Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Much was made of Lizzie's remark that Abby was not her mother but her stepmother. Of course we don't know of the tone of voice in which her statement was made but there is another incident in the trial where a witness made a similar remark.

Pretty Martha Chagnon testified (page 1327) when questioned:

"Q. Now, was anybody present there at that time besides yourself?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was it?
A. My step-mother."

From what little we know of the Chagnons there was no animosity between Mrs. Chagnon and the daughter. If I remember correctly they were playing the piano the evening before the murder.

Personally I always thought I would have responded in the same way as Lizzie, assuming the questioner wanted the truth.

I quite agree with you, Harry. If I had been Lizzie, I would have been especially careful to specify the exact relationship when talking to a policeman. We all know the kinds of trouble that can ensue if the police get the wrong idea about something! Unfortunately, in this case they got the wrong idea (or maybe the right one, depending on one's idea of right and wrong) anyway. At the trial, Fleet testified that Lizzie said, "She is not my mother, sir; she is my stepmother; my mother died when I was a child." Of course, that's probably not an exact quote, because ten months had passed since Lizzie had uttered the words; however, if she used the word "sir," it seems unlikely to me that her tone was especially disrespectful. Of course, she could have said "sir" in a sarcastic manner, I suppose, implying that she was Fleet's better. That certainly wouldn't have been wise under the circumstances!

I agree with both of you Lizzie should have said it that way, better not lie to a cop

I do not think Lizzie cared over much about lying to a policeman or not... I think when it came right down to it-- Abby WAS her stepmother and she didn't care for her-- so she was plain in naming her as a step and not a real mother.

Audrey @ Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:07 pm wrote:I do not think Lizzie cared over much about lying to a policeman or not... I think when it came right down to it-- Abby WAS her stepmother and she didn't care for her-- so she was plain in naming her as a step and not a real mother.

Yes, I agree with this. I do not think Lizzie thought much about whether or not to tell the police Abby was her step mother. I think it was a reflex thing. Just like saying she was a "dreadful old thing".

I think that that statement, whether replied snottily or pleasantly still betrays Lizzie's frame of mind on Abby. Outside of the mothering Lizzie received from Emma or went to Emma for, Abby was still "Mother" to Lizzie for many years. To me, Lizzie is distancing herself from Abby, "she is not important to me, she is only my stepmother." I think perhaps if Lizzie had stated it differently (who knows, she may have actually) she wouldn't have gotten Fleet's back up.

Mrs. Gifford, the cloakmaker at the trial, 1169:
Q. Can you tell any nearer what part of the spring it was you had the conversation?
A. I think it was in March.

Q. Will you state what that talk was?

MR. ROBINSON. Now I object to that, your Honors, on the ground that it is too remote, too long prior to the tragedy of August 4th.

MASON, C. J. She may answer.

MR. ROBINSON. I do not know whether that is a subject which is properly within the scope of an exception, but if it is, I ask for an exception.

Q. Now Mrs. Gifford, will you state the talk, what you said and what she said?
A. I was speaking to her of a garment I had made for Mrs. Borden, and instead of saying "Mrs. Borden" I said "Mother" and she says, "don't say that to me, for she is a mean, good for nothing thing." I said, "oh Lizzie, you don't mean that?" And she said, "yes, I don't have much to do with her; I stay in my room most of the time." And I said, "you come down to your meals, don't you?" And she said, "yes, but we don't eat with them if we can help it." And that is all that was said.

--Here is an example of someone casually using the word "Mother" and possiblyt getting the true Lizzie-explanation of the word and how offensive it seemed to be to her. Robinson was trying pretty hard to keep it out.

I think we should *collect* the things people said Lizzie said about Abby.