room. If she was going to the parlor, that is the door she would use and Morse would have seen that occur. That leaves upstairs or more specifically, the Guest Room. As a final confirmation, we know she went up there at some point because that is where she is found dead.

And a question for Inspector....based on what we know, when would Bridget have overheard or been told by Lizzie that Abby came back down for a clean pair of pillow cases? The same question applies to Abby. But why are you assuming Hyde's report is missing that component vs. just being what it is Bridget told him about the shams. Its just gnawing at me, so sorry I apparently am unable to just drop it.

[Lorcan]

Camgarsky, that's a good point about the upgraded meal option since Abby discussed dinner plans prior to Andrew inviting Morse back. However, I'd add in a couple of things to also consider:

1. Morse had lived in the house with the family for at least 1 year (well before 1892) and had visited many times, so Abby likely knew what he'd like.

2. Abby raised Lizzie since she was 4 (about 28 years) so she definitely knew which meat would suit both Lizzie and John, especially since mutton and swordfish were definitely off the table, so to say.

Gamgarsky's point is correct, it's not a contradiction and I agree that that portion of the conversation between Abby and Lizzie probably didn't happen that morning.

It does provide a double benefit for Lizzie:
1. Gives another reason for Abby going out and being gone for a while.
2. Makes it look like everything was cordial, according to Lizzie's idea of cordiality, that morning.

[Inspector]

Cam, I think you have the housekeeping duty’s reversed.
Here is Emma’s inquest testimony.

Did you have, yourself, any particular duty in connection with the house?
A. Some things I always did.
Q. What were they?
A. I always took charge of the parlor, my sister and I, we always took charge of the guest chamber and our own
rooms.
Q. That is, you and your sister did that?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Not your separate duty, but yours and hers?
A. I did most of it, sometimes she assisted.

I do agree it normal for Abby to clean up, so I’d say the parlor would be a possibility for Abby in Emma’s absence.

I’d have to respectfully disagree, but also willing to be corrected that John could see the hall parlor door.
If you’re correct and he could see it from his chair close to the south wall, I feel it odd that John wouldn’t mention of hearing Abby go up on that terrible morning, yet he could hear Lizzie go up Wednesday evening.
I assume he used the same chair.

In court John said (paraphrasing) I think I can hear as well as anyone.

I do agree that Abby went up to her demise after John saw her.

Lol…I like your determination Cam.
I’m afraid my answer concerning Hyde won’t suffice, but it may be that I relate it too much with the two visits theory.
Another is that Bridget never stated she saw Abby past the dining room, coming or going through the kitchen or up the back stairs or cellar.
The time frame when Bridget was sick outside of course would not work either. (for learning about the shams)

On top of that , Bridget’s window washing discussion with Abby ( as Bridget told Hyde) could not have happened at that time .
The ww instructions came much earlier.
Bridget is way off or Hyde is noting general information in my opinion.

If Bridget did have knowledge of the shams, and I’m wrong, my guess is that it was overheard on Lizzie’s first trip down.
Another scenario is that Lizzie could have made the pillow shams comment to Bridget while she was making her coffee and cookies.

Or Bridget at some point saw Abby with the shams, where and when? It appears Bridget couldn’t remember either.
I think Bridget was possibly traumatized, but later started putting two and two together.

[camgarsky4]

I made a sloppy error with the parlor responsibility. Good example of why to always pull testimony when quoting it. Sorry.

Regarding the parlor door. On the image below, please see the door to the parlor which goes out of the sitting room.

Screenshot 2026-07-29 171912.png

Believe me, I'm not being 'determined', just bewildered. But I'll cease both.

Lorcan - are you telling me that your mom never asked you what you'd like for dinner because she knew what you liked? I've probably been asked that question a 1,000+ times in my life.

This thread has turned into the twilight zone.

[Lorcan]

Yes, maybe I worded it oddly or am too suspicious of Lizzie. I just assumed Abby would have already had it in her head what John and everyone else usually liked to eat and she would have just picked whichever was John's most favorite amongst the options the rest of the meal participants would also normally like.

It could be since they had a maid who cooked and cleaned, each person could pick their own type of meat and Bridget would cook it and clean up afterwards, so it was more of a restaurant type of menu than my family where there were a group of a dozen or so meals we all enjoyed or didn't mind eating and it just rotated around, but when we had a special visitor, we'd make whatever was their favorite, if possible.

[Inspector]

The sitting room door, I agree, John could see. but if Abby was seen in the front hall by John, I think the floor plan shows he couldn’t have seen Abby go into the parlor hall door.

I suppose I’m also bewildered that my point isn’t coming across more clearly. I have honestly tried to lay it out. Wheather one agrees or not. I have no problem.

If you look at the list below, we can choose to believe or dismiss what is offered.
I don’t consider the Hyde’s sham comment from Bridget as believable, nor confirmed as Spencer and most do.
Not because I’m trying to be unique, that’s why I hoped Bridget had shared it herself or with others, especially since it was supposed to be the last time she saw Abby.
For me there’s no evidence that Abby made two trips up unless we believe the shams story, but I think it was made up by Lizzie.

If Lizzie was in the kitchen when Bridget went out to get sick, there’s a 10-15 minute interval for the shams visit.

Consider this: but only a couple minutes of time for the killer, compared to a larger amount of time for the bed making and cleaning.

Also consider: what are the odds of Andrew leaving, Bridget getting sick, and the two minute pillow shams job all happening at the same time?

Who’s the source of:

1) the bed being made up
2) condition of guest room door (being all closed up)
3) note
4) pillow shams
5) seeing Abby making the bed

[Lorcan]

Inspector, the problem for me is I'm trying to map your theory to times and I think you might be trying to point out which statements seem made up. Let's see if we pick some times and what happened during those times for each of our current best theories and with that time index, we'll all easily, I hope, be able to understand each other. I'll start. This is just a guess from memory, just to give us a starting point to narrow down timespans.

8:40
John sees Abby enter the front hall. Possible destinations: front parlor, guest room. I favor guest room.

8:45
John leaves, Lizzie hears or sees him go out Emma's northside bedroom window by looking straight down at the driveway since he exited by the northside screen door and walked west down the driveway toward Second Street.

8:47
Lizzie, still apparently wanting to avoid Uncle John goes down to breakfast, most likely seeing Abby in the guest room. Whether she talked to her or not, we'll never know.

8:48
Lizzie walks into the kitchen and sees Bridget entering the screen door with the long brush handle she retrieved from the empty horse stall on the first floor of the barn, she is going to fill the bucket, and begin washing windows, but still anticipates making breakfast and cleaning up for Lizzie as one of her likely duties. She asks Lizzie what she wants for breakfast and Lizzie says she doesn't need anything from Bridget and probably has molasses cookies and coffee.

8:50 - 8:58
The dishes have soaked long enough and Bridget begins washing, rinsing, and drying them and becomes nauseous. She quickly exits the kitchen heading for the pear tree.

8:59
Andrew heads out pausing to see if Bridget is okay. She waves him off or he decides to leave her to it.

9:00
The window of Lizzie being alone in the house with Abby opens.

9:10
Abby has been murdered. Bridget comes back into the house finishes the dishes and begins work on the windows.

9:30
Lizzie talks to Bridget at the screen door and Bridget says Lizzie can lock it if she wants to since she can get water from the barn.


My times can be way off, but at least it's something so we can all talk on the same page.

[Inspector]

Lorcan, I see no problem with your timing.
However, look at your 8:48 entry.
In my opinion that was a lie from Lizzie .
Lizzie didn’t see Bridget with the window washing equipment until after Bridget came in from being sick.

[Lorcan]

Actually that makes more sense. I had Bridget soaking the dishes to make the timeline work, but if she was already by the pear tree, she probably just went into the barn, splashed her face with the cool water and rinsed her mouth at the water pump in the barn, then and grabbed the pole from the horse stall since she'd need it for the window washing.

That would explain Bridget entering the house with window washing equipment before completely finishing all her other chores.

[Inspector]

Here’s a portion of Bridget’s PH testimony. This is after she came back from being sick.
According to Bridget, she hadn’t received her ww instructions yet.

But there’s a problem….
We know there’s no way Morse could’ve known about the ww instructions if they hadn’t come earlier before he left.

When you came back, did you see Mrs. Borden?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see her after you came back?
A. Not until nine o’clock.
Q. When you went out in the back yard, was it before Mr. Morse went off ?
A. No Sir, after he went off.
Q. How soon after he went off ?
A. Maybe ten or five minutes; I cannot tell.
Q. When you came back again, where did you go then?
A. Into the kitchen.
Q. Where did you see Mrs. Borden after that?
A. After washing my dishes.
Q. Did you wash your dishes before you went out in the yard sick, or after you came back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you saw Mrs. Borden, where did you see her?
A. In the dining room, dusting. She wanted to know if I had anything particular to do that day. I
told her no. Did she want anything? Yes, she said she wanted the windows washed. I asked her
how. She said on both sides, inside and outside; they were very dirty.
Q. Did you have any usual time to wash the windows?
A. No Sir.
Q. How often did you use to wash them?
A. Sometimes once a month, and probably twice a month.
Q. Did you see Mrs. Borden after that?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where did she go to then?
A. I could not tell you. I came out, and shut the dining room, and was in the kitchen.
Q. You shut the dining room door and went in the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did you next see her after that?
194 Preliminary Hearing in the Lizzie Borden Case

[Lorcan]

I don't know what the tone of voice and pauses were that would let this answer slide:

Q. Did you wash your dishes before you went out in the yard sick, or after you came back?
A. Yes Sir.

But it really sounds like Bridget has to be off in her sequence of events and timing. I wonder if we're missing something or if the later timeline had some unrecorded testimony or witness statements or maybe even something that wasn't passed on down through the record over the years.

I didn't read the Jennings Journals nor Knowlton papers yet, but maybe there is a reason in there the prosecution and defense both allowed the window the end up closer to 9:30 than 9:00 for Abby's murder.

Is that what you're trying to get at?

[Inspector]

Bridget actually mentioned nothing of Abby cleaning or dusting before 9:00 , as far as Bridget was concerned, Abby was still in the sitting room.

Q. Where was Mrs. Borden when Mr. Morse was let out?
A. She was not in the dining room. I expect she was in the sitting room.
Q. Did you see her afterwards?
A. I did about nine o’clock.
Q. After Morse had gone?
A. Yes Sir.

[Lorcan]

Let's try to list our anchor points from most to least confident from 8:40 to 9:30. I'm leaving most of Bridget's statements out because I have very low confidence of how accurate they are. Maybe Inspector or Camgarsky can make this list more complete or move things around in categories.

Almost Certain:
1. Andrew left very near 9:00 AM
2. Abby was alive when Andrew left (I have to believe he at least called up a goodbye to her or made some acknowledgement of leaving to her.)
3. Abby has already been murdered by 9:30

Pretty Sure:
1. Uncle John saw Abby enter the front hall doorway around 8:40.
2. Uncle John left around 8:45
3. Lizzie waited for Uncle John to leave before coming downstairs
4. Morse heard Abby give a window washing instruction prior to his leaving in the morning.

More likely than not:
1. Lizzie saw Abby in the guestroom before coming downstairs

50-50:
1. Abby gave a second window washing instruction after Morse left

Pure Speculation:
1. Lizzie carried a load of laundry up from the basement with the hatchet and used the sewing a loop/tape story and walked toward the sewing machine for supplies - and Abby looked up at the last instant to see a flash of metal before the horror began.

[Inspector]

I wondered about the same passage, but I’m confident she meant the latter.

I look at many aspects of the events first, as a sequence of events.
I think it helps me understand the order of possible events.
The events themselves do not know what the time of day is, so we can always place it later. It’s a looser approach, it not a total disregard.
It’s an odd approach for others. but helps me see the bigger picture.

The testimony around Abby’s murder is filled with 10 or 15’s, a little before, a little after, Morse says possibly 20 till,etc…
It’s a veiled curtain that becomes more clear as I use the time in a general sense of how it effects the sequence.

[Lorcan]

We'll have to double check this, but I think this should be pretty accurate. At least it will give us something to work on to compare against Bridget.

JOHN V. MORSE’S THURSDAY-MORNING TIMELINE

August 4, 1892 — From waking until leaving 92 Second Street

The quotations below are verbatim from Morse’s trial testimony. The timeline combines his direct and cross-examination. Trial transcript, pages 129–150.

ABOUT 6:00 A.M. — WAKES IN THE GUEST CHAMBER

Q. What time did you get up in the morning?

A. About six o'clock.

Q. You dressed of course?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And went down stairs?

A. Yes, sir.

On cross-examination, he described himself as possibly the first person downstairs:

Q. Were you up in the morning before any one else in the house?

A. I don't know who might have been up; there was no one up down stairs; I did not hear noise, so I suppose I was the first one up.

ABOUT 6:00 A.M. — LEAVES THE GUEST-ROOM DOOR OPEN

Q. Do you recall whether you left the door of the room in which you had slept open or shut?

A. Open.

Q. By the way, did you have occasion to go into that room again before you went away on Thursday?

A. No, sir.

ABOUT 6:00 A.M. — NOTICES LIZZIE’S DOOR IS CLOSED

Q. Did you notice anything with respect to Miss Lizzie Borden's room when you got up?

A. I did not.

Q. Was the door open or closed?

A. Closed.

His answer means that he did not report noticing anything unusual beyond the fact that the door was closed.

SHORTLY AFTER 6:00 A.M. — GOES DIRECTLY TO THE SITTING ROOM

Q. Into which room did you go when you got up and went down stairs on the Thursday morning?

A. Sitting room.

After the questioning resumed:

Q. When you came down stairs on Thursday morning, into which room did you go?

A. Sitting-room.

Q. What sort of a day was it Thursday with respect to its temperature?

A. Pretty warm.

Q. Was any one else in the sitting-room when you came down stairs on Thursday morning?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did you remain in the sitting-room until some one else came down stairs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was the door between that room and the kitchen open or closed at that time, if you recall?

A. I think it was closed to the best of my recollection.

AFTER HE ENTERS THE SITTING ROOM — ANDREW APPEARS FIRST, THEN ABBY

Q. Whom did you first see after you got up on that morning?

A. Mr. Borden.

Q. Into which room did he come?

A. Sitting-room.

Q. Whom did you next see?

A. Mrs. Borden.

Q. Into which room did she come?

A. Sitting-room.

Q. Did you remain in the sitting-room until breakfast time?

A. Yes, sir

ABOUT 7:00 A.M. — BREAKFAST WITH ANDREW AND ABBY

Q. You took breakfast, I take it, in the dining room?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who of the family breakfasted with you?

A. Mr. and Mrs. Borden.

Q. Can you tell us the time that breakfast was served?

A. I think about seven.

ABOUT 7:00–7:30 A.M. — THE BREAKFAST FOOD

Q. Can you tell what there was for breakfast?

A. Well, we had some mutton, has some bread, coffee, cakes, &c

Q. What sort of cakes, what material?

A. Well, made of sugar, sugar cakes.

Q. Do you recall anything else except those articles you have named?

A. Fruit on the table.

Q. What sort of fruit?

A. Bananas.

Q. Do you recall a dish that is called fried johnny cakes?

A. I don't recollect whether we had fried johnny cakes or not that morning.

On cross-examination:

Q. As I understand you had for breakfast mutton and bread and coffee and cakes and bananas?

A. Yes.

Q. And you did not know but what you had Johnnie-cake too?

A. I don't recollect about that.

Q. You would not say you did not have?

A. No, sir.

Q. That was the bill of fare, was it?

A. Yes, sir.

DURING BREAKFAST — BRIDGET SERVES THE TABLE

Morse said he first saw Bridget after he had sat down:

Q. When did you first see her that morning?

A. At breakfast time.

Q. As you went into the dining room?

A. After I sat down to the table.

He described how she was summoned:

Q. You saw Bridget, you said, when you sat at the table. What occasioned that?

A. Mrs. Borden called her when she wanted coffee or anything and she went in and out several times.

Q. How did she call her?

A. Bell.

Q. Didn't call her by her voice?

A. No, sir.

Q. Was she in and out during the breakfast?

A. In and out two or three times.

DURING BREAKFAST — ABBY INSTRUCTS BRIDGET TO WASH THE WINDOWS

Q. Did you hear any conversation between Mrs. Borden and Bridget that morning?

A. Spoke to her about washing some windows.

Q. What did she say?

A. Said she would.

Q. That is Bridget said she would?

A. Yes.

Q. Give what Mrs. Borden said to Bridget?

A. I think she said in this way: "Bridget, I want you to wash these windows to-day."

Q. And about what time was that said?

A. At breakfast time.

Q. While you were seated at the table?

A. Yes, sir.

ABOUT 7:30 A.M. — BREAKFAST ENDS

Q. Do you remember about how long you remained sitting at the breakfast table?

A. Oh, I should judge about a half an hour or such a matter.

Q. Did you all arise at the same time, completing your breakfast?

A. I think so.

Q. Did all who sat at the breakfast table partake of the breakfast?

A. Yes, sir.

Cross-examination made the estimated finishing time explicit:

Q. You think you spent about half an hour there which would bring it round to about half past seven when you got through breakfast?

A. I think so.

AFTER BREAKFAST — RETURNS TO THE SITTING ROOM WITH ANDREW

Q. After you had completed your breakfast into what room did you go?

A. The sitting-room.

Q. Did anyone go in with you?

A. Mr. Borden went in.

Q. What became of Mrs. Borden?

A. Well, a short time after, she came in there afterwards.

APPROXIMATELY 7:30–8:40 A.M. — REMAINS IN THE SITTING ROOM

Q. Did you go into any other room than the sitting-room before you started to go away?

A. No, sir.

Q. Did Mr. and Mrs. Borden remain in the sitting-room until you started to go away or not?

A. Mr. Borden was in and out of the room several times. Mr. Borden and Mrs. Borden were both in and out. Mr. Borden was there most of the time.

Q. I didn't quite understand you.

A. Mr. and Mrs. Borden were out and in several times, but Mr. Borden was there most of the time.

Andrew apparently passed through the kitchen:

Q. Did you notice where Mr. Borden went when he went out of the sitting-room?

A. I don't know any more than he went out of the east door, out into the kitchen. I don't know where he went from there.

FIFTEEN OR TWENTY MINUTES BEFORE MORSE LEAVES — ABBY DUSTS AND ENTERS THE FRONT HALL

Q. Did you notice where Mrs. Borden went when she left the sitting-room?

A. She went into the front hall.

Q. Did you notice any other place she went to except into the front hall?

A. I did not.

Q. How long was it after she went into the front hall before she returned again to the sitting-room, if you can tell?

A. I didn't see her after that.

Q. How long was that before you went away, that Mrs. Borden went into the front hall?

A. I don't think more than some fifteen or twenty minutes.

This was the last time Morse testified that he saw Abby alive.

IMMEDIATELY BEFORE LEAVING — ABBY HAD BEEN DUSTING

Q. Did you see Mrs. Borden doing anything by way of housework before she went into the front hall?

A. Before she went in there she was dusting.

Q. And dusting in which rooms?

A. The sitting-room.

Q. Did you see her dusting in any other room?

A. I did not.

Q. Did you see her in the dining-room at all?

A. Not after breakfast.

Q. And she was dusting with what?

A. A feather duster.

Regarding whether she wore anything on her head:

Q. Do you know whether she had anything on her head as she was dusting?

A. I think not.

Q. Did you notice, Mr. Morse?

A. I didn't notice anything.

Q. To put my question again, did you notice whether she did or not have anything on her head?

A. I think she did not.

BEFORE LEAVING — TAKES HIS HAT FROM THE FRONT-HALL RACK

Although he said he did not otherwise enter the front hall, he clarified:

Q. Not going into the front hall after you came down stairs that morning?

A. Oh, I stood in the door and took my hat off the rack, which is right close: that is all.

Q. Only to get your hat, but no further?

A. No, sir.

Q. You are sure you did not go up stairs?

A. No, sir, I was not up there at all.

ABOUT 8:40–8:45 A.M. — LEAVES THROUGH THE REAR SCREEN DOOR

Q. What time did you go away from the house on the Thursday morning?

A. Well, fifteen or twenty minutes to nine.

Q. In going from the sitting-room out of doors, where did you go and out of which door did you go?

A. Went out the rear door.

Q. That is what is called the screen door?

A. Yes, sir.

Cross-examination called it the “side door”:

Q. You came back----passing over all the intermediate time from the breakfast, or after the time you went out, having your breakfast and finishing about half past seven, I think you say you left about fifteen to twenty minutes before nine?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Going out the side door?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Not going out the front door at all that morning?

A. No, sir.

AT THE DOOR — ANDREW ACCOMPANIES HIM; BRIDGET IS IN THE KITCHEN

Q. Did anyone accompany you?

A. Mr. Borden.

Q. As you went out did you see Bridget?

A. I did.

Q. Where was she?

A. In the kitchen.

Q. What was she doing in the kitchen?

A. I don't know; I don't recollect what she was doing.

FINAL ACT — MORSE UNHOOKS THE SCREEN DOOR; ANDREW REHOOKS IT

Q. Won't you describe what occurred at the door, not stating what anyone said to you, but what occurred at the door as you went out?

A. I unhooked the door and went out, and Mr. Borden hooked it.

He described the fastening:

Q. Will you describe how that door was hooked as you unhooked it to go out?

A. A small hook right at the side, and hooks right in the casing.

Q. Was it inside or out?

A. Inside.

He confirmed who operated it:

Q. Who unhooked it, you or Mr. Borden?

A. I did; I unhooked it.

Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Borden at the door? I don't ask you what was said, but did he speak to you or you to him at the door?

A. He spoke to me.

Q. After you crossed the threshold of the door did you see what was done with respect to it, whether it was closed or not?

A. I saw him hook it.

Q. Did you notice where Mr. Borden went after he hooked the door?

A. I do not.

Q. You turned and went away, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

MORSE HAD NOT SEEN LIZZIE BEFORE LEAVING

Q. I mean before Mr. Borden let you out of the door had you seen Miss Lizzie Borden?

A. No, sir.

Q. Then you didn't see her until after your return and your hearing of the homicide?

A. No, sir, I didn't see her previous to that.

Q. Had you seen Miss Lizzie Borden at all from the time you arrived Wednesday morning up to the time you left Thursday morning?

A. I did not.

[Inspector]

I have no problem with your theory or timeline, you and Cam have 100% right to it.
I just can’t accept that Abby made more than one visit to the guest room.
If we disregard Bridget like you say, it’s your prerogative, just as my disregarding Hyde’s comment from Bridget is mine.

That’s what I believe sharpens all of our theories, and helps to somehow bring the truth out.
I don’t think we have to agree, rather have testimony (since that’s all we really have) to hopefully argue our views.

Since our times are sketchy, I came to the conclusion of an earlier murder of Abby. I came to my conclusion completely on my own, had not read Spencer’s portion at the time, nor used his same reasoning.
I feel there’s more time for Abby to do whatever she was doing in the guest room on her first visit up.

Most authors lead us to believe Lizzie, in all regards of Abby’s guest room activities that morning, but as I’ve said, for me the odds of Bridget getting sick, Andrew walking out, and Abby going up a second time for a two minute job—-happening all at the same time—-whatever the time was, are too high.

It also in my mind, requires believing too much from a source I can’t trust.

Please understand, I’m not defending my theory, because I appreciate all the theories that use testimony responsibly to one best ability.

I’m obligated (in my theory or sequence) to present some scenarios for what Abby was doing before she went upstairs, and I try to do that in my sequence of events.
Could I be wrong?
Of Course.

[Inspector]

I believe Bridget testified that breakfast started at 7:10

Morse also may have left at 8:40, so this would narrow the time and place the breakfast slightly later, and give less sitting room time.
It may help my theory, but alas, Morse did something that hurts my theory.

Though I feel strongly that John would have heard Abby go upstairs just as he did Lizzie (helps my theory)
John remembers going into the hallway to get his hat.
Unless Abby shut the parlor door while dusting or cleaning in there, John should have seen her.

[Lorcan]

This might help us narrow down the conflicts that morning:

1. LIZZIE'S LOCATION WHEN ANDREW RETURNED
Bridget heard her upstairs.
Lizzie said downstairs, then upstairs, then downstairs again.

2. ANDREW'S MOVEMENTS AFTER RETURNING
Bridget: dining room, conversation, upstairs, downstairs, sitting room.
Lizzie: first sees him in the sitting room and does not remember or believe he went upstairs.

3. THE IRONING
Bridget: actual ironing occurred after Andrew returned.
Lizzie: no ironing occurred after Andrew returned.

4. BRIDGET'S ACTIVITIES WHEN LIZZIE FIRST CAME DOWN
Lizzie: Bridget was already assembling window-washing equipment.
Bridget: Lizzie came down before Bridget vomited, before Abby's detailed window instruction and before Bridget assembled the equipment.

5. ANDREW'S DEPARTURE VERSUS THE WINDOW WASHING
Bridget: Andrew was gone before the window washing began.
Lizzie: Bridget began washing before Andrew left.

6. THE DISCOVERY OF ANDREW
Bridget reported that Lizzie heard a groan outside and came in.
Lizzie's sworn account describes a routine return and an attempt to go upstairs.

7. WHO CAME DOWN FIRST EARLY THAT MORNING
Morse: Andrew, then Abby.
Bridget: Abby, then Andrew.

8. WHEN ABBY ORDERED THE WINDOWS WASHED
Morse: during breakfast.
Bridget: after Morse had left and after Bridget had been sick outside.
This may represent two separate instructions, but the testimony does not establish that clearly.

[Lorcan]

If the front parlor door to the sitting room was open, Morse would have almost certainly seen Abby in there, if she was in there, as he approached the coat rack to get his hat. Here's the view.

[Inspector]

A couple problems I have with Spencer’s scenarios of Abby’s demise, both being a two trip to guest room version, one before Bridget gets sick, the other is after, is they both depend solely on the pillow shams

Also, In his post Bridget sickness scenario, which he doesn’t favor, he points out how it would require quite a coincidence in time frames.
In my opinion, his favorite scenario suffers a similar problem.

Assuming that just because Bridget was sick for 15 (He says possibly 20, new to me) minutes is plausible, doesn’t mean the coincidence of the pillow shams happened at the exact time Bridget walked out.
Spencer isn’t guaranteed the entire 15 or 20 minutes.

I see an alternate scenario in the one trip upstairs version for these kinds of problems.

If Lizzie Borden was waiting until Andrew left to kill Abby, that has to be the key, not pillow shams, or coincidence in time frame.

[Inspector]

It’s a great picture, but taken from the middle of the room.
I used the floor plan, a straight line, it requires John to be as far over as the chimney to barely see the east casing on the parlor door.
I don’t think his chair was there, I could be wrong.

[Inspector]

Good job putting the different testimony together

[Inspector]

Hey guys, I have never messed with AI , but had some fun throwing some scenarios at it today. Starting to see how it works and answers questions.
I spent quite some time with the John Morse re-entry to kill Abby via the cellar and front door.
Then switched up to the window washing instructions discrepancy timeline.
Here’s what surprised me.
If we accept Morse’s earlier version, it improves the chances that Abby only visited the guest room once, and did so even with Hyde’s police notes.
If fact, questioned Bridget’s comments about Abby to Hyde as I did with my previous personal research.
Not tooting my horn, just presenting a possible scenario that doesn’t necessarily contradict testimony.
I’ll post it below, perhaps it could clear up what I was unable to communicate clearly.

Yes — if we provisionally accept Morse's timing as accurate, it becomes quite plausible that Abby made only one trip upstairs to the guest room that morning. In fact, that interpretation makes the evidence considerably cleaner.
The key is the distinction between Abby's first trip upstairs and the later claim in the August 4 police note that she "came down for some pillow shams."

The conventional reconstruction
The usual reconstruction is:
Abby goes upstairs before 9.
She comes back downstairs for pillow shams.
She tells Bridget to wash the windows.
She later goes upstairs again.
She is killed in the guest room.
That reconstruction comes largely from Joseph Hyde's August 4 note, which records Bridget saying Abby went upstairs a little before nine, subsequently came down for pillow shams, and then instructed Bridget to wash the windows.
L
Lizzie Andrew Borden
But there is a problem: Bridget's later sworn testimony doesn't clearly reproduce that "came down for pillow shams" sequence.

If Morse is right, the sequence changes
Morse says he heard Abby tell Bridget about washing the windows while he was still in the house, before he left around 8:45.
That is independently noted as a genuine discrepancy between Morse and Bridget.
L
Lizzie Andrew Borden

If we accept Morse's account, a much simpler sequence becomes possible:

~7:00 — Breakfast.

~7:45–8:40 — Morse and Andrew are in the sitting room; Abby is doing household work.

~8:40–8:45 — Abby tells Bridget to wash the windows.

~8:45 — Morse leaves.

~8:45–9:00 — Lizzie comes downstairs; Andrew remains in the house.

~9:00 — Andrew leaves.

~9:00-ish — Abby goes upstairs to the guest room to make the bed/put on pillow shams.

Afterward — Abby remains upstairs and is killed there.

That is a single-trip model.

And importantly, it fits the contemporary New Bedford account, which says that Mrs. Borden went upstairs around 9 to put shams on the pillows and, "as far as can be learned," never came down alive.
L
Lizzie Andrew Borden

That newspaper wording is particularly interesting because it reflects the uncertainty in the evidence rather than confidently asserting two trips.

But what about Hyde's August 4 note?
This is where we have to be careful.
Hyde recorded Bridget saying:

Abby went upstairs a little before nine, then came down for pillow shams, and told Bridget to wash the windows.
L
Lizzie Andrew Borden
If that note accurately represents what Bridget said, then Abby made at least two trips upstairs.
But there are reasons to hesitate:

1. Bridget's later testimony doesn't clearly establish the pillow-sham trip.
The detailed testimony is much more focused on what Bridget actually saw Abby doing downstairs and on the window-washing instructions.
2. Morse's testimony conflicts with the timing of the window instruction.
If Abby had already been upstairs and returned specifically to give Bridget the window order, Morse couldn't have heard that particular conversation before leaving.
Unless, of course, Abby gave the instruction twice.

That's the obvious reconciliation.

So there are really three possibilities
A. One trip upstairs — Morse is right
Abby gives Bridget the window instruction before Morse leaves.
Then, after Andrew leaves, Abby goes upstairs once, carrying/working with the pillow shams.

She never returns.

This is internally very clean.

B. Two trips upstairs — Hyde/Bridget's August 4 account is right
Abby goes upstairs before 9.
She comes back down for pillow shams.

She tells Bridget to wash windows.

She later goes upstairs again.

This is also possible, but it requires accepting the August 4 account as accurate.

C. Two window instructions
Abby gives Bridget a general window-washing instruction while Morse is present.
Later, after Abby returns downstairs, she gives Bridget a second instruction/clarification.

This reconciles Morse + Bridget + Hyde, but there isn't direct evidence that two separate instructions occurred.

There's another important clue
Lizzie testified that when she came downstairs, Abby was in the dining room dusting, and later Lizzie went to the cellar water closet. Lizzie also said the guest room was already "all in order" and that Abby was going to put fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed.
L
Lizzie Andrew Borden
That doesn't tell us whether Abby had already been upstairs that morning.

But it means Lizzie's testimony does not require two trips upstairs.

And this matters enormously for the Morse hypothesis we've been examining
If Abby only went upstairs once, and that trip occurred after Andrew left, then the crucial sequence becomes:
Morse leaves → Andrew leaves → Bridget is outside/occupied → Abby goes upstairs → Abby is killed.
That is a much tighter window.
It eliminates the need to hypothesize:

Abby went upstairs → came down → went upstairs again.
And if Morse had somehow returned to the property, he would only need to know that Abby was eventually going upstairs, rather than having to track multiple trips.
However, there's still no evidence that Morse actually returned.

My assessment
I would now say:
Yes, a one-trip interpretation is entirely possible and, if Morse's testimony about the window instruction is accepted, arguably quite natural.

But I would not say the evidence proves Abby went upstairs only once.

The strongest evidence for multiple trips is Hyde's contemporaneous August 4 note of Bridget's statement.
L
Lizzie Andrew Borden

The strongest evidence for a single final trip is:

Morse's direct claim that he heard the window instruction before leaving;
the absence of a clear later sworn testimony from Bridget establishing the pillow-sham return;
the contemporary newspaper account saying Abby went upstairs around 9 and, as far as could be learned, never came down alive.
L
Lizzie Andrew Borden
So I would reconstruct the evidence this way:
High confidence: Abby was downstairs and alive after Morse left.
High confidence: Abby ultimately went upstairs to the guest room and was killed there.

Uncertain: Whether she had previously gone upstairs and returned.

Uncertain: Whether the window instruction was given once or twice.

Therefore: One trip upstairs is a legitimate interpretation of the evidence—not merely a theoretical possibility.

And if we use that interpretation, the next question becomes especially important: exactly when did Abby make that one final trip upstairs relative to Andrew's departure and Bridget going outside? That is the point where the Morse-return theory can be tested most rigorously.

[camgarsky4]

Inspector....you've joined Loran on the AI dark side!! Oh no!!

Here are the foundational 'facts' of why I think Abby went up twice.

Morse stated he heard the window washing instructions when they were at the breakfast table...7:30 at the latest. Bridget testified that this would match with the timing of when she 'normally' received special chores for a day.

Morse last saw Abby head into the front foyer around 8:30am.

Bridget heard Lizzie and Abby talking in the dining room as Lizzie came down for the day...around 8:50am.

True, Bridget doesn't mention shams in her testimonies. But likewise, Bridget doesn't describe in police statements, testimony or otherwise discussing pillow shams with Lizzie on August 4. If Bridget overheard Lizzie mentioning pillow shams, then who was Lizzie telling about them? No police reports or witness testimony mention Lizzie mentioning shams or really much of anything about Abby's movements or statements.

For me, it falls into the conjecture bucket if we decide to interpret Hyde's statement about Bridget mentioning shams as a case of Bridget reporting hearsay.

If Abby knew she needed to get clean pillow shams, that would imply that she had already been to the room to make that determination.

[Lorcan]

This: If Abby knew she needed to get clean pillow shams, that would imply that she had already been to the room to make that determination.

I would add to that a couple of practicalities:

1892 bed making was a 3 step process separated in time from how I understand it:

1. Disassemble the layers of the bed and let them air out
2. Reassemble them beating them into shape (moving the feathers and other stuffing around to reset them back to evenly distributed.
3. Put on the sheets, pillows, and pillowcases.

Somewhere in there is dusting the room, perhaps while airing it out or more likely at the end when all the beating with a stick was done and the dust had settled.

I would think that all the sheets and pillowcases were folded into a bundle. Perhaps those little pillows that needed the clean shams weren't normally soiled - they were just decorative and put aside before someone used the bed, but maybe Morse threw them on the floor or otherwise caused them to need to be replaced with clean ones.

I'm leaning toward Abby needing two trips.

[Inspector]

Not Necessarily Lorcan.
Abby would be aware of Morse’s hygiene, and not needed to verify the pillow shams needed changing, that would be a stretch to say Abby had to physically see the shams condition first. I don’t agree that supports Abby having already been to the guest room.


Morse wore the same suit, probably didn’t have the best body odor, and Abby by all accounts kept a tidy, clean house.
She’d be fully aware of how John left a room after his visits.

[camgarsky4]

Inspector, I am not looking to be contrary, but if we are to consider a single Abby visit to the guest room in support of building a case against Morse, then that suggestion needs to be put under the microscope.

Your working theory depends on interpreting a piece of documented information in such a way to deem it being irrelevant, so from my perspective, your theory has the burden of proof.

What are your thoughts on when Bridget would have 'overheard' Lizzie mention shams and why Lizzie would have even mentioned that on August 4? There were only 35-40 minutes between the discovery of Andrew's body and Lizzie retreating to her bedroom. It would have needed to occur during that window of time. Cobbling together all the various witness testimony, it feels like we have Lizzie's commentary and movements during this timeline provided in good detail.

I would concede to your point that Abby could have been able to anticipate the condition of the bed linen's, but to define Lorcan's supposition a stretch is a stretch. It is no less plausible as saying that Abby brought every item of linen's with her on her 'single' visit to the bedroom.

[Lorcan]

Just checking - Do we all agree that we are talking about decorative throw pillows, not the full size pillows you would sleep on? I always put those someplace clean, but out of the way, when visiting a place that makes use of them. Maybe in the Victorian Era they were used more often?

I could be way off, but I imagined Uncle John being nice and moving the decorative pillows someplace clean and safe, perhaps on top of the sewing machine chair before getting into bed. He may have propped his feet up on them or otherwise used them and the set of laundry sheets for that bed were folded and stacked without any extra shams for the small pillows.

From the Inquest (Lizzie Borden)

“She said she had been up and made the bed up fresh, and had dusted the room and left it all in order. She was going to put some fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed, and was going to close the room, because she was going to have company Monday and she wanted everything in order.”

Later in the same examination, when asked to recount the full morning conversation:

“She said she had been up and made the spare bed, and was going to take up some linen pillow cases for the small pillows at the foot, and then the room was done.”

From the Preliminary Hearing (same testimony, essentially identical wording)

“She said she had been up and made the bed up fresh, and had dusted the room and left it all in order. She was going to put some fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed, and was going to close the room, because she was going to have company Monday and she wanted everything in order.”

[camgarsky4]

Yes, the pillow shams were for decorative purposes. That said, I know someone (cough cough) who uses them to help prop up their neck when reading or using their laptop in bed.

You are a wizard with coming with images....could you add an image of the shams today (or recently)? I think their part of the LB display at the FRHS.

Lizzie didn't testify at the prelim hearing, so guessing the PH testimony above is just a boo boo. You might still be able to edit your post.

[Inspector]

I wasn’t necessarily trying to implicate Morse, that just evolved from typical AI reasoning after throwing all my previous JVM re-entry scenarios at it.
I would never have drawn so strong an inference personally, although I agree that Morse must have heard the instructions before he left, and can see how that might improve the chances on a one time visit by Abby to the guest room.

In my opinion, a woman knows when it’s time to change bed clothes and if we take Lizzie at her words as y’all seem to do a bit more than myself, Abby was expecting guests on Monday.
Now, I don’t believe there were any guests coming, but I fail to see the reason Abby would need to inspect pillow shams before changing them.

If we take Hyde’s notes as accurate, who has the right to pick and choose?
Doesn’t this mean we might have to accept that Bridget had her 9 o’clock conversation with Abby after vomiting?
I don’t believe it does, but you must see my point.

You see I don’t trust Lizzie, and think it possible that she may have mentioned pillow shams to. Bridget before she went outside to vomit.

Here are some points to consider when pondering a one time or two time visit.

Lizzie said she saw Abby in the guest room.
Lizzie said she couldn’t see inside the guest room because the door was shut.
Morse heard the ww instructions before he left.

As I’ve said previously, for me the odds of Andrew leaving. Bridget getting sick, and Abby going up a second time for a 60 second job, is such a tight coincidence. that I am forced to at least explore the theory of a one time visit.

I’m not trying to prove it so much as explore.
I think the conventional two trip scenario has been widely accepted, and that’s fine, it could be true.