Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Greetings fellow Bordenites! This is my first post on this site, so kindly bear with me if my question seems redundant to so many of you. I realize that Volume 1 containing the Inquest testimony of both Bridget and Lizzie has never been found. Thanks to the perseverance of Stefani and others, we now have access to Lizzie's Inquest testimony. Can anyone give me the date/dates during which Bridget testified at the Inquest? In Lincoln's, "A Private Disgrace", she gives the following information: "She (Bridget) was called as first witness and examined from early morning until four in the afternoon… On the final day she was recalled for the better part of the morning and until three, an hour and a half longer than Lizzie’s longest questioning.” Pg. 168. As usual, Lincoln does not cite her source for this info and as so many of Lincoln's "facts" are incorrect, I hesitate to accept this as well. Any help you can give me on this question would be greatly appreciated - and please, cite the source. :) Thank you!

Hi Laura, welcome to the forum!

The inquest was held over a three day period, Aug. 9, 10 and 11. Bridget's testimony was on the 9th and I understand she was called back for some additional questions on the 11th.

This is from the New Bedford Evening Standard of August 10, 1892, covering events of the 9th:

"The Inquest Begun.

At 9:30 o'clock a.m. yesterday Bridget Sullivan was notified that her presence was required at police headquarters and she went to the Central Station under escort of Officer Dougherty. Awaiting her presence were District Attorney Knowlton, State Officer Seaver, Marshal Hilliard and Medical Examiner Dolan, and soon after they were joined by Mayor Coughlin."

Of course we don't know, but I don't think there was anything major in Bridget's inquest testimony that differed substantially from her Preliminary and Trial testimony. There are several references to differences when she was questioned at those events. If my memory serves me right I think one had to do with whether she saw Lizzie crying on the morning of the 4th.

Laura @ Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:27 pm wrote:Greetings fellow Bordenites! This is my first post on this site, so kindly bear with me if my question seems redundant to so many of you. I realize that Volume 1 containing the Inquest testimony of both Bridget and Lizzie has never been found. Thanks to the perseverance of Stefani and others, we now have access to Lizzie's Inquest testimony. Can anyone give me the date/dates during which Bridget testified at the Inquest? In Lincoln's, "A Private Disgrace", she gives the following information: "She (Bridget) was called as first witness and examined from early morning until four in the afternoon… On the final day she was recalled for the better part of the morning and until three, an hour and a half longer than Lizzie’s longest questioning.” Pg. 168. As usual, Lincoln does not cite her source for this info and as so many of Lincoln's "facts" are incorrect, I hesitate to accept this as well. Any help you can give me on this question would be greatly appreciated - and please, cite the source. :) Thank you!

"Thanks to the perseverance of Stefani and others, we now have access to Lizzie's Inquest testimony. " What a great start for an urban legend! LOL! Actually Lizzie's inquest testimony was published in the New Bedford Evening Journal in it's entirty but only after the Preliminary Hearing (into which it was read). Lizzies complete Inquest Testimony was (and I believe still is) available through the Fall River Historical Society, been published in many books (selectively edited usually), and is available on this website. Bridget's Inquest Testimony went the same way as (taken from somewhere on this board) "your socks go in the dryer." The Knowlton Papers includes correspondence were Lizzie's defense requested it of the Attorney General who in turn requested it be provided by Knowlton, but Knowlton didn't have it. Curious and baffling. It's not supposed to differ much from her court testimonies but I'd still like to read it someday. That would indeed be a "rare" collectible.

You are absolutely correct, Laura. Bridget did testify that Lizzie was crying, and then at the Trial she denied it - most vehemently. It's unclear if, when questioned on this point at the Trial, her exact testimony was being read back to her or if the attorney was just being an attorney. ;)

MISS ANNIE M. WHITE, Recalled.

Q. (By Mr. Robinson) You were sworn on a former day, Miss White?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You found it is true that you were the Court stenographer of this County?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you attend the inquest at Fall River in this case that is now pending?
A. I did.
Q. And you there took the testimony as given by the different witnesses.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You were present when Bridget Sullivan testified?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And took her testimony?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I am permitted to show you the printed copy so that you need not trouble yourself about your notes. Mr. Knowlton kindly consents to that. I will refer to page 19. I want particularly to ascertain whether Bridget testified that Miss Lizzie was crying at the time she stood at the screen door? I ask you to read what is marked between the pencil lines. The questions were put by Mr. Knowlton.
A. (Witness reading):
"Q. When she hollered, she said what?
A. She says, 'Maggie, come down!' I knew of course something was the matter by the holler she put on her. I says, 'What is the matter?'
Q. What was said then?
A. She says, 'come down quick. Father is dead.' She was leaning against the screen door.
Q. Was the screen door open then?
A. I don't know, I could not say. She was leaning against the inside door that locks, the large door.
Q. Not the screen door but the regular door?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did she seem?
A. She seemed to be excited more than I ever saw her.
Q. Was she crying?
A. Yes, she was crying."

(Source: trial, 1593)

It hardly seems likely that Knowlton would stand by and allow Robinson to 'just be an attorney' at this particular juncture in the proceedings.

Thanks Diana for the source. I knew it was in there somewhere. The Alzheimer's hasn't completely deleted my memory.

Ooooh yes! Thank you so much Diana! I had completely forgotten that was in there. And isn't it fun citing from the actual transcription and seeing all the typos and everything? It lends itself to that added ambience of the times.

Burt and his assistants did a terrific, highly coordinated relay with this for which I understand he was paid well.


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/b ... Tp1593.jpg


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/b ... TTp594.jpg

Thank you again! :)

"Thanks to the perseverance of Stefani and others, we now have access to Lizzie's Inquest testimony. " What a great start for an urban legend! LOL!

Great start for an urban legend ??? I don't get it...is this not true ? I mean I know it was originally from the NBES, but Stefani and her crew have made it easily accessible to nearly anyone who wanted it, and her source was clearly cited...so why the urban legend part ?? What am I missing ?


Tracy...

Thank you all for the prompt and EXTREMELY helpful responses! And, Harry, thank you for including your source. :) As I'm sure everyone is aware, the order of the testimony given can be as important as the testimony itself.

Per my remark complimenting Stefani - I was referring to the LBQ article, "Will The Real Inquest Testimony Please Stand Up", or a title similar to that. (We are all liable to little lapses of memory, now and then). Not to mention, of course, the accessibility of all the documents on the web site!

Actually, there are at least three instances where Bridget's trial testimony is challenged; Lizzie's crying, whether Lizzie and Emma did or did not "take their meals" with the family, (Trial, Volume 1, Pg. 265) and Lizzie's relationship with Abby, (Trial, Volume 1, Pgs. 258-259). If this was the most "damaging" testimony that Bridget gave against Lizzie at the Inquest, it wasn't that bad. :)

Rhetorical question: If indeed these three instances of Bridget's change in testimony was the worst that Bridget had done, why the strange disappearance of Volume 1 of the Inquest? I don't think any serious Bordenite regards the missing Volume as anything other than "suspicious". :)

Laura @ Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:27 pm wrote:Greetings fellow Bordenites! This is my first post on this site, so kindly bear with me if my question seems redundant to so many of you. I realize that Volume 1 containing the Inquest testimony of both Bridget and Lizzie has never been found. Thanks to the perseverance of Stefani and others, we now have access to Lizzie's Inquest testimony. Can anyone give me the date/dates during which Bridget testified at the Inquest? In Lincoln's, "A Private Disgrace", she gives the following information: "She (Bridget) was called as first witness and examined from early morning until four in the afternoon… On the final day she was recalled for the better part of the morning and until three, an hour and a half longer than Lizzie’s longest questioning.” Pg. 168. As usual, Lincoln does not cite her source for this info and as so many of Lincoln's "facts" are incorrect, I hesitate to accept this as well. Any help you can give me on this question would be greatly appreciated - and please, cite the source. :) Thank you!

I had worked this up a while ago for my records. Here is an excerpt:

> Inquest
> Tuesday, August 9, 1892:
>
> 9:30
> Doherty gets Bridget and brings to Second District Court in F.R. Police
> Station (Evening Standard, Wed., Aug. 10, pg.2, & Witness Statements, 13)
> “Awaiting her presence were District Attorney Knowlton, State Officer Seaver, Marshal Hilliard and Medical Examiner Dolan, and soon after they were joined by Mayor Coughlin.”
>
> 10:00
> “Inquest opened at 10 a.m.” (E.S 2.)
> Marshal called it “inquiry”.
> Bridget first to be examined behind closed doors.
>
> 12:30 p.m.
> “Hearing adjourned for dinner”. (E.S. 3., & Porter, 55)

The judge liked his dinner on time (noon), but stayed in the room with Bridget testifying to get as much done as they could with her until 12:30.

Then, after lunch, Lizzie came around 2 p.m. Not long after that they had to recess because the *court* left to go meet up with Pillsbury. (E.S. pg.2).

Apparently they resumed around 3:40 with Lizzie and stayed until 6. (E.S.2)

Bridget got to finally leave around 5 p.m. that first day tho it seems she was left cooling her heels after she first was questioned. (E.S. 2 and Porter, 56)

On the last day, Thursday, Bridget was brought back to court:
> 3:45 p.m.
> (D/H)* “Went for Fred Hart”. (Witness Statements, 15)
> Bridget came. (Porter, 61)
>
Sometime after 5 and probaly before 6 p.m. Bridget left, "...and escorted by a police officer walked slowly down the street.” (Porter, 65) .

Of course Lizzie on Thursday was kept back and not released again until her trial acquittal.

*D/H = Doherty/Harrington

"

Actually Lizzie's inquest testimony was published in the New Bedford Evening Journal:

--becky

Actually it was the New Bedford Evening Standard.

"Per my remark complimenting Stefani - I was referring to the LBQ article, "Will The Real Inquest Testimony Please Stand Up", or a title similar to that. (We are all liable to little lapses of memory, now and then). Not to mention, of course, the accessibility of all the documents on the web site!"

--Laura

Yes you are right, Laura, to cite that LBQ article because it explains everything one needs to know about how Lizzie's inquest testimony was compared and authenticated and then accepted as a proper source by consensus of the current experts, regardless of the claims of any others. The website's version is the premier accepted one and great lengths were gone to to assure that it is.
Thank you for your comments.

Here it is from LABVML.

Intro from the web page:
Inquest - Lizzie Borden (pdf 312kb)
This document is comprised of the testimony of Lizzie Andrew Borden presented at the Inquest into the deaths of Mr. and Mrs. Andrew J. Borden, held August 9-11, 1892. Because Volume I of the Inquest is currently lost to us, Lizzie Borden’s inquest testimony is reproduced here as an exact transcription of The Evening Standard, New Bedford, MA, June 12, 1893, Monday Evening Edition, p. 8 plus 2 unnumbered supplement pages. (The bolding in this introduction is mine)

The web page:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm




Tracy...

theebmonique @ Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:09 pm wrote:Here it is from LABVML.

Intro from the web page:
Inquest - Lizzie Borden (pdf 312kb)
This document is comprised of the testimony of Lizzie Andrew Borden presented at the Inquest into the deaths of Mr. and Mrs. Andrew J. Borden, held August 9-11, 1892. Because Volume I of the Inquest is currently lost to us, Lizzie Borden’s inquest testimony is reproduced here as an exact transcription of The Evening Standard, New Bedford, MA, June 12, 1893, Monday Evening Edition, p. 8 plus 2 unnumbered supplement pages. (The bolding in this introduction is mine)

The web page:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm




Tracy...

I think that the point trying to be made about the inquest testimony not being really lost is, it was available in the New Bedford Evening Standard to anyone who wanted to search it out. So there was a copy of the testimony which has been available all this time. It has been made available to the public in other sources as well, such as in books, by the Fall River Historical Society, and the Bed & Breakfast was selling copies of it the last time I was there. I opted to buy a copy of The Witness Statements instead, because I already had a copy of the inquest testimony in the Sourcebook. Stefani and Kat have provided everyone with a free copy that is readily accessible to anyone with an internet connection. So you have the inquest at your fingertips.

It's also good to know which copy is most assuredly the working document, simply because there are so many versions out there in books by authors., including The Sourcebook. They were all different and The Standard's was considered closest to true and then had to be compared.

Omygosh, comparing documents word by word and line by line is mind-boggling!

Forgive me fellow Bordenites! I have not yet deciphered the complicated and confusing "ins and outs" of posting and replying to messages on this board. No doubt it is due to the 2 1/2 grains of morphine recently prescribed by my family physician, dear Dr. B. (I have a faint memory of submitting a "report", but that may have been an hallucination caused by my medication). If a "report" (whatever that may be), has been submitted, please just ignore it as you would my Inquest testimony.

Couldn't resist the "fun and games"; now back to serious matters. Kat,
thank you for your info regarding Bridget's testimony dates. I have not yet read Porter's "Fall River Tragedy". How reliable a source do you regard him? He was a reporter for the Fall River Globe and I tend to view reporters of that era with more than a dash of skepticism. (However, the excerpt did pertain to specific times and dates which were verified by other sources - good researching on your part!).

I do have a question regarding the entry in the Witness Statements by Doherty concerning his "escorting" of Bridget to Court on Tuesday, August 9th, pg. 13: "Went for Bridget, and escorted her to Court....Then returned TO THE HOUSE WITH BRIDGET, AND REMAINED UNTIL RELIEVED BY THE NIGHT. (sic) OFFICER." I believe that Bridget testified at the Preliminary Hearing that her last visit to the Borden house was on Monday evening and that she did not stay overnight; most of her nights immediately following the murders were spent at the Miller/Bowen house. Doherty's entry seems to indicate that he returned Bridget to the BORDEN house after her testimony on Tuesday, (what other house would have a "night officer" on guard?). Any thoughts?

I kept hoping someone else would answer this query. I find it very interesting -- but I know I'm missing something about Bridget's whereabouts after the murders.

First of all, I wondered if Doherty's statement that he "returned to the house with Bridget" after the inquest could simply have meant that they returned to Second Street together and as the Bowen/Miller house was just diagonally across the street from 92 -- he saw Bridget to the Bowen's door and then went over to go 'on watch' at the Borden house.

But then I began trying to think how we know where Bridget was that week after the murders. I didn't find anything in her Preliminary Hearing testimony (and that's not to say it isn't in there -- I just didn't find it) but there is this exchange at the trial:

"Q. Did you remain at the house after the homicide any length of time?
A. I stayed there. I went out Thursday night and slept out in Mrs. Miller's girl's house, and Friday night I slept in the house.
Q. You mean Mrs. Miller's house with the girl?
A. With the servant. I slept with her Thursday night.
Q. On Thursday night?
A. Yes, sir, and I came back Friday morning, stayed there all through the time and did the work and Friday night I went out and came back and slept in the house.
Q. In the Borden house?
A. Yes, sir, and Saturday night I left for good as I thought, and came back Monday and Mr. Miller said I should not leave the house until he came and took me out.
Q. You did not stay there Saturday night?
A. No, sir,---or Sunday night.
Q. You were not there Sunday morning?
A. No, sir.
Q. Were you there Sunday at all for any part of the day?
A. No, sir, I came there Monday morning."

And that's all I found about her sleeping arrangements. So she was at Miller/Bowen's on Thursday night, back at Borden's on Friday night, and at Miller/Bowen's on Saturday and Sunday.

But it is not clear to me where she stayed on Monday night -- and now Doherty's statement raises the question as to whether she was staying at the Borden house on Tuesday night.

I'm sure we've covered this before -- and there are other sources for this information. Anyone?

This is from the Fall River Herald of the 9th(?) regarding where Bridget slept Tuesday night:

"At 5 o'clock Miss Sullivan left the police station in company with Officer Doherty and passed down Court square. She was dressed in a green gown with hat to match and appeared to be nervous and excited. Nobody knew her, however, and she attracted no attention whatever. She went to the Borden house for a bundle and, still accompanied by Officer Doherty, walked to 95 Division street, where her cousin, Patrick Harrington, lives, and where she passed the night."

And this is from Demille's Dance of Death, page 57:

"Bridget had been under surveillance with the rest of the family since the morning of the killings, but after the Tuesday's questioning had been released unconditionally without bail. A policeman escorted her to the Borden house, where she made a small bundle of her clothes; then she went with his further protection to the house of her cousin, Patrick Harrington, a mile away at 95 Division Street, whence she walked daily, unattended, to the courthouse."


I believe she stayed there until she went to the New Beford House of Correction with Keeper Hunt and family. Just exactly when that occurred I don't know.

Thanks, Harry. I knew you'd have something!

Then that is an odd wording by Doherty: "returned to the house with Bridget and remained until relieved by the night officer". (W.S., 13)

If the newspaper report is correct, I guess Doherty just left out out the part where he took Bridget on to her cousin's -- although it would have involved a two-mile walk (according to what deMille says) if he had to come back to the Borden's to wait for the night officer.

Unless by "the house" he means Patrick Harrington's and the police were keeping watch on Bridget at the Division Street house?

I notice you've questioned the date on the Fall River Herald. I, too, wonder how they could report events that happened on the evening of the 9th in an edition that came out on the 9th? Unless maybe it's an edition published on the 10th with an item datelined the 9th?

diana @ Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:36 pm wrote:I notice you've questioned the date on the Fall River Herald. I, too, wonder how they could report events that happened on the evening of the 9th in an edition that came out on the 9th? Unless maybe it's an edition published on the 10th with an item datelined the 9th?

I really don't know the date of the paper. The article is in the Sourcebook, page 41, which unfortunately leaves off the date. I agree that's it's most likely the 10th.

I've never been able to find when she went to New Bedford. Or even the reason why she went there. Part of it I suspect was to do with keeping her away from Lizzie's lawyers.

Then there's the Trickey hearing before the Grand Jury where they wanted to indict Trickey for his attempting to get Bridget out of the country. When this alleged incident occurred I don't know but maybe that also had something to do with safekeeping Bridget at New Bedford.

It doesn't say Bridget stayed at Miller/Bowen's Saturday and Sunday does it?
We did have this question earlier and we did try to figure out where Bridget stayed. It's a hard question. Anything from your end, Laura?

Kat Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:01 am:

It doesn't say Bridget stayed at Miller/Bowen's Saturday and Sunday does it?

You're right, Kat if, by "it", you mean Bridget's testimony. I leapt to a conclusion there. She doesn't say where she stayed on Saturday and Sunday (or Monday and Tuesday for that matter).

I did feel we'd gone over this before but I couldn't come up with the thread in my search through the archives. It is a hard question. The more I go over Bridget's testimony on this point the less I get out of it.

Well, it was recently- but you know how we drift around on a topic..
I would like the questioners help here too.