Lizzie Borden Society Forum

As per JVM's Inquest testimony, P 99(6) italics/bold mine



A. Well, I went in there, and the first thing, I asked the girl, she was the first person I saw when I got there, I
asked if Mr. Borden was at home, or Andrew, I dont know which. She said he was on the lounge.
Q. Go on.
A. I went in, and he got up. The lounge was on this side of the room; him and Mrs. Borden sat there and chatted. He asked if I had been to dinner. I told him I had not, but was not hungry at all. Mrs. Borden said “we
have just had dinner, a little while ago, it is all warm, I will put it on.” She did, in the dining room. I sat down and
ate, and we went back in the sitting room and chatted again until between three and four. I was going to Swansea.
I came over to Kirby’s stable, hired a horse and buggy and went over to Swansea.


It makes it sound as if A & A were sitting, chatting, side by side on that small sized sofa.

It makes me think about their relationship and whether or not they enjoyed one another's company.

Does anyone interpret this to mean they were not sitting on the same sofa?

ME

If you have such a firm position as to declare it in rude shouting all caps... Please elaborate.

The use of the words "him and Mrs. Borden sat there" would seem to me to indicate they were together.

Although Lizzie had a hard time at the Inquest describing their relationship she eventually testified:

"Q. Did he seem to be affectionate?
A. I think so.
Q. As man and woman who are married ought to be?
A. So far as I have ever had any chance of judging.
Q. They were?
A. Yes."

I think they may have been closer than we imagine.

I do too.

They may have felt like part of a team. There is no mistaking Andrew's regard for her when he bought the half house to ensure Abby's sister had a place to live.

Yes, the purchase of the house is a good clue. Besides being an expensive gift, it would mean that Andrew cared for what was important to Abby.

Very possibly their closeness was one of the things that troubled Emma and Lizzie.

The Bordens seemed to have had a servant for quite a few years so he wasn't just using her for the upkeep of the house.

Anyone know when Andrew first hired a servant? (I'm too lazy tonight to go digging myself. )

When Morse first came, wasn't Andrew lying on the lounge/sofa?
Because he had been sick?

Here is Andrew's crew in 1880.
Since they didn't live there in 1870, and since the 1890 census burned up as you know, 1880 is it from me
Looks like Mary Green.

Audrey @ Wed May 25, 2005 8:58 pm wrote:If you have such a firm position as to declare it in rude shouting all caps... Please elaborate.

I 'm not being rude you are. My brother forgot to take the caps off when he emailed, SO SUE ME

Harry @ Wed May 25, 2005 10:46 pm wrote:Yes, the purchase of the house is a good clue. Besides being an expensive gift, it would mean that Andrew cared for what was important to Abby.

Very possibly their closeness was one of the things that troubled Emma and Lizzie.

The Bordens seemed to have had a servant for quite a few years so he wasn't just using her for the upkeep of the house.

Anyone know when Andrew first hired a servant? (I'm too lazy tonight to go digging myself. )

they had one for quite a while since the first "Maggie" had been very old at the funeral. Quoting Spielring

Such excuses...

And you still fail to elaborate on your opinion.

This is a bit off topic, but it seems like a good place for a reminder/refresher.
Liz,

Audrey is absolutely correct about the 'shouting'. Plus, I might suggest using the 'preview' feature. It helps...a lot.

Tracy...

rules.php#3

From the forum rules:

Sources
Since this is a forum populated by both novices and experts, we ask that you attempt, when possible, to cite your sources when stating a little-known fact about the case. If you cannot find your source, please indicate as much as you can regarding where and when you heard or read about the information. In this way, we will all learn from each other, which is what this community is all about. Do not expect others to look stuff up for you. Most of the trial documents are available for free download on my website at LizzieAndrewbBrden.com for just this reason. I wanted you to be able to read documents related to the case and not feel left out by those who quote them on this board.

Shouting
DO NOT SHOUT! Writing messages using all upper case letters is called shouting. It is considered rude and lazy. Please put in the extra effort to find and use the Shift key.
Back to top

Me Too
Do not just add Me Too and re-post a message. If you have relevant additional material or clarification, or even simply questions to ask, then it is appropriate to add to a posting. Me Too is normally considered irrelevant and a waste of time and space.
Back to top

Just let it go, Audrey just let it go



Not in the mood

Too tired remind myself in the morning

Thanks

Liz, you are burning bridges with people in this forum who could be very helpful to you and your goals. There are people here who are older and wiser and it would serve you well to sit back and listen...take notes...you WILL learn something. Believe it or not.


Tracy...

*edit*

So did you read more about the question and find that Morse says Andrew was reclining when he came? Or am I thinking only of Bowen?
If he was reclining, Abby could not be sitting with him, maybe?

"How did you find Mr. Borden's health that day?
He was sick, indisposed, laying on the lounge.
. . .
You left him so when you went away?
Well, he was sitting up before I went away, sitting there talking." (Morse Prelim.)

"I went in, and he got up. The lounge was on this side of the room; him and Mrs. Borden sat there and chatted." (Morse, Inquest.)

Maybe initially, Andrew was lying on the lounge and Abby was sitting across the room. But perhaps when Morse came, Andrew sat up and Abby came across to join him on the lounge so as to allow Morse to sit comfortably across from them while they conversed?

Thank you!
Audrey, do you have the preliminary hearing?

Maybe initially, Andrew was lying on the lounge and Abby was sitting across the room. But perhaps when Morse came, Andrew sat up and Abby came across to join him on the lounge so as to allow Morse to sit comfortably across from them while they conversed?

Yes thank you Diana. This sounds very likely. I think if Abby hadn't been sitting across the room then she was at least standing by Andrew, tending to him when Morse came in. She then sat down beside Andrew as he sat up.

Audrey, I am glad you started this thread. I like the idea of going over the kind of relationship Andrew and Abby had with each other.

Very possibly their closeness was one of the things that troubled Emma and Lizzie.

I think you are right Harry.


Tracy...

Yes, I have the Inquest...

"he got up" can merely mean he stood to greet his guest.

I think it is open for speculation?

Very possibly their closeness was one of the things that troubled Emma and Lizzie.

I think you are right Harry.



I second this, that would be an excellent motive for murder

Audrey @ Thu May 26, 2005 6:46 am wrote:Yes, I have the Inquest...

"he got up" can merely mean he stood to greet his guest.

I think it is open for speculation?

I don't know about "getting up" meaning he stood. I don't think he stood for Bowen.
I picture Andrew kind of lying on the sofa at least the first part of the day, and again after dinner. He could sit up and Abby sit down when Morse came. I can see that. I also don't know about Abby tending him there, per Tracy.

I asked if you had the preliminary hearing because that's where Diana came up with the quote. And that's the document I am most familiar with (having read it about 5 x- I think Susan has read it about 5 x also) and where obscure fill-in-the-cracks info comes from.

I agree this is a very good topic. Crucial, even.

Didn't Dr. Bowen make some comment that the way Andrew was found llaying on the lounge was the way he normally would lay down on it? If so and his head was higher up on the arm, wouldn't there have been room down at the other end of the lounge for Abby to squeeze in and sit there while Andrew was lying down?

Yes, I have the preliminary testimony as well..

I was reviewing the inquest when I came across that little nugget...

Do we tend to assign more credibillity to any one version of testimony? I ask b/c I don't know!

I would like to think of A&A sharing some closeness and some intimacy.

It is puzzling that Abby never had a child of her own. She would have still been in the middle of her child bearing years at the time of her marriage and men can make babies until they die....

What you said about Abby never having a child of her own. Yes Audrey that is puzzling but I think Emma and Lizzie would not have allowed it. Don't You?

:littleangel:

Well.. Unless they planned to sit vigil beside the marriage bed there wasn't a lot they could have done to prevent it.

Very true there was not good birth control back then.

There is no particular emphasis on any single document.
But the preliminary hearing had more lax rules of evidence and so we kind of find out more- as a compliment to the more strict proceedings.
Some put more emphasis on the witness statements and inquest because they were closer in time to the event.
This is true and is meaningful, definetly- but the prelim. kind of augments everything.
I also ask because not many have it.

Wouldn't that have been weird if Abby and Andrew had had a child!

There really is no way to know if Abby was able to have children.. But I still think it is odd that she didn't.

I think that they would not want to make more trouble with Emma and Lizzie.

Audrey @ Thu May 26, 2005 11:20 pm wrote:There really is no way to know if Abby was able to have children.. But I still think it is odd that she didn't.

Since the main goal of a woman back then was getting married, and then having children, it is odd they never conceived a child. This is what a woman was groomed for all her life, it was her sole purpose. Maybe she really couldn't have children. Or it could be due to the fact that she was already 37 years old at the time of the marriage.

Or...maybe the 'problem' could have been Andrew's...if in fact a 'problem' was why Andrew and Abby never conceived a child. Maybe old A and A would have enjoyed some of our modern day Viagra ?


Tracy...

Perhaps Andrew associated Sarah's illness and death with Lizzie's birth, and wanted to spare Abby a similar ordeal?

Liz Crouthers @ Thu May 26, 2005 8:04 pm wrote:Very true there was not good birth control back then.

Actually, by the time Andrew and Abby were married, the Victorians pretty much had what we have today for birth control. Outside of the pill and sterilization, they had condoms and sponges, caps, etc. Heres a link to a site with info on birth control in the Victorian era.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~f2003.hi ... ntrol.html

This has to be my favorite method listed, maybe it was a staple in the Borden home:

1856 pamphlet Science of Reproduction and Reproductive Control - douching with tannin, iodine, strychnine, prussic acid, or powdered opium dissolved in water to destroy "animalcules.

Maybe that is what Lizzie wanted prussic acid for.

I can't see Lizzie needing it though

stuartwsa @ Fri May 27, 2005 7:50 pm wrote:Perhaps Andrew associated Sarah's illness and death with Lizzie's birth, and wanted to spare Abby a similar ordeal?

Lizzie might have contributed to the uterus congestion but not the spinal disease

I am 38 and I could still have a child if I wanted to.
Andrew was single for a bit over 2 years. Sarah was sickly. Abby was a healthy woman....

Abby was a lovely looking woman before she moved in with the Bordens.....



I hope she had some passion...

Well I think she's not very pretty, but that's just my thought

of course you don't.

What's that supposed to mean?

Abby's sister Priscilla never had a child either, but of course their 1/2 sister Sarah did.

Abby in autopsy had a fibroid tumor on her *womb* but other than that the report said she was *normal.*

I don't know if people realize this but Andrew and his Sarah were married 18 years, but Andrew and his Abby were married for 27 years!

Interesting fact Kat...

Andrew did wait a respectable amount of time before he remarried...

Most people agree that someone who was widowed is more likely to remary if they were happy as they miss the relationship.


With those girls skulking about and sitting in the guest room in the evenings, A & A were left to their own devices a great deal of the time.

I wonder how they passed their leisure time?

Does anyone know if they had cards in the house, or other diversions? (besides books)

It looks like he waited 2 years and 3 months. That's longer than I thought. Thanks Audrey.

Of course on the other hand, if Abby couldn't or wouldn't perform her wifely duties with Andrew, this could lead back to the unpleasant incest theories that have been put forth. Ugh!

I would like to think that Abby went into that marriage thinking that she had a new family and two step daughters, especially little Lizzie to love.

I do not believe Andrew married her for a housekeeper/babysitter. As discussed before, he had a servant at the time.

Whatever the case-- He got the better end of the bargain.

Audrey @ Fri May 27, 2005 9:16 pm wrote:I am 38 and I could still have a child if I wanted to.

Yes, you could have children at this age. But how many women actually do continue to have children at this stage in their lives? It could be that Andrew felt he had accomplished the goal of having a family with his first wife, Sarah. That duty being completed in his eyes, he married Abby simply for the companionship she provided to him as a wife and life partner.

stuartwsa @ Fri May 27, 2005 7:50 pm wrote:Perhaps Andrew associated Sarah's illness and death with Lizzie's birth, and wanted to spare Abby a similar ordeal?

Sorry for the second post, but I had another thought. Maybe this is partially correct. Maybe Andrew did not want to run the risk of losing another wife. Back then having a child could still be pretty dangerous. It was still quite common for a woman to possibly die during child birth. Figuring in Abby's age, because they did look at age differently back then, he might not have wanted to risk it. By looking at age differently I mean they had different ideas about when a woman was "past her prime". It was believed if you weren't married by the time you were eighteen you were doomed to be a spinister all your life.

Allen @ Sat May 28, 2005 12:18 pm wrote:

Audrey @ Fri May 27, 2005 9:16 pm wrote:I am 38 and I could still have a child if I wanted to.

Yes, you could have children at this age. But how many women actually do continue to have children at this stage in their lives? It could be that Andrew felt he had accomplished the goal of having a family with his first wife, Sarah. That duty being completed in his eyes, he married Abby simply for the companionship she provided to him as a wife and life partner.

Lord knows you are right.. I would prefer almost anything to being pregant at this time in my life-- Heck-- When I found out I was pregnant the last time I was in my 30's and wasn't thrilled at the beginning of it. When I found out there was 3 I cried for a week..

But-- Think of it this way-- and ladies chime in..

The fact that Abby didn't have any children already at 37 makes me wonder if she wanted one with Andrew...

Hmm...that's a thought. Maybe she was thinking..."Another one like Lizzie ???"


Tracy...