Lizzie Borden Society Forum

If you could somehow get the definitive answer to just one question about the case that has never been answered, what would it be? ( Well besides who did it, that is an obvious first choice ).

The one question that I would love to have answered:

Was there blood on the dress that Lizzie burned in the stove?

The best candidate I can think of is: What exactly was that paper (or wad of papers) which Doctor Bowen was permitted to burn in the kitchen stove?

I guess my question would be "was there ever really a note?"

I would want to know if she had ever had sex?

I would want to know WHAT was it that Bridget WAS going to spill the beans about, but changed her mind...?


Tracy...

Me too

What route did the hatchet take before, during and after.

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve @ Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:34 pm wrote:What route did the hatchet take before, during and after.

-1bigsteve (o:

I'm with Kat.

As they say, was the fruit picked from the vine?

theebmonique @ Mon May 09, 2005 6:05 pm wrote:I would want to know WHAT was it that Bridget WAS going to spill the beans about, but changed her mind...?


Tracy...

I have wondered about this too. I have a strong feeling that there were a lot more confrontations between Abby and Lizzie than what we may have thought. Remember the scene in the movie where Lizzie is coming after Abby and Andrew had to break it up? I think Bridget knew the intenisty of the hatred and felt there was enough hatred there to push Lizzie into murder. Perhaps there was a huge cat fight just before the murders and that is what drove Emma off onto that "vacation."

Bridget may have wanted to talk but thought better of it. She may have gotten the message from Lizzie: "I can always buy another hatchet." Something to think about I guess.

-1bigsteve (o:

nbcatlover @ Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:34 pm wrote:I'm with Kat.

As they say, was the fruit picked from the vine?

Do I detect a couple of naughty minds here? I mean really ladies.

-1bigsteve (o:

I love your new AVATAR, Cynthia!

1bigsteve @ Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:43 pm wrote: I have wondered about this too. I have a strong feeling that there were a lot more confrontations between Abby and Lizzie than what we may have thought. Remember the scene in the movie where Lizzie is coming after Abby and Andrew had to break it up? I think Bridget knew the intenisty of the hatred and felt there was enough hatred there to push Lizzie into murder. Perhaps there was a huge cat fight just before the murders and that is what drove Emma off onto that "vacation."


-1bigsteve (o:

What I have found interesting, and have been thinking more and more about lately, is the half house Andrew bought and put in Abby's name. Everyone always just assumes the affair was more or less over with 5 years before whenever Andrew deeded his father's house to the girls. But they were still not taking meals with their parent's, they were still not speaking, and Lizzie still did not call her mother. They let the house and kept the rents, but who collected these rents? Who did repairs? Who dealt with the tenants? I cannot picture the girls performing any of the duties usually assigned to a landlord at that time. Not if they could dig in their heels and make Andrew do it. I believe that Andrew dealt with all these matters even after it belonged to the girls. So in essence nothing had changed except who kept the rent. That could've beome a point of contention with Andrew. What else is interesting is he bought the property back from them less than three weeks prior to the murders on July 18, 1892. Right around the same time Emma left for Fairhaven. In Rebello it states she left somewhere during the third week of July, which would put it near that date wouldn't it?

What if Andrew did not buy the house back as a gesture of good will? What if he bought it back at MORE than what he sold it to them for to get them off his back? He was doing all the necessary business, maybe they were balking at taking any responsibilites other than keeping the rent money, and yet were unwilling to let him have it back. Until he offered them more money that is. After all, he hadn't bought back Abby's house, it was still in her name. Which was the original bone of contention that started all that mess.

Apparently it was only May to October, 1887, that Andrew finally broke down and gave the girls the Ferry Street property.
I can't imagine what homelife was like during those 5 months.
Andrew did have a man-of-business, Charles Cook.
My guess is that he collected rents and filtered tenenant's concerns and reno demands to either Andrew or the girls.

Andrew paid the girls $5,000 July 15, and on the 21st the girls left town- with Lizzie's birthday falling in between on the 19th.

According to Rebello page 554 +:

May 2

Abby D. Borden purchased from Jane E. Gray for $1,500 one "undivided half" of a lot and house on the west side of Fourth Street in Fall River bought by the late Oliver Gray in 1857. On that same day, Jane E. Gray discharged a mortgage to the Fall River Savings bank. ( Book 128: 271)


October 1

Andrew J. Borden sold to Emma and Lizzie for $1.00+ the Ferry Street lot in Fall River, 120+ square rods and the house on it. (Book 130:524) This was the old Borden home on Ferry Street in Fall River once owned by Andrew J. Borden's father.


page 556:

1892- July 18

Emma and Lizzie deeded 120.12 square rods to Andrew J. Borden on the south side of Ferry Street on which is located the old Borden home. ( Book 5: 219) Andrew J. Borden had deeded the property to Emma and Lizzie on October 1, 1887. ( Book 130:524)

Then a little farther down on page 556:

1893 - August 10

Emma and Lizzie sold for " $1.00 and other good and valuable considerations, property to Sarah B. Whitehead of Fall River and Priscilla S. Fish of Hartford, Connecticut...all our rights, title of which Abbie D. Borden , wife of Andrew J. Borden, late of said Fall River, died seized and possessed wherever said real estate ..." et al. ( Book 16:259) This was the half interest in the property on Fourth Street in Fall River that Andrew and Abby Borden purchased in 1887.

1896- July 13

Emma and Lizzie mortgage from Pauline Robinovitz et al for land and a house , 120.12 square rods on the south side of Ferry Street on which was located the old Borden home in Fall River. ( Book 40:159)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1900 - June 9

Emma and Lizzie discharge deed to Pauline Robinovitz et al which was the old Borden home on Ferry Street.
(Book 72:125)



I have always thought that Andrew collected his rents in person. He seems to have handled alot of his own business dealings. I mean he still took eggs downstreet to sell from a basket.

I'm sorry I'm going to be so vague, but I don't own the book and am too pressed for time to go uptown to the library.

I believe it was the Arthur Philip's (did I get the name right?) History of Fall River that had some pictures of tenements from that area. One of the photos' location was very near the Ferry Street Homestead. It was an extremely poor and sometimes dangerous area at the time. I'm not sure that Lizzie or Emma had a Jane Addams--Hull House mentality.

Rebello (pp. 30-31) has the sad story of old Mr. Hurd, who starved to death in the attic appartment of Ferry Street. I've always suspected that the Lacombes in Lizzie's will had something to do with Clara Lacombe, another tenent. They might have been the kids she put through school.

Andrew may not have like his daughters traversing through this area and perhaps fraternizing with the tenents.

Lastly, I throw out the idea that the Ferry St. transfer back to Andrew was a business dealing. There was a lot going on with the steamships and the railroads. Andrew had transferred title of some property in Swansea to the railroad for a depot, which reverted back to him if they did not use it for same.

The waterfront near Ferry Street, I believe, was being developed for more ship access at the time of the murders. I tried about 2 years ago to do more research about this but couldn't really get any substantial data. I do know a lot changed, especially with the Newport Line, when New Haven Railroad took over main service in the area in 1893. Lizzie always said that she worried about her father's business dealings. Perhaps she was just not forthright enough about which business dealings. Note: Jerome Borden took over Andrew's place on the Investment Committee at the bank before Andrew was even buried.

nbcatlover @ Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:54 pm wrote:I'm sorry I'm going to be so vague, but I don't own the book and am too pressed for time to go uptown to the library.

I believe it was the Arthur Philip's (did I get the name right?) History of Fall River that had some pictures of tenements from that area. One of the photos' location was very near the Ferry Street Homestead. It was an extremely poor and sometimes dangerous area at the time. I'm not sure that Lizzie or Emma had a Jane Addams--Hull House mentality.

Rebello (pp. 30-31) has the sad story of old Mr. Hurd, who starved to death in the attic appartment of Ferry Street. I've always suspected that the Lacombes in Lizzie's will had something to do with Clara Lacombe, another tenent. They might have been the kids she put through school.

Andrew may not have like his daughters traversing through this area and perhaps fraternizing with the tenents.

Lastly, I throw out the idea that the Ferry St. transfer back to Andrew was a business dealing. There was a lot going on with the steamships and the railroads. Andrew had transferred title of some property in Swansea to the railroad for a depot, which reverted back to him if they did not use it for same.

The waterfront near Ferry Street, I believe, was being developed for more ship access at the time of the murders. I tried about 2 years ago to do more research about this but couldn't really get any substantial data. I do know a lot changed, especially with the Newport Line, when New Haven Railroad took over main service in the area in 1893. Lizzie always said that she worried about her father's business dealings. Perhaps she was just not forthright enough about which business dealings. Note: Jerome Borden took over Andrew's place on the Investment Committee at the bank before Andrew was even buried.

Had it really changed that much from the time they lived there themselves? And if he bought the property back with the intention of selling, why was there no record of it, or mention of it? Why was the house sold to Mrs. Robinovitz instead? As for Jerome Borden taking over Andrew's place on the Committee before he was even buried, I don't see that as any more suspicious than the Vice President taking over when the President dies. Business didn't die with Andrew Borden, the show had to go on.

Allen--the area had changed drastically from the Anglo-Irish community to an area with many immigrants from all over the world.

Andrew died in 1892 and many of his business dealings seem to have died with him. Mrs. Robinovitz did not buy 14 Ferry Street until 1896. Emma and Lizzie held a mortgage interest in the property until 1900.

I suspect Andrew had bigger visions than just collecting rents and selling eggs. I believe he wanted to make his mark in the Fall River area before he died.

Fall River was a city with access to Boston, had the Old Colony and Newport Scenic Railroad ties, and The Old Fall River Line. It was a transportation hub, and the surrounding communities were enjoying fame as summer resorts.

Andrew had had previous dealings with the Fall River, Warren & Providence RR in 1874 regarding a depot.

http://ccbit.cs.umass.edu/lizzie/images ... 4_265.html

As a supposition, if you wanted to develop a local feeder (rail) line to Swansea, what better way to disguise the importance of your property holding than by putting it in your daughters' names and letting them collect the rents for the favor. There are records of other very small rail connections being extremely lucrative during this period in history. The area also ties into the business development on Main Street (A. J. Borden Building) and John Morse had the stable and livery connections to develop simultaneously.

Look at the location of 14 Ferry Street on map below in regard to access to Mt. Hope Bay and the existing rail lines. The property is strategically located. Location, Location, Location is very important, and slum areas are usually easily demolished by the rich and powerfully connected.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?se ... code=02721

There are other reasons I suspect a transportation angle in Andrew's business dealings, but I do not have the crucial proof I need. Just something that makes a loopy kind of sense since railroad negotiations were underway in 1892 with a lease on the Newport line given to the New Haven RR in 1893.

http://www.ocnrr.com/history1.htm

Those are interesting observations.
Thanks for the info, and the Land Transactions timeline from Rebello.

I just want to add, that the back of the book does not in every way match the text of the rest of the book.
Consequently, I usually take my info from the text.
Note on page 28, where "Owners of the Ferry Street Home" names and dates are listed, there shows:
July 15, 1892 as the date of the change of ownership of the Ferry Street house.

...Just for anyone's info:
One can compare the back to the front of the book- which I've done, and did decide the front references were what I would use, so anyone in future will know this about me.

I'm very interested in your interpretations of the residents of the area back then, Cynthia.
I also would be interested in the viewpoints of other residents. These are unique perspectives, thank you.

BTW: Ferry Street never became anything big tho, did it?

Hi Kat--I was thinking that it was a long time since I physically explored that area myself. Here's the closest online substitute I could find for information, a yacht sales company at the Borden Light Marina:

http://www.blmys.com/

If you want some interesting perspective, open the Mapquest map and use the Zoom out feature. Click on 2nd button below white (active view) button. Then you will see Ferry Street in relation to Gardner's Neck in Swansea.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?se ... code=02721

The red star is the Ferry Street address. The "pink" point is Brayton Point (electric company) in Somerset. The next strip of land by water is Gardner's Neck. The circle indicating South Swansea is approximately the location of the Borden Farm on Gardner's Neck Road. The road at right angles to Gardner's Neck Road (closest to the word Massachusetts) is Bay Pointe Road where the Anthony Family Farm was located and where David M. Anthony Jr. built his house in 1895 (nice waterfront property).

If you were thinking in terms of developing the Neck for summer folk in Andrew's day, I think this gives you some idea of additional possibilities from the rail line to ferry-access to the Neck.

Someone had previously asked about the location of Touisset before. You can see the Rhode Island portion of the area called Touisset in this map view. I have since found out that if you follow the Massachusetts coastline from current Touisset to the Neck that the entire area was sometimes called by that name.

I am not clear, however, of the physical location of the land for the Rail Depot or Station that Andrew and William Almy sold to the Fall River, Warren & Providence RR in 1874. I admired their Specfic Reserve clause:

Land is to be used for a depot or station by the railroad. If such land is ceased to be used for said purpose, it will revert back to the grantors. Also, the Grantors hold the right to run a water pipe(s) across said land.

I interpret that to mean that they would get the land with the said Depot or Station built on it back if that railroad ceased to use it. That means they could use if for their own purposes or lease/sell it to another railroad.

In any case, it guaranteed to Andrew that the land could be used as a rail depot by someone.

Thanks!
In the zoom-out feature the Ferry Street house looks very close to the wharf/water. However, it was still a ways up the hill from there. Harry had shown us an old map view of the Ferry Street property. Also, Len and Bill took us to where the house once stood and it's now a parking lot. We were there twice in a year and a half. That leads me to surmise that nothing really came of that particular location- else something important might still be there.

The Franklin Street property of Hiram & Lurana after the trial was close to the RR depot, wasn't it?
I think in the other part of the city where they lived prior to the murders was also near a RR depot. Turner Street I think it was?

I know the house wasn't right on the water. I'm looking at the lower end of Ferry Street as a general area. If Andrew was interested in developing a feeder rail line (as a mysterious member of the Morse family did in Excelsior Springs, Mo.), he would be doing it the Fall River way--as part of a larger syndicate. He was also the guiding hand in the investments of his bank.

I don't know how much Andrew's death impacted the future of that area, but the New Haven RR had the local leases of the small RRs by 1893. Local transportation wasn't their interest. They wanted the Boston-Providence-New York lines that are today's Amtrak. The local lines struggled on and really suffered with the advent of the automobile in the 1900s.

http://www.ocnrr.com/history1.htm

I reposted the above link on the Newport line because it did really show on my 9/21 post.

I need Harry to take me around so I can learn more!!!

My question would be directed to Lizzie on May 31, 1927: Was it all worth it?

That's an excellent question!

nbcatlover @ Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:21 pm wrote:I need Harry to take me around so I can learn more!!!

That would be a sure way of getting lost Cynthia. I'm just a raw recruit when it comes to FR.

The map of FR I have in my head is from the late 1800's. No one-way streets, rotarys or road repairs making it a heck of a lot easier to get around.

In reference to the question that was mentioned as to whether or not Lizzie ever had sex, there was a book written on that topic. It's called "Lizzie Didn't Do It". I haven't read it, but I would guess that the title pretty well sums it up.

For my question, I would like to know if Lizzie really was in the Loft of the Barn, eating Pears.

Fargo @ Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:00 am wrote:In reference to the question that was mentioned as to whether or not Lizzie ever had sex, there was a book written on that topic. It's called "Lizzie Didn't Do It". I haven't read it, but I would guess that the title pretty well sums it up.

For my question, I would like to know if Lizzie really was eating Pears in the Loft of the Barn.

Good one Fargo.

For those who haven't read it, the book "Lizzie Didn't Do It" by William Masterton is not about Lizzie's sex life. His theory is that the forensic conclusions are wrong and that Andrew and Abby were killed at the same time, with Andrew being killed first.