Lizzie Borden Society Forum

i've wondered if you collected all time reports from those who used the city clock -- if they would fit together. these are only from Witness Statements and Trial Vol 1.

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Witness Statements, pg 10
"Miss Mary Gallagher, at McManus, saw Mr. Borden at the corner of Main and Spring streets, just turning up Spring, with a small package in his hand, at 10:15. She remembered the time, for she was just coming down town, and looked up at the City Clock."

Trial, Jonathan Clegg, pg 173
Q. Now, will you tell me what time it was when Mr. Borden left your shop?
A. Exactly 29 minutes past ten.
Q. What means did you fix that time?
A. The City Hall clock.
[ ]
Q. Did you look at the clock before he left you, or after he left you, or as he left you?
A. Just as he left me I looked at the City Hall clock.
(he says he called Borden into his store, which was 6 North Main street.)

Trial, James Mather
Q. Now can you tell me what time it was when Mr. Borden went away from that store?
A. About twenty minutes of eleven.
Q. Did you consult any time-piece at or about the time he went away?
A. I looked at the City Hall clock.
on cross:
Q. To the best of you recollection, 10:40, twenty minutes before eleven, was when he came up?
A. Not when he came up, but while he was around there. That is what I meant.
[ ]
Q. And he was there some three or four minutes, upstairs and around?
A. About that time.

Trial, Bridget, pg 239
Q. What is the first occasion that you had to notice the time after you got up in your bedroom?
A. I heard the bells outdoors ring, the City Hall bell, as I suppose it was, and I looked at my clock and it was eleven o'clock. My clock was in the room.

Trial, Alice Russell, pg 380
Q. Did you notice the eleven o'clock bell?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it before or after that bell that Bridget came to you?
A. After.

Trial, Francis Wixon, pg 444
Q. Well, state about what time you got to the station.
A. About one minute past eleven o'clock.
Q. Had you had to consult a timepiece before that, or had you seen a timepiece?
Q. Oh, I heard the bell on the City building ringing as I was turning the corner going up to the marshal's office. I should judge the distance was about 80 feet.
[ ]
Q. Do you recall his being called to the telephone at any time?
A. I do, very shortly after I went in.
Q. Could you give me an estimate of about how long it was after you went in?
A. Well, I shouldn't think it was more than ten or fifteen minutes.

Trial, Patrick Doherty, pg 589
Q. When had you last observed the time before the talk with the marshal?
A. 11:25.
Q. Where were you then and what did you look at?
A. I was on the corner of Bedford and Second street, City Hall clock.
Q. And from Bedford and Second streets where did you go?
A. To the station.
Q. About how far is it from the place when you saw the clock to the station?
A. Oh, it is not a hundred feet.
Q. Did you receive this communication as soon as you got to the station or after you had been there?
A. I had been there two or three minutes.
Q. After you had the talk with the marshal, what did you do?
A. I started for 92 Second street.
[ ]
Q. Did you overtake any one of any consequence in this case on the way up?
A. I did, yes, sir.
Q. Whom did you overtake?
A. Mr. Wixon.

Trial, Medley, pg 686
Q. Then where did you go?
A. 92 Second st.
Q. How do you go?
A. I walked.
Q. Do you know what time you arrived there?
A. About twenty or nineteen minutes of twelve.
Q. Did you have any occasion, or did you in point of fact, look at any timepiece later than the clock in the northern police station?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When and where?
A. When I was passing City Hall.
Q. What time was it as you passed the City Hall?
A. I saw nineteen or twenty minutes of twelve.
Q. From the City Hall or from the point next to City Hall where you observed this clock, did you go directly to the Borden house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whom did you see there when you first got there?
A. Mr. Sawyer was the first one, a man at the door.

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the oddest thing is Mary Gallagher saying she saw Andrew there at 10:15. it sounds like she really saw him, but she must be wrong about the time. i wonder if there is a simple explanation -- was she misunderstood, for ex? she might have said 15 till eleven (which is possible)?

I'm looking at the map in Mr. Rebello's book (p. 566). It is possible that Andrew had turned up Spring St., then remembered he wanted to go Clegg's, turned around unseen by Mrs. Gallagher, and back to Clegg's new store. It was at 92 South Main, just around a relatively short block from his house. In real life, people don't always travel a direct path.

I was under the impression that Andrew was ducking Clegg that morning. Andrew was pasing on the opposite side of the street wasn't he? And Clegg had to call him over?
This was after seeing Clegg twice that week already.
Clegg sounded fussy to me.

It's interesting to note that Ms. Gallagher was not called as a witness at any of the formal hearings. But then again there were a few others not called. Pierre Leduc, the barber, comes to mind. Then there also the mysterious Mr. Horton who is mentioned in several newspaper articles. He allegedly had a talk with Andrew right in front of City Hall.

They spent a great deal of time at the trial documenting Andrew's last walk home and why some were called and not others is curious.

One of the books, DeMille's, says that the clock at the City Hall was possibly wrong. On page 35:

"About ten or twenty minutes passed. The time lapse was hard to determine for the city hall clock was known to be out of kilter. ..."

Then later, same page:

"Bridget thinks she rested only five to ten minutes. She was aware when the city hall bell rang eleven - off by ten minutes - and about ten minutes later she heard Miss Lizzie screaming ..."

I don't think DeMille ever says whether it was fast or slow by that 10 minutes. Since her book, I believe. it is the only place such a contention is made, it may be just a DeMille-ism. All of our Borden authors seem to have at least one "ism".

it's possible that andrew got nearly home and then turned around and went back at 10:15 -- but then if we try to get this in the context of clegg and mather (and they are in sync) -- then andrew has to go north up main to clegg's old store at 10:29 before stopping ten min. later at the new store.

i think mather sees him come from the north. clegg sounds like he had a complaint for andrew. i notice how exacting he is about 10:29 and he doesn't allow any confusion about when he looked at the clock relative to seeing andrew.

the city clock, of course, can be wrong. but as a way of synchronizing as many people as possible.

i don't see anything "wrong" with the officers so far.

I'm doing some Horton research now.

There was a Horton who supposedly owned a building at Durfee and Main Streets. This is confusing to me because I believe these streets run parallel. My supposition is that the build may have been on a block between the two streets.

The Genealogy Room at the library was closing when I found this information. I need to go back and re-check the source. (Then perhaps a trip to the Fall River Registry of Deeds?)

The Horton in question died in 1881 and the building went to his heirs. I do not know if it was still in possession of these heirs in 1892. One of them, however, was David M. Anthony Jr.

It's a small world afterall. It's a small, small world...

As an aside, I own a leather briefcase hand-crafted by Jonathan Clegg of Fall River (the great grandson, I think).

***As an aside, I own a leather briefcase hand-crafted by Jonathan Clegg of Fall River (the great grandson, I think).***

such as what the great grandfather might have displayed in the newly refurbished window? that's interesting.

He does very high quality work. I've had the thing for years, and it still looks great.

Harry @ Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:03 am wrote:It's interesting to note that Ms. Gallagher was not called as a witness at any of the formal hearings. But then again there were a few others not called. Pierre Leduc, the barber, comes to mind. Then there also the mysterious Mr. Horton who is mentioned in several newspaper articles. He allegedly had a talk with Andrew right in front of City Hall.

I submit Charles M. Horton (1841-1903) as the candidate for the mysterious Mr. Horton.

He was heir to 1/2 of his parents' [Mason and Sarah Ann (Baker) Horton--first cousins] estate which included some properties at June and Locust Sts. and a building at Durfee and Main (which may be listed as Locust St. rear of 114 & 116 N. Main in some city directories--I believe this is new street numbering). He shared the estate with his parents' 3 grandchildren.

Charles was married from 1867-1869 to Hannah J. Borden, daughter of Deacon Joseph C. Borden. She, by my calculations, was Andrew Borden's second cousin once removed. They had no viable offspring.

Charles married his second wife in 1879. She was Sarah P. Buffington, daughter of the first Fall River mayor and U.S. Congressman, James Buffington.. Please note that Lizzie's concerned next-door neighbor Mrs. (Buffinton) Churchill lived in the so-called "Mayor's House".

One of the grandchildren with whom Charles M. Horton shared his parents' estate was his nephew, David Mason Anthony, Jr., a possible suitor of Lizzie's.

Sources:
FRCD
New Bedford Standard-Times, January 13, 1985 edition--5 articles:
1)"Did Lizzie's beau kill Bordens?"
2)"Beau, not Lizzie, axed parents, family friend says"
3)"I knew the whole story from an innocent woman"
4)"Obscure David Anthony led a carefree life"
5) "Discrepancies don't totally discredit case"
Historical and Genealogical Record of the Descendants as far as Known of Richard and Joan Borden Who Settled in Portsmouth, RI, May 1638, etc. by Hattie Borden Weld, printed privately.
Thomas Horton of Milton and Rehoboth, Volumes 1 & 2 by Margaret R. Jenks, printed privately, copyright 1987.

Thanks Cynthia. Good digging.

My interest in Horton was why he wasn't called as a witness. I did find this in the FR Evening News, dated Aug. 5, 1892:

Another "Suspicious Circumstance"

Another story which has been run down is the following: Mr. Borden, while standing on the post office steps yesterday morning, was seen talking with a thick set man, emphasizing his remarks by a gesticulation of his hand and forefinger, a rather unusual demonstration for a man of so calm a temperment. The gentleman with whom this conversation was held was Mr. Charles M. Horton, and the subject matter had relation to the block which Mr. Horton is now erecting on North Main street. Mr. Horton says the conversation was held within 10 minutes of half-past 10 o'clock."

This article has them meeting in front of the post office while the book said City Hall. Flip a coin.

Wow, Harry!

With all the reading I've been doing in the "Evening Standard," you would think I would have seen that.

Actually, I had been concentrating on the HOME MATTERS portion and other articles that pertained to the so-called normal summer life.

Also, Harry, are you able to tell me how Mrs. Churchill was related to Mayor Buffington? I've done no research here.

Cynthia, this is from Rebello, p98:

"Mrs. Adelaide (Buffinton) Churchill was born in 1850 in Fall River, Massachusetts, and she was one of nine children of the Hon. Edward Purrington Buffinton (1814-1871) and Comfort (Taber) Buffinton (1819-1899). Her father was elected alderman in 1855. Upon the resignation of the Hon. James Buffinton, he was appointed mayor. He was re-elected mayor in 1860 and remained in that position until 1866. ..."

Great middle name for a cat lover, Purr-ington.

Harry--I'm missing something. Is Edward P. Buffinton related to James Buffington? Or is the name similarity just a coincidence?

Harry--weren't the City Hall and the Post Office located diagonally across from one another?

I have my own opinion why Mr. Horton wasn't called as a witness (heck, he was even interviewed by the police, was he?)

And why would he be gestulating to Andrew about his building on N. Main and Locust? Unless Andrew has been sending him all the disreputable people who have been seeking tenancy in the Borden building? Now why would Andrew do that?

Kind of makes Arnold Brown's Mellen House meeting seem plausible. My take is that Brown just got the person wrong.

You can call me Purr-ington anytime.

Yes, the post office was just behind the City Hall on Bedford Street between Second and Third streets. The post office faced Bedford St. and the City Hall faced Main.

I don't know about the relationship of the two Buffintons. Kat probably can tell us.

Buffinton is one of those Fall River names that pops up all over the place. The publisher of Porter's book The Fall River Tragedy was a Geo. R. H. Buffinton and one of the members of Lizzie's Grand Jury was Elisha W. Buffinton of Fall River.

See Phillips History of Fall River, F.III, pg, xv, for James Buffington and 45-7 & 66 for Edward P. Buffinton.
Edward, Adelaide Churchill's father was the 2nd mayor of Fall River, after James Buffington. (James was Mayor May 6, 1854, re-elected in 1855, and resigned before completing his second term to go to Congress.. In 1854 during his first term, Edward was an Alderman).
Edward was variously mayor several times, it seems, as it was only a yearly office.
Adelaide's house was called The Mayor's House because her father had been mayor.
Phillips says, in a footnote (p66) that Edward was dubbed "Butcher Buffinton" to distinguish him from other Buffintons.

If you have the URL for The Keeley Library online, you can access Phillips History, now.
Anybody have that address?

Cynthia, you gave these as sources on the Horton person:
Sources:
FRCD
New Bedford Standard-Times, January 13, 1985 edition--5 articles:
1)"Did Lizzie's beau kill Bordens?"
2)"Beau, not Lizzie, axed parents, family friend says"
3)"I knew the whole story from an innocent woman"
4)"Obscure David Anthony led a carefree life"
5) "Discrepancies don't totally discredit case"

I recall reading all these I think and I don't remember any of the Horton information you posted as being contained in there. I recall one reference to Horton as David's uncle, and what he did for a living- and not much else?
Do I need to go back and read all these articles?

Keeley Library
http://www.sailsinc.org/durfee/fulltext.htm

Here is the Phillip's History online- see the bottom of the page.

There are a lot of Fall River pictures and postcards.
I've found that if you have Photoshop you can drop a yellow postcard in there and ask it to automatically adjust the color and they turn out very well.

Kat--you don't need to read those, They're my original source for Anthony info and the alternate scenario of suitor as murderer that led me to Horton.

But I don't care about the MAYORS. I just want to know if James Buffington was related to E. P. Buffinton. I seem to remember reading something about them a long time ago. Maybe it was in Sullivan? I can't seem to find what I'm searching for.

I don't think a Buffington was related to a Buffinton, at least I have not looked for their genealogy.
Why would they be related?

The Keeley Library online is a good source for members so I remind them of this link, which took me a while to find, as I have lost all my bookmarks.

I was asked for mayors and I provided mayors.

I think it is interesting about the times and the clock and how many people can be looking at the same clock, and the time is still off. They couldn't exactly get the time of death of andrew borden or when he got home for that matter.