Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I got this idea from Kat in another thread, and I thought it was a good idea for a topic. I didn't know how to start it off because there are so many places I wish I had been, and things I wish I had seen, that I had a hard time picking just one. But I think I finally picked one. I'm not sure if I would want to be aboard her, and witness what the other survivors witnesses that night, and would continue to relive for the rest of their lives, or if I would want to be one of the hundreds at the dock who were there to wave good bye to her. But ' I Wish I Had Been There'. What follows is what I know of the Titanic and why I am so passionate about her.



It's been talked about many times before, and many books have been written about it. Many movies and documentaries have been made about it. I own quite a few of these. There are many who have lost sight by now of what really took place on that night, and what it meant to the entire world at that time. It did not simply affect the passengers and the crew aboard her, or their families. It affected entire neighborhoods. It affected countries. It affected the WORLD. During this time, the whole world seemed to be in shock and morning over such a catastrophic loss. Over 1,500 souls went to their death that night, and the rest of the world was left to wonder why? How could this have happened? Wasn't she unsinkable?

The captain had been warned about the icebergs. He did not heed these warnings as he should have. As Titanic slowly slipped beneath the otherwise calm surface of the ocean that night, over 2,000 people were faced with their own mortality. "Woman and children first! ", was the call given out by Captain Smith, though some men were being admitted into a few of the life boats. A male member of the crew was put aboard to take command of each life boat after it had been safely landed in the water. Some of the lifeboats were lowered away not even half full, leaving behind 20 or 30 souls standing on the deck with the hope of catching another. There were only enough lifeboats to accommodate less than half of the passengers on board.

The men had nothing left to do but waited for what they knew was their inescapable fate. What goes through a person's mind as they stare down at the water below, and wonder how much time they have left? How does one put their loved ones aboard a lifeboat and then step back and prepare to meet their fate? The third class passengers were not so lucky. Most had been trapped like rats below decks, waiting behind locked gates for their turn at the life boats. For an overwhelming majority of them, it never came.

The CQD, or distress call, was sent out over the Marconi wireless along with the letters MGY. MGY was the code call of the Titanic. As the first wireless operators aboard other vessels began to receive and decode these distress calls, they were unable to believe that the Titanic was actually going down. This was also the very first time the SOS distress call was ever issued. It was jokingly suggested by wireless operator Harold Bride to, "Send SOS, it's the new call, and it may be your last chance to send it."

The brave men who were working below decks sacrificed their lives to keep the coal fires burnings so the lights would stay ablaze until almost the very end. These passengers were facing a never ending darkness. The lights kept ablaze aboard the ship afforded them some comfort, and kept that darkness at bay until the end. These men never left their post. The ships officers and Marconi operators stayed at their posts until they were officially relieved by the captain. Then it was,"Every many for himself". The band continued to play until it was impossible for them to continue to do so.

White rockets were sent up as distress signals, which lit up the dark sky with a grim yet beautiful brilliance. A Morse lamp was used to try and signal a ship which appeared to be floating near enough to come to their assistance. But she did not answer. It is argued this is the Californian. Her captain, Arthur Henry Rostron, was vilified for his inaction for the remainder of his life. As was Bruce Ismay, chairman of the White Star Line. He survived the sinking by getting into one of the lifeboats as it was lowered away. Many considered him a coward.

The whole world was destined to be changed the instant Titanic sank below the depths. It was never to be the same again. A certain amount of our innocence was lost on the April 15, 1912 at 2:20 am in the morning.


Last year I was really excited to learn that a Titanic survivor had lived for a brief period in the city in which I live. She lost her first husband aboard the Titanic, and she met and married her second husband here. She wrote a book about her experiences aboard the ship, which I am very happy to have a copy of. I also have a copy of her marriage license from the county court house. I did a speech on her for my Speech Class. I was really excited. I told the class about her experiences aboard the ship, talked a little bit about her life after she came to America, and kept the fact that she had lived in our city until the very end of the speech. I simply held up a picture of their home here with the name of the town and the date on it. The whole class was silent for a minute. Finding out a survivor had lived in here really surprised quite a few of them, and really (pardon the pun), brought it home to them.

( sorry for all the edits: it's late and I'm making a lot of mistakes with spelling and such)

Wow. Though the movie was a totally romanticized version of the sinking of the Titanic, it was the first time I ever really felt the horror and sadness of what happened that night. I went to see it on a blind date, and just had tears streaming down my face, not a good first date movie. I don't know that I could deal with being there when it actually happened though, but, it must be one of those things that are etched clearly in your mind for the rest of your life.

Hmmm, so many things I wish I was there for, one off the top of my head that I wish I could have seen was the building of the Great Pyramids of Giza.

That was very well-done Missy and heartfelt!
Thank you for the story, as told by you.

I had seen on TV last year I think, where the Nova Scotia graveyard where a lot of victims ended up was gradually going under water. It's like the sea was yet again trying to claim these people. EErie.

Stef was there last year, or the year before and forgot to visit the place! She is very interested in the Titanic and went down to Tampa/St. Pete where the traveling display was a few years ago.

We were told by a 1/2 aunt that we had a relative on there but when Stef checked the listings he was not on it.

The sinking -or rollover I guess I should call it- in Chicago harbor of The Eastland also affected whole neighborhoods. It was so bad that every other house in some neighborhoods were left dark after the tragedy- whole families wiped out. They were going together on a picnic trip and never left port. Over 800 people died while the city watched and tried to help.
Not too many people know about or remember the Eastland disaster. It's anniversary is coming up.

http://www.eastlanddisaster.org/
"While still partially tied to its dock at the river's edge, the excursion steamer Eastland rolled over on the morning of July 24, 1915. The result was one of the worst maritime disasters in American history. More than eight hundred people lost their lives within a few feet of the shore. The Eastland was filled to overflowing with picnic bound Western Electric Company employees and their families when the tragedy occurred. Investigations following the disaster raised questions about the ship's seaworthiness and inspection of Great Lakes steamers in general."

It's an interesting and horrible story. I had just read a book about it. Also, the building used as a makeshift morgue was featured on one of those ghost & hauntings shows on TV.

This site shows the book I read:
http://www.bellsystemmemorial.com/eastland.html

Susan, you made sure to live 300 years or however long in generations it took to build the pyramids!

I think I would liked to have been there when Jesus was alive and meeting him.
It might be good too to have all that swelling background music so I knew it was all a big deal at the time.

Riveting account, Allen. Your speech on the survivor must have been fantastic.

I'm very interested in the Titanic. I saw the exhibit when it came thru Detroit last year. It was GOOD. It was in Chicago before it came here, and I almost went there to catch it. The artifacts were incredible. That wall of an "iceberg" was really interesting.

I didn't know that about the graveyard in Nova Scotia, Kat. That is really weird.

I didn't feel Bruce Ismay was a coward. Gee, anyone who could save themselves should have.

Did you know that lookout Fleet, who was in the crow's nest and could not see the iceberg until it was too close (the binoculars were missing , I've read) - he committed suicide in later life. They say that if the order had been given to hit the iceberg head on, instead of turning the wheel as they did, the ship would not have sank?

There is a museum of the Titanic Historical Society in Indian Orchard, Massachusetts (very near Springfield, in the middle of the state). It's in the back of Henry's Jewelry Store. I visited it once a few years ago. It's very well known, and they are always being tapped on the shoulder for technical advice if someone does a Titanic documentary. You can be a member, which is neat. I think it's quarterly you receive a gorgeous glossy magazine called The Commutator (or something like that). Totally fabulous magazine - highly collectible.

I wanna say I'd like to have been at Custer's Last Stand, but I would be too scared to see all that. Some recreations are bad enough.

I'd have to say the Borden house to see the murders and see who did it. And to be there when Lizzie and Emma talked between themselves, and Morse. I'd like to be able to walk the streets of FR in 1892, to see just how it was. Then come back here and make a very long post.

augusta @ Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:35 am wrote: Did you know that lookout Fleet, who was in the crow's nest and could not see the iceberg until it was too close (the binoculars were missing , I've read) - he committed suicide in later life. They say that if the order had been given to hit the iceberg head on, instead of turning the wheel as they did, the ship would not have sank?

Yes, it was designed to float with any of the first four compartments flooded. She was also designed to float after sustaining a head on collision. So if they would've hit the iceberg head on, she would've buckled, but she would've been able to make it to New York. There were no binoculars for the look outs, which I think was a major contributing factor to the tragedy. There are so many 'what if's' when you think about Titanic. What if they had seen the iceberg earlier? What if they had hit her head on? What if the Californian had answered the distress calls? What if...

Kat,

I have actually heard a little bit about the Eastland recently, but I don't know many of the specifics. On my DVD version of White Noise they included all those extra features about recording E.V.P's. In the feature titled MAKING CONTACT: E.V.P EXPERTS, the experts visit The Excalibur Nightclub in Chicago. It's explained that when the Eastland capsized, areas in this building were used as a makeshift morgue for the bodies. They recorded some E.V.P's in this building, two of them they believed to be from the Captain of the ship. One says 'I did it', the other says ' My ship.'

He was vilified because he didn't go down with his ship. He calmy stepped off it onto a barge or gangway, as soon as one was put near. Then watched. He got mad a few times- I think they eventually made him vacate the site while rescue efforts were still underway because the crowd decided they wanted his hide!
Anyway, I don't recall how he died, but he wouldn't be haunting the old armory.

Still thinking about what I'd like to have witnessed.

Regarding the Titanic, there is a display on it at the Marine Museum in Fall River, very near Battleship Cove and just a short distance from the B&B. They have the large scale model used in the filming of the 1953 film A Night to Remember. They also have some actual Titanic artifacts and, if I recall correctly, video footage of one of the explorations of the wreck.

The musem also has a lot of stuff related to the glorious steamships of the Old Fall River Line.

RMS Titanic? Here's one of the very best reseach links I've ever seen: http://www.titanicinquiry.org/

The content consists of the full transcripts and final reports of both inquiries into the sinking. These materials may be downloaded from http://www.titanicinquiry.org/downloads.html

Kat @ Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:47 pm wrote:He was vilified because he didn't go down with his ship. He calmy stepped off it onto a barge or gangway, as soon as one was put near. Then watched. He got mad a few times- I think they eventually made him vacate the site while rescue efforts were still underway because the crowd decided they wanted his hide!
Anyway, I don't recall how he died, but he wouldn't be haunting the old armory.

From The Titanic Disaster hearings: The Official Transcripts of the 1912 Senate Investigation.

Testimony of J. Bruce Ismay page 14:

Senator Smith: What were the circumstances, Mr. Ismay, of your departure from the ship?

Mr. Ismay: In what way?

Senator Smith: Did the last boat that you went on leave the ship from some point near where you were?

Mr. Ismay: I was immediately opposite the lifeboat when she left.

Senator Smith: Immediately opposite?

Mr. Ismay: Yes.

Senator Smith: What were the circumstances of your departure from the ship? I ask merely that --

Mr. Ismay: The boat was there. There were a certain number of men in the boat, and the officer called out asking if there were any more women, and there was no response, and there were no passengers left on deck.

Senator Smith: There were no passengers on the deck?

Mr. Ismay: No, sir; and as the boat was in the act of being lowered away, I got into it.

Senator Smith: At that time the Titanic was sinking?

Mr. Ismay : She was sinking.

I find it hard to believe that among all those passengers still on board, there was no one left on deck as he describes. He said he watched the lowering of three boats, and it was the third one he got into as it was lowering away. I've never read any accounts of the crowd turning on Ismay. I have read accounts of an officer telling Mr. Ismay,"If you will get the hell out of that then I shall be able to do something". Because he was excited and ordering the officers to lower away a life boat, and basically getting in the way. I am not sure if he deserved to be vilified, but I do feel that he was an indirect cause of the wreck. After they were taken aboard the Carpathia, he was given a cabin that belonged to the Carpathia's doctor I think, I'm not sure about who it belonged to I haven't read it in a while. But he was given a cabin, and he did not come out of it until they had reached New York.

I am referring to The Eastland Disaster in response to your afternote about the haunted saloon in Chicago. My comments merely meant that this ship's captain did survive and therefore probably does not haunt that site.

When I think about going back in time (perhaps to the time of Christ, for example), I inevitably think about how rarely people bathed in those days, and I'm pretty glad I didn't live back then.

Even when I was a kid in rural South Carolina back in the 1940s, a lot of my classmates didn't have running water in their homes. In health class, we were taught that a couple of baths a week would suffice in the wintertime. I don't think some of those people bathed nearly that often.

In my Sunday School classroom, we had a beautiful colored lithograph of Jesus welcoming little children from all the nations on earth. (Well, there was a representative sample, anyway.) He and all the children looked so clean and pretty. Jesus looked as if he had just had his hair done and his beard trimmed. -- But the reality would have been something quite other, I fancy.

(After December 7, 1941, we got some scissors and neatly cut the little girl with the kimono right out of the picture.)

Kat @ Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:39 am wrote:I am referring to The Eastland Disaster in response to your afternote about the haunted saloon in Chicago. My comments merely meant that this ship's captain did survive and therefore probably does not haunt that site.

Sorry, I got my signals crossed Kat. That seems to be happening more as I am getting closer to finals for my summer class. I'm studying for finals, and researching a few different subjects as well. I think I'm trying to stuff too much info into my head at one time. The Eastland disaster is really an interesting topic. As I said I'm not really sure of the specifics, since the only information I have so far is what's on the DVD, and what you provided here. I can't believe a boat could just capsize like that, it almost seems unreal.

I wondered why you were up so late and thought I can outdo you in staying up! because my brain is used to it, and it's my normal schedule! I don't know about anyone else but my clock on my messages is off by an hour- it was really quarter of five at my house! I don't take caffeine but I don't go to bed until about 6 or 7 a.m.

Anyway, I learned some about The Titanic from your Hearings excerpt.

Kat @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:57 am wrote:I don't know about anyone else but my clock on my messages is off by an hour....

Kat, to fix your clock:

Go to the main screen which shows all the categorys. Above your avatar click your name where it says "Welcome Kat".

Space down to Timezone. Change that to

(GMT - 4 hours) Atlantic Time (Canada) , Caracus

Voila

Kat @ Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:40 am wrote:Susan, you made sure to live 300 years or however long in generations it took to build the pyramids!

I think I would liked to have been there when Jesus was alive and meeting him.
It might be good too to have all that swelling background music so I knew it was all a big deal at the time.

I think that's a good choice Susan. I think the pyramids are really fascinating. I am always left wondering how they were built. They are such huge structures . That's a lot of grueling physical labor that went into the building of those. Well, unless you subscribe to the theory they were helped by little green men. I also think that Kat's choice was really interesting. I'm really interested to see what others will pick.

Speaking of the Titanic, there's a TV show "Auction Adventure" on the FINE channel, at 1 p.m. Eastern time, tomorrow, Sunday, June 26. 30 minutes long. The description reads:

"The Titanic", sale of items from the Titanic.

I personally would like to have been there to see Cain get kicked out of the garden of eden..why you say...I want to know who he found to marry.LOl...joking....I cant think of any particular event...there are so many..I am naturally curious...so how about time jumping.,..sneaking around all these unsolved events would be my ideal.

Oh wow, I wonder what kind of items they will possibly have up for sale?? That would be an interesting program to watch.

Our brother was just climbing a Mayan pyramid last week. He said when he was down again his legs were quivering. And he's pretty fit, endurance-wise.
It was about 170 feet high and when he got to the top there was a temple. He could see above the canopy of trees to the next pyramid, about 50 miles away. Apparently what the guides tell one about the culture is pretty much guess work. He figured they were a necessary spot in which to send signals to the next civilized area without cutting down the trees, which is what we would do.

Allen @ Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:37 pm wrote:Oh wow, I wonder what kind of items they will possibly have up for sale?? That would be an interesting program to watch.

It was very interesting Melissa.

It said there were over 500 items for auction. 75% of those were supposed to be owned by one fellow who was selling his collection. He was at the auction.

The prime piece was an original first-class menu, one of only 3 known to exist. It went for $75,000 + 18% fee to the auction house. That's another $13,500. He did his bids over the phone.

There was also a deck chair which I think went for either $6,000 or $8,000. The fellow who owned that made the mistake of getting a repair done to it which lowered its value.

Most were small items, plates, letters from passengers, other menus, photographs and even some pieces of the wood from the staircase.

Another item was a small nameplate taken from one of the life boats. I can't remember what it sold for but it was a big number.

There a small write up on the TV show at:

http://www.fineliving.com/fine/auction_ ... 44,00.html

And apparently there was a pre-announcement of the auction at this site:

http://www.guernseys.com/Auctions/PastE ... About.html

Thanks Harry!! I wish I could bid on some of those items myself. A name plate from a lifeboat, passenger letters, I would love to own any one of the items you mentioned. I did see the Titanic exhibit at The Marine Museum in Fall River. It included a deck chair, and a life belt which is said to have been worn by Lady Astor. I'm not sure if the exhibit is still the same as it was then. The life belt didn't look anything like what I had pictured. All of the items in the exhibit fascinated me. I imagined the use they had in another time and place. Lizzie and Titanic all in one visit, it didn't get any better than that. My husband is very interested in going back to stay, but his main goal is to go to Martha's Vineyard and walk along the beach where they filmed Jaws. It's one of his all time favorite movies. Men.

How does everyone feel about the removal of items from the wreckage to be sold or exhibited? Some feel it is fine; others feel that it is akin to graverobbing.

That's a most interesting question (and dilemna) stuartwsa.

My personal initial reaction years ago, when they first began to recover items from the wreckage site, was the graverobbing one. To a great extent it still is.

However, I think a case can be made depending on the object. If we break them down into items related to the ship itself as opposed to personal items of the passengers it is less clear, at least to me.

I understand the remains of the Titanic are scattered over a large area and the ship itself is in multiple pieces. Whether we can consider all this scattered wreckage over such a wide area a shrine or memorial is a difficult question. From TV footage I saw many items were lying on the ocean floor completely disassociated from the main parts of the ship wreckage.

There were several personal objects being displayed on that TV show, one being a pocket watch recovered from the body of a fireman. Now that crosses the line to my thinking.

I'm at a loss to say how to handle pieces of the staircase, plates and objects of that sort.

Perhaps everything should be left alone. But just as every grave site that could be located in Egypt was looted, I'm afraid that that is not likely to happen. Luckily the Titanic is in a location far more difficult to exploit.

In that second URL I posted above it has this interesting line regarding the auction:

"Care is being taken to ensure that none of the Titanic items are the result of modern salvage operations."

"Care is being taken to ensure that none of the Titanic items are the result of modern salvage operations."

Interesting... I wonder how they would vouchsafe that?

Actually I think I remember seeing something to the effect that some outfit (I forget the name) was awarded salvage rights a few years ago, and the plan was to take advantage of them.

The few recovered personal items I've seen photos of - well, at first look they're fascinating, but then comes the reminder of 1,507 lost souls...

Other things, like plates, flatware, or such like that I have no trouble with being recovered, I suppose because the same or similar things were found on every ship of the White Star Line.

As I understand it though, the old girl is in really bad shape, rapidly approaching a condition rendering her completely unsafe for exploration by anything but remote cameras...

Harry @ Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:25 pm wrote:
There were several personal objects being displayed on that TV show, one being a pocket watch recovered from the body of a fireman. Now that crosses the line to my thinking.

If this is really the case then, that to me is definitely crossing the line as well. It was my understanding that there wouldn't be any remains left. But to think about that, the watch maybe having come from a fireman's remains, that would be taking it too far.

I think there is a fine line just as Harry said. It depends on the item, and how it was obtained. The pictures of the shoes laying side by side haunt me everytime I see them. This was most probably where a person had come to their final end all that time ago, and all that remains are those shoes side by side. I even have a problem with collecting those. I think they should be left alone. Robert Ballard, who discovered the Titanic, was strictly opposed to anything being salvaged from the wreck.





For anyone who hasn't seen it, I recommend the movie Ghosts of the Abyss.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0297144/

Ballard left a memorial plaque when he visited the ship the first time. The last time he visited the ship, the plaque was gone. He blamed its disappearance on his very strong stance on not removing any items from the site.