Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I think Alice understood completely what was going on when Lizzie prepared to burn the dress.

She did not tell Lizzie that she would not do that. She told Lizzie that she would not let anyone SEE her do it.

Either Alice knew the dress burning was innocent but could be misconstrued or she had more knowledge about the circumstances around the murders than she wanted to admit. Then she chose the path to protect herself by coming forward.

If her statements to the prosecution were based solely on her conscience, I think straight-arrow Emma whou have forgiven her over time. I think both Emma and Lizzie regarded her as a traitor.

I think anyone who truly believed Lizzie to be innocent would have told her to stop burning the dress immediately. If Lizzie was believed to be innocent, there would be no blood on the dress. If Lizzie's entire wardrobe was free of blood, it would only go to prove her innocence. If Alice had known the dress burning was innocent, but could be misconstrued, she would have told Lizzie to stop immediately.

It might be that the dress burning was a revelation to Alice of Lizzie's guilt. Perhaps she thought Lizzie was innocent up to that point.

There were probably any number of people who regarded Alice as a traitor. It only bears out the idea that many people thought of withholding evidence as the right thing to do.

I don't know when exactly it was donated to the FRHS, but, there is a photo of Alice Russell from 1931 labeled "Lizzie's Turncoat Friend". Someone had posted it on the site in the past and it is no longer there in the archives, but, I did find it in pdf format. According to the accompanying article, Alice believed in Lizzie's innocence until the dress burning incident, words apparently straight from Alice's mouth.

Here is the link: Scroll down the page to the third article for Lizzie's Turncoat Friend

http://lizzieborden.org/pdf%5CSummer2002vol14num2.pdf

Thank you for the link, Susan. So the dress burning was an epiphany for Alice, and her reaction was, more or less, "don't get caught".

Alice's testimony from the trial, page 391:

Q. Will you state what you saw after you returned?
A. I went into the kitchen, and I saw Miss Lizzie at the other end of the stove: I saw
Miss Emma at the sink. Miss Lizzie was at the stove, and she had a skirt in her hand, and
her sister turned and said, "What are you going to do?" and Lizzie said, "I am going to
burn this old thing up; it is covered with paint."
Q. "Covered in paint,"---is that the expression?
A. I don't know whether she said "covered in paint" or "covered with paint".
Q. Do you recall anything else said then?
A. No, sir.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I am quite sure I left the room.
Q. Did you speak to either of them at that time?
A. No, sir, I don't remember that I did. I don't think I did.
Q. Did you come into the room again?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you see then?
A. Miss Lizzie stood up towards the cupboard door,---the cupboard door was open, and
she appeared to be either ripping something down or tearing part of this garment.
Q. What part?
A. I don't know for sure; it was a small part.
Q. A smaller part? Go on and state.
A. I said to her, "I wouldn't let anybody see me do that, Lizzie." She didn't make any
answer. I left the room.
Q. Did she do anything when you said that?
A. She stepped just one step farther back up towards the cupboard door.

Alice left the room for an unspecified time after first encountering Lizzie at the stove with the dress. She returned to the room and advised Lizzie to not be seen burning the dress. She was aware of the intent to burn the dress when she left the room the first time, so after she had a chance to consider the ramifications and change her opinion of Lizzie's innocence to one of guilt, she returned to the room and told Lizzie to not be seen burning the dress. The article in the link Susan provided mentions that Alice came forward with the information as a matter of conscience, but I doubt it. She waited far too long to come forward, and she had told the private detective, Hanscom, of the incident by then (the next day), which put her in jeopardy if she didn't come forward.

Moody tried to address Alice's lag time for the information at the trial.

Trial testimony, Alice Russell, page 393:

Q. Miss Russell, you testified before the inquest, did you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You testified at the preliminary hearing?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you testified once and then again before the Grand Jury?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At either of the three previous times---at the inquest, at the preliminary, or at the first
testimony before the Grand Jury, did you say anything about the burning of this dress?
A. No, sir.
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I do not see how that is at all material. The government is not trying to fortify this witness, I hope.
MR. MOODY. Well, I do not press it. If you don't want it, I don't care to put it in.
MR. ROBINSON. Oh, it is not what I want. You are trying the government's case; I am objecting.
MR. MOODY. I waive the question.
MR. ROBINSON. I think it should be stricken out.
MR. MOODY. I agree that it may be stricken out.

Alice's reluctance to come forward with the dress burning information probably speaks to her loyalty as a friend. Alice was convinced of Lizzie's guilt, but still withheld the information for a time. The important point is that one of Lizzie's closest friends, one who was willing to withhold important information for Lizzie's benefit, and knowing whatever else she might know but not disclose about the case, changed her opinion early on from innocent to guilty.

I don't think it follows naturally, that Alice knew Lizzie was guilty. She seemed to be rather slow on the uptake murder forenoon as well.

She did stay over that night, Sunday, after the dress-burning, not leaving until Monday. But the fact that she did leave the girls Monday sometime after talking to Hanscomb may show she was suspicious of her friend.
But what about Emma. She knew about it too.
But let poor Alice have a fight with her own conscience. Some friend those girls were to Alice.

Why would Alice advise Lizzie to not let anyone see her burn the dress? What does this imply?

I think she was more naive than she is being given credit for. This is an unsophisticated lady. We can't know her from where we stand in the 21st century.
She could be giving a caution because it might make Lizzie seem suspicious..
Emma seemed to feel the same. She was very frightened on Monday around the time Alice told Hanscomb- she admitted to that.

Trial
Emma
Q. Now what was said Monday.
A. Miss Russell came to us in the dining room and said Mr. Hanscomb asked her if all the dresses were there that were there the day of the tragedy, and she told him "Yes," "and of course," she said, "it is a falsehood." No, I am ahead of my story. She came and said she told Mr. Hanscomb a falsehood, and I asked her what there was to tell a falsehood about, and then she said that Mr. Hanscomb had asked her if all the dresses were there that were there the day of the tragedy and she told him "Yes." There was other conversation, but I don't know what it was. That frightened me so thoroughly, I cannot recall it. I know the carriage was waiting for her to go on some errand, and when she came back we had some conversation and it was decided to have
her go and tell Mr. Hanscomb that she had told a falsehood, and to tell him that we told her to do so. She went into the parlor and told him, and in a few minutes she returned from the parlor and said she had told him.

Q. Is that all as far as Miss Russell is concerned?
A. All that I

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recall.

Q. Now at the time when Miss Russell said "It was the worst thing that could be done ---"
A. Oh, yes, sir, she said that Monday morning. When she came into the dining room and said she had told Mr. Hanscomb that she had told him a falsehood, we asked what she told it for, and said "The burning of the dress was the worst thing Lizzie could have done," and my sister said to her "Why didn't you tell me? Why did you let me do it?"

I don't necessarily disagree with you- but I don't speak about this case in absolutes- If I were that sure, I wouldn't be here, you see.

What I'm getting at is Alice's awareness of wrongdoing and her subsequent efforts to more or less play along with it. I suggest she was aware of wrongdoing when she told Lizzie to not be seen burning the dress. Rather than tell Lizzie to not burn, or to stop burning the dress, she tells her to not get caught, which implies that she (Alice) knows that burning the dress is wrong, but she won't say anything about it. Alice went on to tell Hanscom a falsehood about the dresses, knowing full well that Lizzie burned one the previous day, which further involved her in an attempt to keep the dress burning quiet. She later told Hanscom the truth about the dress burning. Alice also withheld the dress burning from evidence until after the grand jury was finished deliberating, but before the verdict.

If we can believe Alice's cousin, from the FRHS article posted by Susan: "Alice told her cousin that she thought Lizzie Borden was innocent of the murders of Mr. & Mrs. Borden until August 7, 1892, when she saw her burn the dress in the kitchen stove." So, at some time during the dress burning on the 7th or the day after pursuant to the conversation with Hanscom on the 8th, Alice formed the opinion that Lizzie was guilty. Her seeming willingness to be part of a cover-up speaks to an early formation of that opinion rather than a later one.

The women became frightened only after they were aware that Hanscom asked about the dresses. Why would they be frightened at that point if they thought the dress burning was an innocent act? He had not yet told them that it was an incriminating act. Furthermore, how could three adult women not realize that burning a dress three days after a murder, with the police searching the house numerous times for evidence, would be an incriminating act? Being naive and unsophisticated doesn't quite address that!

If Alice cautioned Lizzie because it made Lizzie seem suspicious, it still implies knowledge of wrongdoing. It makes more sense for Alice to have told Lizzie to not burn the dress under those circumstances, if she believed Lizzie to be innocent.

Kat, please don't feel that any apology is necessary to disagree with me, it is not. I tend to think in absolutes and I tend to speak my mind (big surprise, huh?). Some people may find that intimidating, but I'm as apt to be wrong as anyone. I guess I'm a bit too clumsy to tiptoe well! We will likely never be absolutely certain about the Borden case without further evidence of some sort. In the meantime, I guess I enjoy separating the probabilities from the possibilities most of all.

Here's what I have thought about what Emma explained about Hanscomb and Alice. Hanscomb came on board very early in the case, and I have not decided when it was that Alice talked to him first about Lizzie's dresses. That might have happened before the dress burning- that is one interpretation. It's not stated when the conversaion occurred. Emma changes the way she tells the story in the middle of telling it- which seems to show she has events out of order and has noticed that. That might just be my interpretation, but I had not the sense of it as being sure Alice told the *falsehood* on Monday.
It may then be asked of me, why did Alice use that term? I have thought that she could mean a falsehood before the fact. That what she told him was true at the time, but that now that Lizzie burned a dress it was now false information and she thought she should make it right- adjust the facts as she told them originally.

I don't think this is *reaching* on my part- just another way to entertain an idea of what Alice may have meant. I've always thought that- but I am not wedded to the idea.

Also, I don't necessarily believe family lore, especially based on dates.

So when did Hanscomb join the case?

Since we can not determine when Alice first told Hanscom that the dresses were all intact, we can't be sure if the falsehood came before or after the fact. She may indeed have been telling the truth at the time, if the conversation took place before Alice knew of the dress burning.

Lets assume for a moment that Alice told Hanscom the dresses were intact before the dress burning and that it was the truth at the time. Wouldn't Alice have additional incentive to prevent the dress burning if that was true? She would already have been sensitized to the question of whether Lizzie's dresses were intact, and by Lizzie burning the dress, Alice would have been put in an awkward position. I think this would have given Alice more reason to tell Lizzie to not burn the dress.

It's an interesting question.
I'm reminded tho of poor Alice switching rooms with Emma and also of Alice finding that *stick* under Andrew Borden's bed. She thought somehow it implicated her. It was upsetting to her. That doesn't make any sense. We don't know what that means either. I'm not sure that Alice, during this trying time, had all her wits about her.

It's an interesting question.
I'm reminded tho of poor Alice switching rooms with Emma and also of Alice finding that *stick* under Andrew Borden's bed. She thought somehow it implicated her. It was upsetting to her. That doesn't make any sense. We don't know what that means either. I'm not sure that Alice, during this trying time, had all her wits about her.

We should check the newspapers to find out when Hanscomb came. He might have been astute enough to ask the girls privately about their clothing early on.

It would be interesting to know when Hanscom arrived, the earlier he asked Lizzie about her dresses, the earlier she would have known it was wrong to burn one of them.

Just some random thoughts about the stick under Andrew's bed, unless Andrew thought he might need a cane, it represents a perceived need for self-defense.

From the standpoint of the authorities, it might address knowledge of impending trouble, depending upon when it was put there. If they found the stick during the early searches, I would think it would seem important enough to make a note of, and the stick taken as evidence. If Alice was the first to find the stick, I wonder how thorough the search was. If the search was not thorough, then the hatchet could have been temporarily hidden right next to the stick! This might have upset Alice.

From Alice's standpoint, it might look as though she thought there was a need for her to protect herself if anyone thought she had put it there. This might also have upset Alice.

I have always wondered about that statement from Alice thinking that the club or stick under the bed somehow implicated her. Especially after it was pooh-poohed in court. But, could it have been a guilty afterthought? How much might have Alice seen or heard that she kept to herself? Was it that she was afraid even at this early point to be seen as an accomplice to Lizzie? Something Lizzie said or did may have swayed Alice's thinking to Lizzie being possibly guilty earlier than the dress burning incident. Alice switched from sleeping in the elder Borden's bedroom Thursday and Friday to sleeping in Emma's room, Saturday and Sunday. Alice found the stick under the bed on Saturday after the funeral whilst combing her hair. She says it is not the reason that she switched rooms, yet she did sleep in Emma's room first on Saturday night and can give no reason for the switch. After the dress burning on Sunday afternoon, Alice stays the night, but, leaves for good on Monday.

Something Lizzie possibly says or does possibly leads Alice to entertain thoughts of Lizzie being guilty of the crime. Alice is possibly afraid of guilt by association with Lizzie at this point when she finds the stick under the bed, shes afraid of being viewed as hiding evidence. Evidence that might implicate her in the crime. Then the dress burning incident, which if that article from the FRHS has any truth to it, tips the scales for Alice into viewing Lizzie as the guilty party and she leaves the house and Lizzie for good. Sunday must have been an excrutiating night for poor Alice, so much going on in her head and possibly always coming out with the same answer that it had to have been Lizzie that did it.

It might have been a slow, steady escalation of horror and suspicion I guess, for Alice.
If we combine all these things, and add the things we cannot know that might have happened just from Alice being around the place all those days ... things she saw or overheard, it does seem possible, that after talking to Hanscomb, she was outa there.
She also had work to do at home tho- a job. Taking that much time off would have set her budget back.

...But why might Alice take Emma's room when it opened into Lizzie's, if she was by then becoming afraid of Lizzie? At least in the elder Borden's room she had privacy and could possibly still be able to lock the door, altho once they broke thru there, it might have only locked (hooked) on Lizzie's side.

Harry's article on Orinton Hanscom, in the June 2004 Hatchet (p31) states that the private detective arrived in Fall River on the Saturday after the murders. Rebello, in his book (p118), implies that Hanscom interviewed the ladies at the murder house on Sunday, with Jennings there.
If the dress burning was done around 9 am Sunday, then the men might possibly have come later in the day.

What time did the dress burning occur?

Yes, that is the way that I see it, a slow but steady session of shock after shock to poor Alice, until she can't take any more. Alice said the first night that she slept in the elder Bordens bedroom that she didn't sleep a wink, I can well imagine. I imagine that it went something like this over time, "O, my God, I staying over in a house of horrors, my friend's parents have been murdered. O, my God, I staying over and sleeping in the same bed as the people that have been murdered! O, my God, I think I may have found the murder weapon under my bed! O, my God, they might think I had a hand in the murders. O, my God, I may be staying in the murder house with the actual murderess, I don't quite know, but, don't feel safe. O, my God, Lizzie burned her dress only days after the murder, I surely think she must have done it!" She must have been just a wreck after that stay.

Do you think it is possible at that early point in time that Alice didn't have a clue how the Bordens were murdered? The day of the murders it took her long enough to realize or come to know that they didn't die of poisoning, intentional or otherwise. Perhaps early on the ladies were spared of all the gory details and they only knew something about the victim's heads being attacked. Alice puts two and two together and comes up with that stick as being a bludgeoning agent that caused both the deaths? The police obviously put some stock in what she said about it because it was taken as evidence early on. Alice possibly didn't know about the hatchet until the following week when she was called upon for the inquest?

I'm trying to recall, what did Alice do for a job at that point in time? Was she taking in sewing, teaching sewing, or was she doing the bookkeeping job? She probably could have taken the sewing with her to work on at the house and the bookkeeping too, but, I'm sure that when Monday rolled around, she was looking for any excuse to get out of there. Didn't Alice spend Sunday at home, instead of going to church as she initially had proposed? She probably needed some down time.

Ah, my thought with Alice taking Emmer's room was because the elder Borden's bedroom had two doors into it and more importantly, Emma and Lizzie most probably took posession of the two keys to that room. They had control over the entrances into that room and there was still one door that connected to Lizzie's room, right close to where Lizzie's bed was. Emma's room had only the one door and with that family's obsession with locking doors, I'm sure there was a key to lock it with. It may even have been in the lock on the inside of the door to Emmer's room which Alice may have noted at some point. Can you see Alice confiding in Emma with some little white lie about not sleeping well in that room and not tipping her hand about her real fears? Whatever she said obviously worked as the two switched rooms.

Sorry, Kat, we crossed in posting. Alice says in her testimony that she came back to the Borden house before noon to witness the dress burning incident.

If Hanscom interviewed the women early Sunday morning, and if Lizzie's dresses were a part of that interview, then Alice may have told the truth about the dresses being intact. If that interview took place, then she, or anyone else, would have known that some importance was put on the dresses remaining intact. If the interview concerning the dresses took place after the dress was burned, probably some time after noon Sunday, then Alice's first response to the question was a falsehood.

Would the interview likely have taken place on a Sunday morning when people may be attending a church service? I doubt that Hanscom and Jennings would have interrupted a noon meal for the interview. It seems most likely the interview would have taken place Sunday afternoon.

I have to do it this way- sorry there is so much to read. It's Alice, in context, at the trial, about where she was before Lizzie burned the dress. It seems she did not leave the house after breakfast, nor before and during the dress burning.

However, Morse was there at breakfast- which Alice provided sometime after 8 am, and we should find out if he was around the house Sunday, or out. I don't know if we've asked that question before.
Also, notice Lizzie doesn't do dishes.

Trial
Alice
390
Q. Do you remember the breakfast on Sunday morning?
A. No, I do not.

Q. Who got the breakfast Sunday morning?
A. I got the breakfast.

Q. After the breakfast had been got and the dishes had been cleared away, did you leave the lower part of the house at all?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. About what time in the morning was it when you returned. Miss Russell?
A. I don't know.

Q. Was it before noon?
A. Yes, sir.

Page 391 / i413

Q.Will you state what you saw after you returned?
A. I went into the kitchen, and I saw Miss Lizzie at the other end of the stove; I saw Miss Emma at the sink. Miss Lizzie was at the stove, and she had a skirt in her hand, and her sister turned and said, "What are you going to do?" and Lizzie said, "I am going to burn this old thing up; it is covered with paint."

Q. "Covered in paint,"---is that the expression?
A. I don't know whether she said "covered in paint" or "covered with paint".

Q. Do you recall anything else said then?
A. No, sir.

Q. What did you do then?
A. I am quite sure I left the room.

Q. Did you speak to either of them at that time?
A. No, sir, I don't remember that I did. I don't think I did.

Q. Did you come into the room again?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you see then?
A. Miss Lizzie stood up towards the cupboard door,---the cupboard door was open, and she appeared to be either ripping something down or tearing part of this garment.

Q. What part?
A. I don't know for sure; it was a small part.

Q. A smaller part? Go on and state.
A. I said to her, "I wouldn't let anybody see me do that, Lizzie." She didn't make any answer. I left the room.

Q. Did she do anything when you said that?
A. She stepped just one step farther back up towards the cupboard door.

Q. Did you notice where the waist of the dress was when she held the skirt in her hands as you first came in?
A. I didn't

Page 392 / i414

know that it was the waist, but I saw a portion of this dress up on the cupboard shelf.

Q. Inside the cupboard?
A. Yes. The door was wide open.

Q. When you came back the second time and she was tearing the smaller part, did you see the skirt?
A. Well, I am not positive; I think I did.

Q. Did you have any more talk with her that day, or did she say anything to you about it?
A. No, sir.

Q. At that time were there any police officers in the house?
A. No, sir.

Q. Were there any officers about the premises?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you know whether there was anyone else in the house except yourself and Miss Emma and Miss Lizzie Borden?
A. I don't think that there was.

Q. When had Bridget left? Do you know whether she had left before the Sunday morning or not?
A. Yes, she had left.

Q. Before that?
A. Before that.

Q. Do you know Mr. Hanscom?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see him at the Borden house on Monday morning, the following day?
A. Yes, sir.

-------------

408
Q. No doubt about that, and any woman knows or ought to know the difference between the two [a Bedford cord fabric or another fabric], doesn't she?
A. I don't know as they do.

Q. Well, you do. Now, you said that you got the breakfast; is that so?
A. Yes, I got the breakfast Sunday morning.

Q. Yes, Sunday morning I am talking about. Did you three sit down together?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Maggie in the house at that time, or Bridget?
A. No, sir.

Q. Were you three the only persons in there at breakfast?
A. No, sir.

Q. Was Mr. Morse?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. That four made the whole?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time, as near as you can recollect, did you have breakfast?
A. I don't know. I think somewhere,---I don't know what time it was.

Q. Well, was it anywhere from eight to ten o'clock or nine o'clock; somewhere along there to the best of your remembrance?
A. It would be purely guess-work for me to tell. I should suppose it was after eight.

Q. And did I understand you to say (I didn't quite hear your answer) that you went out; did you go out of the house after breakfast?
A. No, sir. I went out---no, sir, I didn't

Page 409 / i430

go out of the house.

Q. Did you go out in the kitchen?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And where did you go, if I may ask?
A. I think I went my room or the room that I occupied the night before, and put it in order.

Q. Going up the back stairs or the front?
A. Well, I don't remember; most likely the front stairs. I am sure I went the front stairs.

Q. Did you help in washing the dishes?
A. No, not that morning.

Q. You left that to Miss Lizzie and Miss Emma to do?
A. Miss Emma. I can't say sure about Lizzie.

Q. You don't know whether she participated or not?
A. I don't know for sure.

Q. Now, do I understand that when you came down into the room again, as you came into the room, that you saw this dress which you spoke of, the Bedford cord?
A. May I ask you the question again?

Q. I say was it when you came back from your chamber that you came into the kitchen and saw Miss Lizzie with the Bedford cord dress?
A. I think it was at that time.

Q. At any rate, this was in bright day?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Right in the kitchen?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Policemen in the yard?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And if I get it right, she had the skirt on her arm, something like that?
A. Yes, sir.

Page 410 / i431

Q. And some other part of the dress was over on the mantel or a chair, was it?
A. It was on the cupboard shelf.

Q. Out in the kitchen?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And this conversation with Emma, you may state it again, if you please, so there will be no doubt about it.
A. Emma turned around from the sink and she says "What are you going to do?" and Lizzie says "I am going to burn this old thing up. It is covered with paint."

Q. Did you see any blood on that dress?
A. No, sir.

Q. Not a drop?
A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see any blood on the remaining part of it?
A. No, sir.

Q. Did you see that it was a soiled dress?
A. The edge of it was soiled as she held it up. The edge she held towards me like this (illustrating), and this edge was soiled.

Q. As she stood there holding it you could see the soil of the dress, could you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. I think you say that you did not actually see it put into the stove?
A. No, sir.

Q. Or any part of it?
A. No, sir.

Q. And that is all you know about whether she did or not except what she said she was going to do, and you made your remark. I want to get at that. You made a remark to her?
A. I said, "If I were you I wouldn't let anybody see me do that, Lizzie."

Q. This was on Sunday morning?
A. Yes, sir.

Page 411 / i432

I thinl that there was blood. Noone wanted to look at that.

Alice's movements seem to be: get breakfast, straighten her room, witness Lizzie's intent to burn the dress. Not much time for an interview before the dress burning, and nothing is mentioned about Hanscom's arrival or presence during that time. So, Alice's initial response to Hanscom's question about the dresses was a falsehood. Alice had confronted the situation twice, once to learn of Lizzie's intent and secondly, to advise Lizzie to not be seen doing it. If an interview took place Sunday afternoon, the incident was all the less likely to be overlooked by Alice. I think her original intent was to cover for Lizzie.

Nothing was mentioned about how or when the dress found it's way into the cupboard. It might have been put there while Emma was occupied with the dishes and Alice with straightening her room.

Hanscom had to question Alice Russell about Lizzie's dresses AFTER she had witnessed Lizzie at the stove else how could she have told him a falsehood that all of Lizzie's dresses were still there.

Emma's testimony from the trial, p1545:

"Q. Now what was said Monday.
A. Miss Russell came to us in the dining room and said Mr. Hanscomb asked her if all the dresses were there that were there the day of the tragedy, and she told him "yes," "and of course," she said, "it is a falsehood." No,---I am ahead of my story. She came and said she told Mr. Hanscomb a falsehood, and I asked her what there was to tell a falsehood about, and then she said that Mr. Hanscomb had asked her if all the dresses were there that were there the day of the tragedy and she told him "yes." There was other conversation, but I don't know what it was. That frightened me so thoroughly, I cannot recall it. I know the carriage was waiting for her to go on some errand, and when she came back we had some conversation and it was decided to have her go and tell Mr. Hanscomb that she had told a falsehood, and to tell him that we told her to do so. She went into the parlor and told him, and in a few minutes she returned from the parlor and said she had told him."

The burning of the dress occurred after breakfast on Sunday. Emma at the time was washing the dishes. It wasn't till Monday that Alice said she had spoken to Hanscom and told Lizzie "That was the worst thing ....".

Hanscom arrived in Fall River Saturday evening. He first arrived at the house Sunday morning. From the Fall River Herald, Aug. 8, 1892:

"Event Of Sunday. The event of the day was the arrival at the house of Supt. Hanscom of the Boston Pinkerton agency, who entered with Lawyer Jennings during the forenoon. Hanscom arrived at the Mellen house late Saturday night, and there was a big stir when it became known that he had been hired by the Borden's to look after their interests."

He went to the house 8am Monday morning. In the same article cited above:

"... Several friends of the young ladies called and were received and about 8 o'clock Inspector Hanscom entered. Later he was joined by Lawyer Jennings, and the pair remained in the house for several hours. ...."

I believe it was during this Monday morning visit that Alice was questioned about Lizzie's dresses. Then she told Lizzie and Emma and they sent her back to him to correct her "falsehood".

In an interview Hanscom gave at the Mellen House he states that he interviewed Lizzie and Emma on Sunday. He specifically states he did not interview Morse. No mention of Alice or anyone else.

Could Lizzie have felt that this was a moment where she could have disposed of the dress without anyone seeing this (except Emma, which may show Emma was in on the reason Lizzie was really burning the dress), and then Alice walked in on them? Maybe Emma asked what Lizzie was going to do with the dress in an effort to make the whole thing look innocent, and Lizzie tried to cover herself with the paint story.

Harry @ Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:28 am wrote:Hanscom had to question Alice Russell about Lizzie's dresses AFTER she had witnessed Lizzie at the stove else how could she have told him a falsehood that all of Lizzie's dresses were still there.

Emma's testimony from the trial, p1545:

"Q. Now what was said Monday.
A. Miss Russell came to us in the dining room and said Mr. Hanscomb asked her if all the dresses were there that were there the day of the tragedy, and she told him "yes," "and of course," she said, "it is a falsehood." No,---I am ahead of my story. She came and said she told Mr. Hanscomb a falsehood, and I asked her what there was to tell a falsehood about, and then she said that Mr. Hanscomb had asked her if all the dresses were there that were there the day of the tragedy and she told him "yes." There was other conversation, but I don't know what it was. That frightened me so thoroughly, I cannot recall it. I know the carriage was waiting for her to go on some errand, and when she came back we had some conversation and it was decided to have her go and tell Mr. Hanscomb that she had told a falsehood, and to tell him that we told her to do so. She went into the parlor and told him, and in a few minutes she returned from the parlor and said she had told him."

The burning of the dress occurred after breakfast on Sunday. Emma at the time was washing the dishes. It wasn't till Monday that Alice said she had spoken to Hanscom and told Lizzie "That was the worst thing ....".

Hanscom arrived in Fall River Saturday evening. He first arrived at the house Sunday morning. From the Fall River Herald, Aug. 8, 1892:

"Event Of Sunday. The event of the day was the arrival at the house of Supt. Hanscom of the Boston Pinkerton agency, who entered with Lawyer Jennings during the forenoon. Hanscom arrived at the Mellen house late Saturday night, and there was a big stir when it became known that he had been hired by the Borden's to look after their interests."

He went to the house 8am Monday morning. In the same article cited above:

"... Several friends of the young ladies called and were received and about 8 o'clock Inspector Hanscom entered. Later he was joined by Lawyer Jennings, and the pair remained in the house for several hours. ...."

I believe it was during this Monday morning visit that Alice was questioned about Lizzie's dresses. Then she told Lizzie and Emma and they sent her back to him to correct her "falsehood".

In an interview Hanscom gave at the Mellen House he states that he interviewed Lizzie and Emma on Sunday. He specifically states he did not interview Morse. No mention of Alice or anyone else.

Yes, I agree, how else could it be a falsehood and not simply misinformation? Kat's point was that if Alice told Hanscom about the dresses being intact before the dress burning, it was a falsehood after the fact and the truth at the time it was told. This would have made Alice aware that the dresses were important and given her more reason to PREVENT the dress burning. Ultimately, it makes little difference if she told Hanscom about the dresses before or after the fact, she knew it was wrong to burn the dress, and her advice to Lizzie to not get caught doing something wrong implicates her as someone willing to withhold evidence, up to a point.

The information was not only withheld from authorities by Alice, but also by Emma, Hanscom, Lizzie, and possibly also by Jennings if he accompanied Hanscom on Monday and was present when Hanscom interviewed Alice. Any of them might have come forward with the testimony before the grand jury, or at any other time prior to that.

Angel @ Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:37 am wrote:Could Lizzie have felt that this was a moment where she could have disposed of the dress without anyone seeing this (except Emma, which may show Emma was in on the reason Lizzie was really burning the dress), and then Alice walked in on them? Maybe Emma asked what Lizzie was going to do with the dress in an effort to make the whole thing look innocent, and Lizzie tried to cover herself with the paint story.

If the dress implicated Lizzie in the murders, she had to dispose of it, and fast. Sunday morning may have been the first relatively quiet moment since the murders, and Lizzie may have been aware that she wasn't likely to be completely alone any time soon. The paint on the dress would have been a handy excuse at any time if she was observed burning the dress. Emma testified at the trial that burning the dress was at her suggestion:

Emma, Trial testimony concerning the Bedford cord dress, page 1540:

Q. Now where was that dress, if you know, on Saturday, the day of the search?
A. I saw it hanging in the clothes press over the front entry.
Q. At what time?
A. I don't know exactly; I think about 9 o'clock in the evening.
Q. How came you to see it at that time?
A. I went in to hang up the dress that I had been wearing during the day, and there was no vacant nail, and I searched round to find a nail, and I noticed this dress.
Q. Did you say anything to your sister about that dress in consequence of your not finding a nail to hang your dress on?
A. I did.
Q. What did you say to her?
MR. KNOWLTON. Wait a minute. I pray your Honors' judgment as to that.
That is clearly incompetent.
MASON, C. J. The question may be answered.
Q. What did you say to her?
A. That night?
Q. Yes, about the dress?
A. I said, "You have not destroyed that old dress yet; why don't you?"
Q. Is that all that was said?
A. All that I remember.

Assuming Emma was within earshot of Alice's advise to Lizzie to not be seen burning the dress, Emma would also have reason to ask "why not?" at that point, if her testimony is accurate.

Though it may not be a big thing, I did find an interesting bit between Emma and Marianna Holme's memories of what dress Lizzie was wearing Friday and Saturday after the murders. It sounds to me like since Lizzie knew that she had to dispose of the Bedford cord dress, she had to have an alternative dress. An alternative that she wanted people to believe that she wore in the mornings like she used to wear the Bedford cord. The Bengaline silk dress becomes Lizzie's new morning dress and the pink and white stripe wrapper becomes her afternoon at home dress, this is my take from what I have read; see what you think.

Trial Volume 2, page 1542, Emma on the stand, they are asking her whether it was possible for Lizzie to wear the Bedford cord dress under another dress:

Q. Did she have it on under the pink wrapper when she had that on?
A. I don't think she could possibly have had it on under it.

Q. Was she lying on the sofa with the pink wrapper on?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would the dress show if she had it on under that?
A. It must have.

Q. Were you with her Friday and Saturday when she it on?
A. Almost constantly.

For some reason, when I first read that passage, I thought they meant that Lizzie had on the Bedford cord dress. I take it to mean that Lizzie wore the pink and white stripe wrapper on Friday and Saturday.

Heres Marianna Holmes version:

Trial volume 2, page 1506:

Q. What dress did Miss Lizzie have on when you arrived there?
A. A wrapper.

Q. Color?
A. A stripe---pink stripe and white stripe with what I would call a sheeny figure in it.

Q. How many days were you there, Mrs. Holmes, after the murder?
A. I went there, as I told you, on the 4th of August about noon. I was there parts of every day until after Miss Lizzie's arrest.

Q. Did you at anytime see this dress there? (Showing dark blue dress with small light figure. Susan-The Bengaline silk dress to clarify)
A. Miss Lizzie had that dress on Friday morning, and I think also on Saturday morning for a short time.

Even though the Bengaline silk dress is a cheaper dress as it was made of a silk and linen weave, silk to me still says dressy dress. Something you would wear out or to receive guests in. I personally will wear a silk blouse for dressy occasions. Lizzie's mourning dress that she wore to the funeral was black silk with a net overlay. To me, logically, the pink and white stripe cotton wrapper should have become Lizzie's morning dress and the Bengaline for afternoon wear, in case of visitors stopping in to pay respects. To me it sounds as though she has to make that dress believable as her morning dress and continues to wear a silk weave dress as a house dress.

It would be interesting to know what the rest of Lizzie's wardrobe consisted of. Susan is right, if the Bedford cord was Lizzie's usual morning dress and was worn Aug. 4th, she would have to establish something else as a replacement for it. Above all, it had to be a blue dress. I seem to remember most of Lizzie's dresses were blue. I wonder if she had any blue cotton dresses or if all the rest of her blue dresses were of the fancier type. Maybe the Bengaline was the least fancy blue dress in the closet once the Bedford cord was removed.

Yooper @ Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:44 am wrote:It would be interesting to know what the rest of Lizzie's wardrobe consisted of. Susan is right, if the Bedford cord was Lizzie's usual morning dress and was worn Aug. 4th, she would have to establish something else as a replacement for it. Above all, it had to be a blue dress. I seem to remember most of Lizzie's dresses were blue. I wonder if she had any blue cotton dresses or if all the rest of her blue dresses were of the fancier type. Maybe the Bengaline was the least fancy blue dress in the closet once the Bedford cord was removed.

Maybe it was the closest in color and style to the bedford cord? Or at least in Lizzie's opinion.

sorry double post.