Lizzie Borden Society Forum

This is Lizzie's inquest testimony. I will put here what she said about her whereabouts on Wednesday. Therefore it will be selections out of context- yet does show , I think, that she was out on Wednesday, during the day.
If she was out on Wednesday, then she probably was seen by Mr. Bence, after all. Feel free to go to the source and re-read the intervening comments. Also check Bridget as to what she says about when she saw Lizzie on Wenesday.

I start at page 55, where Lizzie is asked a question about Wednesday night.

Q. Where were you Wednesday evening?
A. I spent the evening with Miss Russell.
Q. As near as you can remember, when did you return?
A. About nine o'clock at night.
Q. The family had then retired?
A. I don't know whether they had or not. I went right to my room; I don't remember.
55 (12)
Q. You did not look to see?
A. No sir.
Q. Which door did you come in at?
A. The front door.
Q. Did you lock it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. For the night?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And went right up stairs to your room?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When was it that you heard the voice of Mr. Morse?
A. I heard him down there about supper time---no, it was earlier than that. I heard him down there somewhere about three o'clock, I think. I was in my room Wednesday, not feeling well, all day.
Q. Did you eat supper at home Wednesday night?
A. I was at home; I did not eat any supper, because I did not feel able to eat supper; I had been sick.
Q. You did not come down to supper?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you hear him eating supper?
A. No sir. I did not know whether he was there or not.
Q. You heard him in the afternoon?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you hear him go away?
A. I did not.
Q. You did not go down to see him?
A. No sir.
Q. Was you in bed?
A. No sir, I was on the lounge.
Q. Why did you not go down?
A. I did not care to go down, and I was not feeling well, and kept my room all day.
Q. You felt better in the evening?
A. Not very much better. I thought I would go out, and see if the air would make me feel any better.
Q. When you came back at nine o'clock, you did not look in to see if the family were up?
A. No sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I very rarely do when I come in.
Q. You go right to your room?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you have a night key?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How did you know it was right to lock the front door?
A. That was always my business.
........
57
Q. I ask you once more how it happened that, knowing Mr. Morse was at your house, you did not step in and greet him before you retired?
A. I have no reason, except that I was not feeling well Wednesday, and so did not come down.
Q. No, you were down. When you came in from out.
A. Do you mean Wednesday night?
Q. Yes.
A. Because I hardly ever do go in. I generally went right up to my room, and I did that night.

--It sounds like she is thinking she is being asked here about during the day. And her answer implies she took a nap during the day. It sounds like she is trying to give an alibi about being in her room all day yet explaining why she didn't come down before she retired to say hello to her uncle. She would know she needed a daytime alibi. No one else would know that.
........

58
Q. Was it your habit when you were in your room to keep your door shut?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That time, that Wednesday afternoon?
A. My door was open part of the time, and part of the time I tried to get a nap and their voices annoyed me, and I closed it. I kept it open in summer more or less, and closed in winter.
Q. Then, unless for some special reason, you kept your door open in the summer?
A. Yes sir, if it was a warm day. If it was a cool day, I should have closed it.

--Lizzie's door was supposedly closed - she would need to keep it closed especially if she was out. Now Morse did not arrive until 1:30 and stayed until about 3:30 (Inq-98,99). Lizzie was supposedly seen at Bence's place of employment sometime between 10- 11:30 a.m. (Inq-160).
Bridget says that Lizzie came down for breakfast Wednesday (tho she said Lizzie said she had been sick and altho we know Lizzie has bragged that she doesn't eat with the elder Bordens). Bridget says Lizzie was down for dinner and down for supper. She says basically that she did not know where Lizzie was between breakfast and dinner. That is between say 7:30 and noon.
Now, Bridget says Lizzie was down to supper (say, 6 p.m.) but Lizzie says she wasn't down.
Also, Bridget said Lizzie was early for dinner! Or at the least, down ready for it before it was ready. (noonish).

I would think that the young lady who does not eat with the Bordens took especial care to be seen around the house downstairs in the dining room at least, around 7-7:30 for a meal and around 12 noon for a meal and then not seen in between times.
Then to confuse things, Lizzie claims first that she heard Morse first around suppertime, which is 6-ish, but he was in Swansea supposedly at supper with Vinnicum.

Bridget at the preliminary hearing, pg. 53:
Q. Did they all come down to breakfast? [Wednesday]
A. Yes Sir.

Q. What did you have for breakfast?
A. Pork steak, and johnny cakes and coffee.

Q. This was Wednesday morning, after the sickness?
A. Yes Sir.
...
Q. Were they all there to dinner?
A. Yes Sir.
...
Q. Where they all there to supper.
A. Mrs. Borden, Miss Lizzie and Mr. Borden.

Q. Emma was away?
A. Yes Sir.
......
55
Q. Lizzie stayed in her room all that forenoon, did not she?
A. I suppose so; I did not see her until she came to dinner.

Q. You knew she was up stairs. They were all sick and ailing that day?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. She did not go out at all that day, did she, so far as you know?
A. Miss Lizzie? I did not see her.

Q. So far as you know she did not go out?
A. I could not say whether she went out or not.

Q. That Wednesday morning they came down and had all been sick during the night?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. They had breakfast, and they looked pretty badly, or rather Mr. and Mrs. Borden did?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. And Lizzie complained?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. They ate a little breakfast, and Lizzie went back up stairs to her room?
A. I suppose so. She went out of my sight, I do not know where she went.
........

Bridget at the trial (Sorry no page numbers)

Q. On the day before, on Wednesday, did you see Miss Lizzie Borden at any time during the day?
A. Yes sir, she was down to her breakfast and down to her dinner.

Q. Did you see her between those times?
A. I don't remember. I know she was down before the dinner was put on the table Wednesday.

The rest of Lizzie's alibi for Wednesday is provided by Morse telling us what Abby told him about where Lizzie was (sick in her room) and Mrs. Dr. Bowen is also an alibi through Abby (of all people) that Abby told her Lizzie had not gone out all day. Lizzie has been alibied by a dead woman.

Prelimin
Mrs. Dr. Bowen
478
Q. Were you in the house Wednesday at all?
A. I was there Wednesday night soon after six o'clock.
Q. Did you see Lizzie at all Wednesday?
A. I saw her go down the street just before I went in there.
Q. You saw Lizzie go down the street just before you went in there, and that was sometime after six o'clock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have any talk with Mrs. Borden about their being sick?
A. I did, I asked her how they were feeling. She said she was feeling better. Mr. Borden said he was not feeling very well. I says "I suppose Lizzie is better, for I saw her going out." Mrs. Borden says "yes, she has not been out all day, but she has gone now to see Alice Russell."
Q. That was after you had seen Lizzie go down street yourself?
A. Yes Sir, which was soon after I had eaten my supper; we have supper at six o'clock.

The Bence testimony seems pretty solid.
If Lizzie was trying to poision with arsenic or another common poision, it would have been found by autopsy.
If Lizzie knew that Morse was coming, perhaps the elder Borden's sickness led her to think of poisioning, and she tried to buy prussic acid to kill Morse off as a potential witness or just as someone in the way.
She'd have to be a complete looney to consider this, but it's about the only thing that makes sense.
Say things are set up by her for the next day and Morse shows up. I see no evidence that anyone knew he was coming, but Lizzie may have known. I realize that she tried to buy the poision before he showed up.
If Morse was hanging around the house the morning of the murders they wouldn't have happened.

***Q. When was it that you heard the voice of Mr. Morse?
A. I heard him down there about supper time---no, it was earlier than that. I heard him down there somewhere about three o'clock, I think. I was in my room Wednesday, not feeling well, all day. ***

what i notice is that when she corrects herself as to hearing him earlier around three o'clock, she is indicating the approx. time morse leaves. i'm speculating it is significant to her when he leaves? as if then she is free to come down, and eventually go to russell? and you'll notice that this pattern of morse leaving and lizzie coming down is similar as we generally tend to picture it. the avoidance factor. -- an observation on the lizzie/morse movements on wednesday/thursday.

you show lizzie's wednesday morning 10:30 window of opportunity for the pharmacy. before morse arrived in the first place. did lizzie know he was coming?

Good stuff, Kat. I was wondering if Wednesday that Andrew may have been a witness to Lizzie going out that morning, wasn't he lying on the sofa in the sitting room that day or did he go out? When Dr. Bowen came over in the morning, Andrew was on the sofa, but, then there is this testimony from him in the Preliminary that is odd:

pg. 408

Q. Out of doors, or in?
A. I do not remember as I did. I know my wife said she was going up the street, or going down street towards night, that was Miss Lizzie.
Q. You did not see her during the day at all?
A. No Sir. I remember that, because my wife accounted for Mr. Borden being out, and Lizzie being out, and I suppose they were all right.
Q. That is the last time that you know of that you saw Mr. or Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not call upon them afterwards?
A. No Sir.
Q. That call was voluntary?

Yet in Morse's Preliminary testimony, he has Andrew lying and sitting on the sofa in the sitting room after dinner (lunch), so was he there all day or most of the day?

pg. 237

Q. How did you find Mr. Borden’s health that day?
A. He was sick, indisposed, laying on the lounge.
Q. That is when you got there?
A. That is when I got there.
Q. You left him so when you went away?
A. Well, he was sitting up before I went away, sitting there talking.
Q. How did he appear to be?
A. He appeared to be tolerably comfortable at that time.


So, if Andrew was indisposed on that sofa most of the day, is it possible that he may have heard Lizzie come in from her poisonous errand and perhaps not have mentioned it to Abby or Morse?

That's a good question about Andrew.
Bence says Lizzie was there between 10 and 11:30 a.m.
That's quite a leeway. In fact it's the same amount of 90 minutes time between kills on Thursday- odd coincidence.
Also, Lizzie couldn't know Bence would not recall the exact time but she has always acted as if she just was never there- period. (Which was smart).

Anyway, Dr. Bowen saw Andrew outside I think in the morning which was part of his account of him Wednesday, and knew of or saw Lizzie leaving to go to Alice's Wednesday evening. The way Mrs. Dr. Bowen puts it it sounds like she was watching for Lizzie to leave before she went over. I've always thought that but I'm not sure why. Maybe it's a private interpretation?

You remind me then of another sighting of Lizzie Wednesday morning which we should add and that is Dr. Bowen saw her going upstairs- hurrying upstairs, when he came to see sick Andrew about 9 a.m. So we have a sighting of Lizzie at breakfast around 7-7:30 and then before 9 a.m. by Bowen. Maybe she waited until not only Bowen left her house but left the neighborhood on his rounds before she scooted down to the pharmacy? She would know he drives around and would recognize her.
I don't think Andrew went out off his property Wednesday.

Inquest
Dr. Bowen
I went over after breakfast. I think Bridget let me in, I am very sure it was the front door. I says “Mr. Borden, what is the matter?” He looked at me and wanted to know if anybody had sent for me. I told him no, Mrs. Borden was over, I thought I would just come over and see. He seemed well enough then. He said he felt a little heavy, and did not feel just right, but said he did not think he needed any medicine. I did not urge him at all, of course, and I went home. I did not think much about it. I saw Mr. Borden out two or three hours afterwards. When I went in, I saw Lizzie run up stairs. Mrs. Borden I did not see, because I had seen her before.
Q. Did you see Lizzie that morning?
A. She was just going up stairs as I went in the front door; I thought it was her, I am not quite sure.
Q. It was somebody you thought was Lizzie?
A. Yes Sir, somebody I supposed was Lizzie, I did not see her face.
Q. And did not talk to her?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not see them again to speak to them before they were killed?
A. No, I did not see any of them to speak to them, I dont think, I am very certain I did not.
Q. Where did you afterwards see Mr. Borden, did you see him Thursday?
A. I dont remember of seeing him Thursday. I might possibly. I saw him Wednesday, walking along between the side door and gate. Lizzie I saw walking up the street, and I concluded they were all right, all of them.
Q. You dont recollect seeing Mr. Borden out on the street Thursday at all?
A. I dont recollect it.
Q. Did you see Mrs. Borden on Thursday?
A. No, I did not see her Thursday. I dont remember.
Q. Did you see Lizzie on Thursday before you were called in?
A. I dont think I did. I dont remember seeing any of them. I started off probably at nine o’clock.
Q. You go out on your travels at nine o’clock, or thereabouts?
A. I intend to.

117 (24)

Q. Get back when, or no habit about it?
A. I intend to be around probably once an hour, if I can.

But Bridget didn't see Lizzie. But Andrew may have? How does Andrew seeing her go or return, impact the case?

Yes you're right Eugene! She did come down after Morse left, around suppertime. That again is the pattern.

I thought Bridget said Lizzie was also there for TEA on Wednesday but I can't find it. Maybe the tea she was at was Tuesday? (Evening- probably before bedtime).

john @ Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:01 am wrote:The Bence testimony seems pretty solid.
If Lizzie was trying to poision with arsenic or another common poision, it would have been found by autopsy.
If Lizzie knew that Morse was coming, perhaps the elder Borden's sickness led her to think of poisioning, and she tried to buy prussic acid to kill Morse off as a potential witness or just as someone in the way.
She'd have to be a complete looney to consider this, but it's about the only thing that makes sense.
Say things are set up by her for the next day and Morse shows up. I see no evidence that anyone knew he was coming, but Lizzie may have known. I realize that she tried to buy the poision before he showed up.
If Morse was hanging around the house the morning of the murders they wouldn't have happened.

It's possible she went out to buy prussic acid for a contingency- and not for the murder of the Bordens.
Yes, if she gets mail it's possible she knew Morse was coming.
He came and ate and left Wednesday and got up and left Thursday. It's like when Lizzie sent people away as soon as they came to aid her Thursday after the murder of Andrew was discovered. Morse came and used the place as a launching pad to go to Swansea, returning late and was out at the crucial times again on Thursday.
Why would Morse eat there if Abby thought she'd been poisoned?

Kat @ Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:59 pm wrote:
It's possible she went out to buy prussic acid for a contingency- and not for the murder of the Bordens.
Yes, if she gets mail it's possible she knew Morse was coming.
He came and ate and left Wednesday and got up and left Thursday. It's like when Lizzie sent people away as soon as they came to aid her Thursday after the murder of Andrew was discovered. Morse came and used the place as a launching pad to go to Swansea, returning late and was out at the crucial times again on Thursday.
Why would Morse eat there if Abby thought she'd been poisoned?

I'm not sure what kind of contingency she would have been buying this type of poison for, other than using it to poison Abby and Andrew. At this time arsenic and other poisons could be bought over the counter without even a second thought. But one couldn't buy prussic acid that easily,which is why she was refused. I think that says something about the lethality of prussic acid aka cyanide. Arsenic and other poisons could be used to slowly poison someone, while prussic acid even in minor doses could be lethal. I think she was looking for something that would get the job done quickly, and without any doubt as to the outcome. There is, and never was, any evidence that prussic acid could be used to clean moths out of a seal skin cape. Any so called "evidence" was brought out by the defence, and it was in their best interest to do so, so that took some real "lawyering" to get that in there. My idea of "lawyering" is twisting the truth enough to make it stick.

So, if there has never been any evidence that prussic acid could be used to clean a seal skin cape...I wonder where Lizzie got the idea ?


Tracy...

I've read it in places that a theory was that she could be preparing for suicide if things went badly awry.
I never thought someone as self-absorbed as Lizzie would ever be a candidate for self-destruction. But that is an example of a contingency and has been published so there are adherents out there.

theebmonique @ Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:22 am wrote:So, if there has never been any evidence that prussic acid could be used to clean a seal skin cape...I wonder where Lizzie got the idea ?


Tracy...

My guess offhand would be the same place she got the idea she was eating pears in the barn while Andrew was being murdered.

Trial testimony Professor Wood page 1019+:

Q. What is the nature of prussic acid?
A. It is a poisonous acid: gaseous. It consists of a gas, and that gas is soluble in water.

Q. In reference, I mean now, to it's poisonous effects?
A. It is one of the most deadly poisons we know.

Q. And how instantaneous or otherwise is it?
A. Death is caused anywhere from a few seconds to a couple of minutes.

Q. And what quantity of prussic acid is sufficient to cause the death of a human being?
A. Any solution of prussic acid which contains one grain of acid-- any solution which contains one grain of acid is a fatal dose. That is, it is less than a teaspoonful of the solution which is ordinarily used in drug stores, which is two percent solution.

Q. And what is the solution that is used in drugs stores used for, if you know?
A. For medicine.

Q. Alone or in prescriptions?
A.Prescriptions.

------------------------------------
Trial testimony Eli Bence 1240+:

MR. MOODY . I perhaps first ought to state what the testimony is that we offer. We offer to show, in addition to what Prof. Wood testified to the other day with respect to prussic acid, that it is not an article in commercial use, that it is an article which is not sold except upon the prescription of a physician, and in prescriptions, as a part, a minute part, of a prescription; that this witness during his experience as a drug clerk, up to the 3rd of August, 1892, never had a call for prussic acid; that is it not used for the purpose of cleaning capes, seal skin capes, or capes of any other sort, and has no adaptability to such use.

We now offer to show that upon the 3rd day of August, sometime in the forenoon, the time of which is not material, the prisoner came to this shop in which this man was employed and asked for ten cents worth of prussic acid, stating that she wished it for the purpose of cleaning capes, either seal skin capes, or capes, I am not quite sure which, and that she failed to procure the poison for which she asked.Perhaps I ought to state it with some accuracy.

" This party came in there, and inquired if I kept prussic acid. I was standing out there, I walked in ahead. She asked me if we kept prussic acid. I informed her that we did. She asked if she could buy ten cents worth of me. I informed her we did not sell prussic acid unless by a physicians prescription. She then said that she had bought this several times, I think; I think she said several times before. I says 'Well, my good lady, it is something we don't sell unless by a prescription from a doctor, as it is a very dangerous thing to handle.' I understand her to she wanted it to put on the edge of a seal skin cape, if I remember rightly."
-------------------------------------------------
page 1242:

MR ROBINSON. And we perhaps may anticipate, but I believe it may be fair to ask whether there is any evidence of any sale to this defendent?

MR KNOWLTON. No, sir.

MR ROBINSON. In any other place?

MR KNOWLTON. No, sir. It would be fair to say we have evidence to show
some attempt to purchase prussic acid in another place, with the same negative results.

MR ROBINSON. You propose to bring evidence upon attempts, with no results?

MR KNOWLTON. Yes, sir.
----------------------------------------------------
Trial testimony Charles H. Lawton page 1277:

Q. What is your business Mr. Lawton?
A. A druggist.

Q.And do you carry on the drug business?
A. Together with my brother, yes, sir.

Q. How long have you carried on the drug business?
A. Oh, 20 years.

Q. And where is your store?
A. We have two stores; one, corner of Purchase and Union streets, and the other corner of Union and Second streets.

Q. In New Bedford?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. I suppose Purchase street and Union street are perhaps the principal business streets of this city?
A. Supposed to be, yes, sir.

Q. And you carry on the business at retail or wholesale or both?
A. Both.

Q. How large a retail business do you carry on?
A. Well, I don't know as I could tell exactly. We calculate to carry on the heaviest of any one in the city.

Q. The heaviest retail of anyone in the city?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And before you engaged in the business for yourselves or yourself, Mr. Lawton, were you also engaged in it in anybody's employ?
A. I have always been in those stores. I was a clerk for E. Thornton.

Q. You were a retail clerk?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Including your service as a retail clerk and all your connection with the drug business, what period of time does it cover, generally speaking? I don't care to a year.
A. Oh, for a rough guess from 30 to 35 years, say 30 years.

Q.Always in New Bedford?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You are aquainted with a drug called prussic acid?
A. We keep it in stock, yes, sir.

Q. Have you always?
A. Yes, sir.

Q.As a drug or in pure form?
A. We never have had it only in solution.
---------------------------------------------

page 1279:

Q . In the time that you have been in business, what will you say as to its being sold? For what purposes have you sold it other than as a medicine?

MR ROBINSON. I object to that.

(After many many objections by Robinson, and attempts at rewording the question by Mr. Knowlton, this question was finally allowed to be answered.)

Q. Do you know of any use to which prussic acid is put other than the purposes of a medicine?

MR ROBINSON. Wait a minutem I object to that.

MASON, C.J. It may be answered.

MR ROBINSON. It goes in under our exception.

A. Not that I know of; no, sir.

( No Cross- Examination.)
------------------------------------------------------
Trial testimony of Nathaniel Hathaway page 1285:

Q. What is your business?
A. An analytical chemist.

------------------------------------------------------

Q. Are you aquainted with the nature and uses of drugs?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are you aquainted with the drug hydro-cyanic acid, or prussic acid?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. In both its pure and diluted forms?
A. In the diluted form.

Q.What is the drug usually sold in commerce?
A. What is called two percent solution.

Q.Is that what is known as prussic acid in commerce?
A.Yes, sir.

Q. Mr. Hathaway, what will you say of the adaptability or suitability of the drug called prussic acid on furs?

MR ROBINSON. Please do not answer that I object.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

page 1288:

Q. I put this further question. I ought to caution you not to answer until until it is finally decided that the question may be answered. You were not in here when the other caution was given. Mr. Hathaway, is prussic acid in any form to your knowledge used for the purpose of cleaning furs?

MR ROBINSON. I object to that.

MASON, C.J. He may answer.

A. Not to my knowledge sir.

-------------------------------------------

Trial testimony Henry H. Tillison recalled page 1302:

Q. ( By Mr. Knowlton) As sealskin is used and sold, is it in its natural state, or has it been colored by some drug?

MR ROBINSON. Wait a minute; I object.

page1303

MASON, C.J. I think you ought not reopen that question.

MR KNOWLTON. There is one other question upon which I will take the ruling of the Court.

Q, Whether in your experience, sealskins as used in commerce are subject to the act of moths or other vermin?

MR ROBINSON. We object.

MASON C. J. That is excluded.

Kat @ Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:29 pm wrote:But Bridget didn't see Lizzie. But Andrew may have? How does Andrew seeing her go or return, impact the case?

Well, if Andrew had seen or heard Lizzie leave and come back to the house and mentioned it to Abby, she would have probably told Mrs. Bowen. And there goes Lizzie's alibi about being in the house all day. So then it may have been known that Lizzie left the house, but, not what she went out for. Bence testifies to seeing Lizzie and she would have to do some fancy footwork to cover that up.

So, if there has never been any evidence that prussic acid could be used to clean a seal skin cape...I wonder where Lizzie got the idea?

Tracy, I found this info in the past on Prussic Acid or Hydrogen Cyanide being used in insecticides and went to look for it again. And, a thought hit me, Andrew owned a farm, two farms? And if he was growing any sort of crops he would probably have some sort of knowledge on insecticides, perhaps that is where Lizzie got the idea? Anyway, heres some info:

The control of pests has a long history, dating from the ancient Chinese, who used predator ants to control foliage-feeding insects, to sophisticated modern physical, chemical and biological controls. Methods include physical and chemical controls. Physical methods involved the use of sticky barriers, flooding and burning, but these are effective for only short periods of time. Chemical pesticides began with the use of natural products such as nicotine, petroleum, kerosene, creosote and turpentine which were used widely, and inorganic products such as Paris green, lime sulphur, Bordeaux mixture, hydrogen cyanide and lead arsenate which began to be used in the 1800s. Biological means including introduction of insects to control the spread of other pests and of plants resistant to pests were also employed. For example, Phylloxera, an aphid-like insect that attacked the European vine, was controlled by grafting a more resistant American strain onto the vine.

From this site: http://geog.hku.hk/undergrad/course/2048/2048pest.htm

I thought this info was interesting and included it......

Hydrogen cyanide

Other names:
Hydrocyanic acid
Prussic acid
formonitrile
formic anammonide
carbon hydride nitride
cyclon

Hydrogen cyanide is produced in large quantities all over the world by the chemical industry where it is used in tempering steel, dyeing, explosives, engraving, the production of acrylic resin plastic, and other organic chemical products. Its use in insect killing jars has now largely been replaced by less toxic ethyl acetate. It can be produced by reacting a cyanide salt with a strong acid, or directly from ammonia and carbon monoxide.

Fruits that have a pit, such as cherries or apricots, often contain small quantities of hydrogen cyanide in the pit. Bitter almonds, from which almond oil and flavoring is made, also contain hydrogen cyanide. Some millipedes release hydrogen cyanide as a defense mechanism. Hydrogen cyanide is contained in the exhaust of vehicles, in tobacco smoke, and in the smoke of burning nitrogen-containing plastics.

Hydrogen cyanide (under the brand name Zyklon B) was perhaps most infamously employed by the Nazi regime in Germany as a method of mass-execution.

From this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_cyanide

Great info Melissa. Thank you. I just don't understand where in the world Lizzie would have been able to come up with the idea of using prussic acid to clean her cape if no such use existed. It makes no sense. I can see her coming up with the pear idea as she panicked for excuses...but the prussic acid thing seems to be just too far "out there" to be off the top of her head. There has to be a reason...somewhere ?


Tracy...

That shows it was used as insecticide on plants.. Can anyone find any connection with clothing? Namely fur capes?

Good work Susan ! Now...if Lizzie thought it would kill insects on plants, maybe she really did think it would kill insects on fur as well...if Andrew (or his hired hand) used it on the form ?

I don't know much about the care of expensive furs, but would August be the time of year for cleaning ? I would think the last thing on someone's mind would have been wearing a fur in one of the hottest months !


Tracy...

I found a website where you can send in fur-related questions to be answered by a NYC fur district furrier. Here's what I sent:

Hello,

We are studying the case of Lizzie Borden(yes, from back in 1892). In part of our discussion, we are talking about why Lizzie thought she could buy/use prussic acid to clean her seal skin cape. According to experts at the trial, this would not have been an acceptable use. Was Lizzie just pulling the idea out of thin air...or was it a possible use ?

Thank you so much for your time,
Tracy Townsend
theebmonique@aolcom

http://www.quantitybuy.com/user_guide/ask.htm


Tracy...

Starting on page 1281 of the Trial volume 2 document, there is a furrier called to the stand; Henry H. Tillson. He is followed by Nathaniel Hathaway; a chemist. I'd transcribe it, but, there is alot to write and I'm getting sleepy. Perhaps there are some answers there in the info they give?

Thanks for the reference Susan. In addition to what Melissa posted there is this (it's a lot...due to all the 'objections'):

I get from Hathaway's testimony that IT IS/WAS a possibility that prussic acid could have been used to clean Lizzie's seal skin cape.

Trial, Vol 2, pg. 1279, Charles Lawton (druggist):
Q. In your experience as a druggist, Mr. Lawton, is that drug an
Page 1280
article of commerce for any other purpose than as a medicine?MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I object.
Q. Or upon a prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. I object to that.
MASON, C. J. I do not think the question is what it has been in his
experience; if he knows what form it is---if he can omit that element---
Q. Mr. Lawton, is the drug called prussic acid sold commercially for any other purpose
than upon the prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I object to that, your Honors.
Q. For medicinal purposes, I will add to the question.
MR. ROBINSON. The same objection.
MASON, C. J. Excluded.
Page 1281
Q. Have you ever had in your experience a call for prussic acid for any other than upon
the prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. That I object to
MASON, C. J. It is excluded.
Q. Do you know of any use to which prussic acid is put other than the purposes of a
medicine?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment, I object to that.
MASON, C. J. It may be answered.
MR. ROBINSON. It goes in under our exception.
(The question was read.)
A. Not that I know of; no, sir.
Q. In the time that you have been in business, what will you say as to its being sold? For
what purposes have you sold it other than as a medicine?
MR. ROBINSON. I object to that.
Q. I will modify the question a little. Have you sold it during that time for any other
purpose than upon a prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment.
MASON, C. J. I do not think the question in that form is competent.
Q. In your experience as a druggist, Mr. Lawton, is that drug an
Page 1280
article of commerce for any other purpose than as a medicine?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I object.
Q. Or upon a prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. I object to that.
MASON, C. J. I do not think the question is what it has been in his
experience; if he knows what form it is---if he can omit that element---
Q. Mr. Lawton, is the drug called prussic acid sold commercially for any other purpose
than upon the prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I object to that, your Honors.
Q. For medicinal purposes, I will add to the question.
MR. ROBINSON. The same objection.
MASON, C. J. Excluded.
Page 1281
Q. Have you ever had in your experience a call for prussic acid for any other than upon
the prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. That I object to
MASON, C. J. It is excluded.
Q. Do you know of any use to which prussic acid is put other than the purposes of a medicine?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment, I object to that.
MASON, C. J. It may be answered.
MR. ROBINSON. It goes in under our exception.
(The question was read.)
A. Not that I know of; no, sir.
Trial, Vol. 2, pg. 1281, Henry Tillotson:
Q. What is your business?
A. Hats, caps, furs, and furnishings.
Q. What have you had to do with furs?
A. I have always had the care of furs since I have been in the business, in packing them
and preserving them from moths, and have had the sale of them.
Q. Do you mean simply your own furs that you keep in stock?
Page 1282
A. Not altogether. I have taken others in keeping.
Q. Do you do that extensively?
A. Quite so.
Q. And how long have you carried on that business of caring for and selling your own
furs and the furs of other people?
A. Always, since I have been in the business.
Q. Not selling the furs of other people, of course. And did that include the cleaning of
furs?MR. ROBINSON. I don't think that is a proper question under the
circumstances. We object to it.
Q. Does your business have anything to do with the cleaning of furs?
A. No, sir; nothing more than preserving the furs, taking care of them.
Q. Mr. Tillson, is prussic acid used in any connection with the care of furs?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment; that is objected to.
MASON, C. J. Perhaps it is necessary to develop a little more fully what
the witness's experience has been, the extent of his experience, and whether it has
embraced any scientific study other than his practical experience.
MR. KNOWLTON. I will concede it embraces no scientific study of drugs; his
business is wholly practical.
MASON, C. J. And no study of its application to furs?
MR. KNOWLTON. No, sir. I propose to call another witness on that point, who
is an expert. I only call this man as to his practical knowledge. I concede he has no
scientific knowledge of the nature of the drug. I offer to show by him that it is not a drug
that is used in the business in
Page 1283
connection with furs in any way.
MASON, C. J. Do I understand you to disclaim showing that he has any
knowledge except that gained from his own operations?
MR. KNOWLTON. I suppose so, your Honor; no study of the subject. I
understand so. I will ask the question.
Page 1284
Q. Mr. Tillson, have you any knowledge of the effects of prussic acid upon furs?
A. Not at all, sir.
Q. I will ask you one more question, as to whether you have any knowledge of the use of acid on furs?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I object to that.
(The question was excluded).
MR. KNOWLTON. Now, I leave the witness as I did before, as a man without
scientific knowledge, but with practical information.
MASON, C. J. I do not think it should be included in that view of the
circumstances.
Trial, Vol 2, pg. 1285, Nathaniel Hathaway:
Q. Now take prussic acid. You have got the two per cent solution, as I understand it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is what you call it. Now suppose you were to dilute it still more, what fluid could
you use to dilute it with more?
A. You could use either water or alcohol or ether.
Q. It would mix with water?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It would mix with alcohol?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now suppose you were to dilute it one hundred times more?
A. That is, until it contained two hundredths of a per cent?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you say that any such use of that would not kill the animal life on a piece of
fur?
A. It would be impossible for me to say so without experimenting upon it.
Q. You do not know about that?
A. I am not quite prepared to admit that.
Q. You never have looked into that question at all?
A. Excuse me sir; I have.
Q. Tell me the result of your experiments?
A. I have used the two per cent solution, tried its effect on insects.
Q. That is two per cent in a hundred?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will that kill them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Promptly?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whether any greater dilution of it will accomplish the
page 1296
result, you don't know?
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, your experiments in that direction, have been very limited, have they not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when did you make them with reference to testing the effect of prussic acid upon
insect life?
A. Made them between last night and this morning.
Q. And that is as far as you have got up to this morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is, you took the common prussic acid, what you say is used in commerce, the
two per cent solution, and tried that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you try it on?
A. I tried it on ants.
Q. It killed the ants?
A. No difficulty about that; and various nondescript bugs. Unfortunately, I am not a
naturalist. I cannot tell you what the various small insects I used were. I remember some
spiders.
Q. When did you begin to experiment?
A. You mean on that?
Q. Last night.
A. I commenced about ten o'clock, sir.
Q. Have you been at it all night?
A. No, sir; I gave it up about twelve and commenced again early this morning.
Q. Well, now, the result of all your experiments is simply to tell us that the two per cent
solution, taken just as it is, will kill flies and will kill moths and ants?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is all you can say about it, isn't it?
A. That is all I can say of my own knowledge from my own experiments.
Q. I don't care about anybody's else knowledge. And you
Page 1297
cannot tell anything whether if reduced twice as much, four times as much, what the
effect will be?
A. No, sir.
Q. And that is all the objection that you see to its use on a seal skin cape, isn't it?
A. What objection, sir?
Q. What you have stated. It will kill the insects. That is no objection, is it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, that is the two per cent solution?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now is there any other objection?
A. I think that the poisonous properties of its vapor constitute an important objection.
Q. And that degree of volatility will depend upon the strength of the solution, will it not?
A. On the strength of the solution and upon the temperature.
Q. Leave that element out. Suppose the person is careful in using it, as with the use of
benzine, as you have said, and the use of chloroform and others---suppose the person is
careful in the use of it you don't see any harm that it will do to the seal skin cape, do you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Not any?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then leave out the question of the effect it may have upon the person who is using it,
the care to be taken by that person, there is nothing in prussic acid that makes it an
unsuitable article to use to kill moths on furs?
A. Leaving out the effect on the person?
Q. Yes.
A. Or any other person present?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. None whatever, no objection whatever?
A. No objection
Page 1298
under such circumstances.
Q. And you tell us that that effect upon the person using it will depend entirely, or very
largely, upon the degree of strength of the fluid?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you tell us that you cannot say whether a reduction of the strength of the liquid
will not accomplish the same results as the two per cent solution?
A. Yes, sir.
Page 1299

theebmonique @ Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:52 am wrote:Thanks for the reference Susan. In addition to what Melissa posted there is this (it's a lot...due to all the 'objections'):

I get from Hathaway's testimony that IT IS/WAS a possibility that prussic acid could have been used to clean Lizzie's seal skin cape.

Trial, Vol 2, pg. 1279, Charles Lawton (druggist):
Q. In your experience as a druggist, Mr. Lawton, is that drug an
Page 1280
article of commerce for any other purpose than as a medicine?MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I object.
Q. Or upon a prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. I object to that.
MASON, C. J. I do not think the question is what it has been in his
experience; if he knows what form it is---if he can omit that element---
Q. Mr. Lawton, is the drug called prussic acid sold commercially for any other purpose
than upon the prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I object to that, your Honors.
Q. For medicinal purposes, I will add to the question.
MR. ROBINSON. The same objection.
MASON, C. J. Excluded.
Page 1281
Q. Have you ever had in your experience a call for prussic acid for any other than upon
the prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. That I object to
MASON, C. J. It is excluded.
Q. Do you know of any use to which prussic acid is put other than the purposes of a
medicine?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment, I object to that.
MASON, C. J. It may be answered.
MR. ROBINSON. It goes in under our exception.
(The question was read.)
A. Not that I know of; no, sir.
Q. In the time that you have been in business, what will you say as to its being sold? For
what purposes have you sold it other than as a medicine?
MR. ROBINSON. I object to that.
Q. I will modify the question a little. Have you sold it during that time for any other
purpose than upon a prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment.
MASON, C. J. I do not think the question in that form is competent.
Q. In your experience as a druggist, Mr. Lawton, is that drug an
Page 1280
article of commerce for any other purpose than as a medicine?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I object.
Q. Or upon a prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. I object to that.
MASON, C. J. I do not think the question is what it has been in his
experience; if he knows what form it is---if he can omit that element---
Q. Mr. Lawton, is the drug called prussic acid sold commercially for any other purpose
than upon the prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I object to that, your Honors.
Q. For medicinal purposes, I will add to the question.
MR. ROBINSON. The same objection.
MASON, C. J. Excluded.
Page 1281
Q. Have you ever had in your experience a call for prussic acid for any other than upon
the prescription of a physician?
MR. ROBINSON. That I object to
MASON, C. J. It is excluded.
Q. Do you know of any use to which prussic acid is put other than the purposes of a medicine?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment, I object to that.
MASON, C. J. It may be answered.
MR. ROBINSON. It goes in under our exception.
(The question was read.)
A. Not that I know of; no, sir.
Trial, Vol. 2, pg. 1281, Henry Tillotson:
Q. What is your business?
A. Hats, caps, furs, and furnishings.
Q. What have you had to do with furs?
A. I have always had the care of furs since I have been in the business, in packing them
and preserving them from moths, and have had the sale of them.
Q. Do you mean simply your own furs that you keep in stock?
Page 1282
A. Not altogether. I have taken others in keeping.
Q. Do you do that extensively?
A. Quite so.
Q. And how long have you carried on that business of caring for and selling your own
furs and the furs of other people?
A. Always, since I have been in the business.
Q. Not selling the furs of other people, of course. And did that include the cleaning of
furs?MR. ROBINSON. I don't think that is a proper question under the
circumstances. We object to it.
Q. Does your business have anything to do with the cleaning of furs?
A. No, sir; nothing more than preserving the furs, taking care of them.
Q. Mr. Tillson, is prussic acid used in any connection with the care of furs?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment; that is objected to.
MASON, C. J. Perhaps it is necessary to develop a little more fully what
the witness's experience has been, the extent of his experience, and whether it has
embraced any scientific study other than his practical experience.
MR. KNOWLTON. I will concede it embraces no scientific study of drugs; his
business is wholly practical.
MASON, C. J. And no study of its application to furs?
MR. KNOWLTON. No, sir. I propose to call another witness on that point, who
is an expert. I only call this man as to his practical knowledge. I concede he has no
scientific knowledge of the nature of the drug. I offer to show by him that it is not a drug
that is used in the business in
Page 1283
connection with furs in any way.
MASON, C. J. Do I understand you to disclaim showing that he has any
knowledge except that gained from his own operations?
MR. KNOWLTON. I suppose so, your Honor; no study of the subject. I
understand so. I will ask the question.
Page 1284
Q. Mr. Tillson, have you any knowledge of the effects of prussic acid upon furs?
A. Not at all, sir.
Q. I will ask you one more question, as to whether you have any knowledge of the use of acid on furs?
MR. ROBINSON. Wait a moment. I object to that.
(The question was excluded).
MR. KNOWLTON. Now, I leave the witness as I did before, as a man without
scientific knowledge, but with practical information.
MASON, C. J. I do not think it should be included in that view of the
circumstances.
Trial, Vol 2, pg. 1285, Nathaniel Hathaway:
Q. Now take prussic acid. You have got the two per cent solution, as I understand it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is what you call it. Now suppose you were to dilute it still more, what fluid could
you use to dilute it with more?
A. You could use either water or alcohol or ether.
Q. It would mix with water?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It would mix with alcohol?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now suppose you were to dilute it one hundred times more?
A. That is, until it contained two hundredths of a per cent?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you say that any such use of that would not kill the animal life on a piece of
fur?
A. It would be impossible for me to say so without experimenting upon it.
Q. You do not know about that?
A. I am not quite prepared to admit that.
Q. You never have looked into that question at all?
A. Excuse me sir; I have.
Q. Tell me the result of your experiments?
A. I have used the two per cent solution, tried its effect on insects.
Q. That is two per cent in a hundred?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will that kill them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Promptly?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whether any greater dilution of it will accomplish the
page 1296
result, you don't know?
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, your experiments in that direction, have been very limited, have they not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when did you make them with reference to testing the effect of prussic acid upon
insect life?
A. Made them between last night and this morning.
Q. And that is as far as you have got up to this morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is, you took the common prussic acid, what you say is used in commerce, the
two per cent solution, and tried that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you try it on?
A. I tried it on ants.
Q. It killed the ants?
A. No difficulty about that; and various nondescript bugs. Unfortunately, I am not a
naturalist. I cannot tell you what the various small insects I used were. I remember some
spiders.
Q. When did you begin to experiment?
A. You mean on that?
Q. Last night.
A. I commenced about ten o'clock, sir.
Q. Have you been at it all night?
A. No, sir; I gave it up about twelve and commenced again early this morning.
Q. Well, now, the result of all your experiments is simply to tell us that the two per cent
solution, taken just as it is, will kill flies and will kill moths and ants?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is all you can say about it, isn't it?
A. That is all I can say of my own knowledge from my own experiments.
Q. I don't care about anybody's else knowledge. And you
Page 1297
cannot tell anything whether if reduced twice as much, four times as much, what the
effect will be?
A. No, sir.
Q. And that is all the objection that you see to its use on a seal skin cape, isn't it?
A. What objection, sir?
Q. What you have stated. It will kill the insects. That is no objection, is it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Well, that is the two per cent solution?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now is there any other objection?
A. I think that the poisonous properties of its vapor constitute an important objection.
Q. And that degree of volatility will depend upon the strength of the solution, will it not?
A. On the strength of the solution and upon the temperature.
Q. Leave that element out. Suppose the person is careful in using it, as with the use of
benzine, as you have said, and the use of chloroform and others---suppose the person is
careful in the use of it you don't see any harm that it will do to the seal skin cape, do you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Not any?
A. No, sir.
Q. Then leave out the question of the effect it may have upon the person who is using it,
the care to be taken by that person, there is nothing in prussic acid that makes it an
unsuitable article to use to kill moths on furs?
A. Leaving out the effect on the person?
Q. Yes.
A. Or any other person present?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. None whatever, no objection whatever?
A. No objection
Page 1298
under such circumstances.
Q. And you tell us that that effect upon the person using it will depend entirely, or very
largely, upon the degree of strength of the fluid?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you tell us that you cannot say whether a reduction of the strength of the liquid
will not accomplish the same results as the two per cent solution?
A. Yes, sir.
Page 1299

I think it was Mr. Robinsons intention to get it in there that it was possible. Which is what I stated all along. This is what I mean by "lawyering". If you want to completely overlook the fact that he said the vapors would be too harmful, even poisonous, to the person using it on the cape, then yes I guess it was possible. Because if you notice it says to LEAVE OUT the effect on the person, or any othr persons present. If that isn't "lawyering" I don't know what is. This is like saying it's ok to spray pesticide in your home as long as you leave out the effect it will have on the persons living there. I read all of that but did not post it because of all of the objections. And the fact that it was ludicrous to say that it could be used for cleaning furs as long as you leave out the effect on the person using it. And I didn't post Henry H. Tillison's testimony because all it shows is he was not allowed to testifiy to anything, so there is nothing useful there. Actually of the objections and testimony surpressed about the prussic acid for the use of furs illustrates the point in a way. Because if it really was used for the cleaning of furs, why object to it? More lawyering.

Allen @ Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:46 am wrote:
Trial testimony Henry H. Tillison recalled page 1302:

Q. ( By Mr. Knowlton) As sealskin is used and sold, is it in its natural state, or has it been colored by some drug?

MR ROBINSON. Wait a minute; I object.

page1303

MASON, C.J. I think you ought not reopen that question.

MR KNOWLTON. There is one other question upon which I will take the ruling of the Court.

Q, Whether in your experience, sealskins as used in commerce are subject to the act of moths or other vermin?

MR ROBINSON. We object.

MASON C. J. That is excluded.[/i]

I think was Mr. Knowlton was going to try to show with this testimony, but was no permitted to do so by the defence, is that there was a certain dye used on the commercial seal skins which did not permit them to be "subject to the acts of moths or other vermin."

Melissa, I honestly was not trying to throw a bad light on anything you have posted on this. I only meant to add to it and show why I thought what I did. I totally agree that not allowing/objecting some of the testimony was indeed lawyering. This whole trial was about 'lawyering'. Perhaps it was not wise of me to post all that I did. I will try to be more careful.


Tracy...

theebmonique @ Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:07 pm wrote:Melissa, I honestly was not trying to throw a bad light on anything you have posted on this. I only meant to add to it and show why I thought what I did. I totally agree that not allowing/objecting some of the testimony was indeed lawyering. This whole trial was about 'lawyering'. Perhaps it was not wise of me to post all that I did. I will try to be more careful.


Tracy...

No Tracy it is good that you posted the rest of the testimony. I was just saying why I didn't post it when I posted the information I did. But it is good that you posted the rest of the testimony. Between the two of us the entire testimony is posted so that everyone may read it and not have to go back and reference for themselves.

Thank you for explaining your position Melissa. As I read back, I had to think...WAS I 'overlooking' in regards to the vapors of prussic acid ? Was I being ludicrous in my assessment ? My thinking is that possibly Lizzie was aware of the contraindications for it's use...and adjusted accordingly...for instance using it in a well-ventilated room...or possibly even outdoors ? Where she got her 'awareness', is what I am not sure of. My guess right now, is from it being used as a pesticide on the farm and from her chatting with the farmhand ?


Tracy...

Something else has been bugging me about that testimony, and I thought I would bring it up. It is mentioned by the defense that chloroform was commonly used in households. One incidence that is actually mentioned is the poisoning of a cat. The method described is putting a cat in a box, putting a chloroformed soaked rag in there, and closing the box up. It seems odd to me that the defense would just decide to throw this little scenario about the chloroform in there for no reason. Could it be that they knew about Lizzie buying chloroform to supposedly "kill a cat", and were covering their bases just in case the prosecution would decide to try and admit this as evidence?

Trial testimony Nathaniel Hathaway page 1289+:

Q. How about chloroform?
A. That is also volatile.

Q. And benzine?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well now, those three last ones that I have named, ether, chloroform and benzine, are they in common use among us aren't they?
A. I should hardly say in common use sir.

Q. How about benzine?
A. I can't say very much about that.

Q. Well, don't you know anything about benzine, what it is?
A. Yes, I think I do.

Q. Don't you know anything about it's common use?
A. I know it is used in gas stoves, or a similar compound is used in gas stoves, I don't know exactly what you mean by benzine.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
page 1294-1295:
Q. What do they kill cats with? If you want to kill a cat and not shoot her or knock her on the head of tie a shoe around her and leave her in a bag by the river? What will you kill cats with if you wanted to do it quietly?
A. I am unable to state, sir.

Q. You have no experience in that way?
A. No, sir.

Q. Well suppose you put one in a box and put some strong chloroform in with her, what about it?
A. I think if the box was tight the cat would die, if you put in enough chloroform.

Q. Is it the same about ether?
A. I am doubtful about ether with a cat.

Q. You don't know I suppose?
A. No, sir.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trial testimony Dr. William Dolan page 1299+:

Q. ( By Mr. Knowlton) Dr. Dolan are you aquainted with a drug called prussic acid?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And with its use and properties.
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What are its properties as to volatileness?
A. It is one of the most volatile drugs that we have.

Q. And what about the poisonous effects of the vapors of prussic acid?
A. The most poisonous that we have.

Q. I am now talking about the vapors?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you say the most poisonous?
A. Yes, sir.

I think maybe I'm just being picky about the part about the chloroform, but why bring it up in such a way?

It was at the very end of the prosecution's case. The defense started at Martha Chagnon, after Dolan and Tillson. Last chance, maybe?
Good point about them bringing that up there.

Also note, post by Allen:
"Trial testimony Henry H. Tillison recalled page 1302:

Q. ( By Mr. Knowlton) As sealskin is used and sold, is it in its natural state, or has it been colored by some drug?

MR ROBINSON. Wait a minute; I object.

page1303

MASON, C.J. I think you ought not reopen that question.

MR KNOWLTON. There is one other question upon which I will take the ruling of the Court.

Q, Whether in your experience, sealskins as used in commerce are subject to the act of moths or other vermin?

MR ROBINSON. We object.

MASON C. J. That is excluded.

This is where the evidence as to poison was now concluded and denied- the jury was out through this exchange- and notice There Is No Court Ruling on the admissability as is so often stated- only the whimper of an advisement by the judge not to "reopn the question."
And That's It!

This is a long shot, but would Lizzie have been able to come by some general knowledge about poisons and such from Uncle John? Uncle John boarded with a druggist at least twice in his life. If this person was someone who liked to talk about their business and what they do, one can come by a good bit of general knowledge that way. This knowledge could have been passed down in innocent conversation to Lizzie. Living with my husband I know far more about what my husbands does at work than I would like sometimes. But, I also find myself talking about it in conversation to others at times.

I am not sure that's really a long shot at all. Seems very reasonable.


Tracy...

Allen, where do you find Morse boarding with
druggists, I just don't remember reading that. I
was too focused I guess on him boarding with
butchers. (a deadly combo tho druggists & butchers)

Well, I thought I had heard it before, so I looked at his profile in Rebello on page 70:

John Morse boarded with Mr. and Mrs. George C. Chapin and their three children in 1900.

I guess there goes my long shot . This was after the murders. Unless he boarded with others that we don't know about, or are unknown to us by any records. I'm with Tracy though. Lizzie had to get her knowledge of the poisons from somewhere. But where?

Wow. The pages a little comment can create.
But you had a good one Kat, on the possibility of Lizzie's suicide if the plan didn't work.
Lets look at that from a socialogical point of view, in spite of the fact that I read in an editiorial the other day by Thomas Sowell (? maybe) that if bed pans in hospitals weren't emptied for a week by hospital aids, it would create more of a problem than if sociologists weren't heard from for a year.
There is a solid theory of violence called "goal blockage." If a goal thought to be attainable is blocked, violence will erupt. Suicide is the absolute last resort in goal blockage. The postal worker will save the last bullet for himself. Not to denegrate postal workers whom I rather don't like, but they get the job done.
Now lets take Lizzie's situation. Everything is set up and Uncle John shows up. Well he's in the way. She doesn't know what he plans to do or will do on the day of the event. So she finds a very quick poision that she could have actually bought, she knows, and he could have accidentally ingested - put it on his crackers she thinks. So it is a semi last resort. In her last effort she simply ignores him, hoping he won't hang around which he doesn't.
That answers more questions about Uncle John too. His clue to something bad going on could have been Lizzie's simply ignoring him, perhaps in many ways if we are to believe the soothsayers. So he sets up his alibi day, perhaps believing that Lizzie will commit suicide, and he doesn't want to be around.
A big question of mine has always been why would Lizzie send for Uncle John right after the murders if she didn't even care to say hello to him when he visited?
Sure he's a relative, but third string.
So if you think about the scenario, what does sending Dr. Bowen after Uncle John accomplish in the first place, when she doesn't even want Uncle John around? It gets rid of Dr. Bowen at about the time the police arrive, or a little later. And it's only by Dr. Bowen's snoopiness that he returns.
I think Lizzie would have hung herself and that's probably what she was looking for in the barn.

Why/where would Uncle John get the idea/clues that Lizzie may committ suicide ? Just from her ignoring him ?


Tracy...

I left out something in my post about the poison testimony.
I said the defense started right after Dolan and Tillson. That they started with Martha Chagnon.
They did start with her as their first witness, but I left out the fact that the defense actually started with their opening statement, which was quite long.
You all may already know this, but I want to be clear.

Sending for Morse right after the murders- is that a theory of Brown? That story that Bowen went to Weybosett Street?
I don't think he had time to go there.

As you pointed out earlier, Morse arrived after Lizzie's attempt to buy poison. Unless he arrived in town sooner which we don't know about.. Then if he did arrive sooner, they could have met while Lizzie was out.
I don't see it in Lizzie to commit suicde. I can see her threatening the act, as a melodramatic gesture, as she flounced onto the lounge...throwing her lily white arm over her eyes with her other hand's plump fingers dragging on the carpet.

Back to the subject. I always wondered why Morse set out so late on his *errand* that day, Wednesday. And only getting some eggs for all that traveling. He must have come to town to get some info?

I had a dream about Martha Chagnon,
and I called her Martha my dear,
and she called me LeRoy,and I'll never hear, never hear,
from her other man
about a woman like Martha again
because she heard what she heard
and called me LeRoy again.

This is what I recall:
Martha was a stepdaughter to Marianne (who died only a few years after the Borden tradgedy. She burned to death in a fire).
Martha was playing the piano with the window closed yet thought she heard a noise, Wednesday night. The two women listened and they did hear a noise but the dog didn't bark. Martha's stepmother needed to go to her cellar for some reason, yet Martha would not go with her. Martha has always seemed suspicious to me.

Will PM you re:Martha.
Did you ever read Truman Capote's book, "Glass House?"

I did go through my Truman Capote phase.

I resent that. It's like saying when you were in high school you went through a Kahil Gilbran phase. So, maybe you did, but that is phraseology to use with simple minded persons like Gilbran.
I think Truman Capote was by far the best 20th century writer and would be a lifetime phase for most.
Who would he be up against in your opinion? Hemingway with two good books? Faulkner? The adequate writers drop off after about 1940 and most are unreadable now.
I am not gay, but Capote has been gay bashed badly and I don't like that. Did you know that Capote had a black belt in Karate and kicked Marlon Brando ( who turned out eventually to be a good friend of Capote's) in the face at a party once?
Who was the best writer of all time? I say Dickens.

This room sends me alerts that I posted my own messages.
You were the one who brought Lizzie as suicidal. I had never considered it. To go into why she may have been suicidal just goes over a bunch of old information. I personally don't think she was suicidal because she was dependable and made arrangements to go fishing and wouldn't not show up.
That's the overlay, of course if she could commit suicide at her plan going bad is another story. It does seem very reasonable that the cyanide could have been planned for herself. To kill off Uncle John would just bring in too many unknowns.
It really brings up a myriad of questions. She may in her mind actually have thought she was innocent, even if she conspired. Generally people who feel they are guilty, or are guilty, want to avoid jail for as long as possible, and people who are, or believe themselves to be innocent want to get everything over with and don't mind jail. She willingly went to jail before she probably even had to. That by itself doesn't mean she's innocent, of course, but it's an indicator. Coupled with all the wishy washy evidence against her and in her favor, it leads one to believe, this point alone, that she didn't pull the trigger.

I got the 'suicide idea' when you posted this (the bolding is mine):

His clue to something bad going on could have been Lizzie's simply ignoring him, perhaps in many ways if we are to believe the soothsayers. So he sets up his alibi day, perhaps believing that Lizzie will commit suicide, and he doesn't want to be around.

In regards to my question, a few posts back, it was you john, who brought it up. I just wanted to know why you thought Uncle John would be "perhaps believing" that Lizzie would commit suicide.

You were the one who brought Lizzie as suicidal. I had never considered it.

Tracy...

*** think Truman Capote was by far the best 20th century writer and would be a lifetime phase for most. ***

Try Proust. Or Faulkner, as mentioned -- Faulkner is certainly better and more important as compared to Capote -- no doubt about it. where is the argument? capote's reputation rests on "In Cold Blood" -- that is an accomplishment....his goal was to take truth and translate that into a narrative, fictional work while not losing truth. i would participate in a literary thread.

_________


as for lizzie buying poison and suicide: i still can't get over that bence and company recognized lizzie (and if they had ulterior motives for lying, i wish i knew what they were). this is speculation, but if lizzie was truly desperate, she might well have considered suicide. i don't know what this desperation might have consisted of. we don't know what was going on in that family--that's the problem. but read bence's testimony--what sounds dishonest? sounds like all the world for recognition. why lizzie should run out after abby complains of poison and try to buy it - that's quite a coincidence. this is a stumbling block i can't get through.

Kat @ Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:40 am wrote:I've read it in places that a theory was that she could be preparing for suicide if things went badly awry.
I never thought someone as self-absorbed as Lizzie would ever be a candidate for self-destruction. But that is an example of a contingency and has been published so there are adherents out there.

I can't see Lizzie trying to commit suicide either. Not even if things went bad. I think she held herself in too high regard to do that. Plus she was stubborn as the day is long.I too believe Bence's testimony to be really strong. I believe him.

***I personally don't think she was suicidal because she was dependable and made arrangements to go fishing and wouldn't not show up. ***

what's this business about lizzie making plans to go fishing?

do you think lizzie went to the barn that day? did she want to fix a screen or get sinkers?

do you think lizzie might have gone to the barn that morning when abby was killed as opposed to when andrew was killed?

I could not let this one pass -- "...simple minded persons like Gilbran." There's Truth in simplicity.

I think Kat brought it up, Theebmonique.

I was referring to when you mentioned it in connection with Uncle John...thus the qoute of your post. So, would you mind giving some details as to why you think Uncle John sets up his alibi "perhaps believing"...etc. ??


Tracy...

Yes it was some of the earlier commentary made on the case as to why Lizzie might want prussic acid. I shall look for it.

A phase for me is when I can't afford to buy the book so I have to get it from the library. Those have been phases in my life. The rest of the phase is when I love reading someone so much that I then read everything I can find by and about that author. If I can't collect the work to keep- it is my phase. It's what I go through intensively all concentrated on one thing.
I have had many many phases. A more recent author phase was Domminick Dunne. I don't own any of his books either.
When I was younger I did a John Dickson Carr phase and his estate should be happy because I own upwards of 40 books by him.

A reason to understand why Lizzie might wish to commit suicide is a valid reason to bring it up. If she was being molested or abused as some people believe, it might lend credence to their theory.
I don't promote my own theories here. I prefer to open up potentials and possibilities so people can elaborate with facts and imagination.
But, we can test those here- it's a good place to test a theory, poeople probably agree.

Yes. I am only asking john about his idea because of the Uncle John setting up his alibi connection. I mean do you think Uncle John KNEW something about Lizzie's possible plans ?


Tracy...