Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I just finished reading Masterton's book and tried to see in the archives what you all thought of it. I only found a few references. (I did see some of the postings from that Brown-obsessed fellow though--can see why you had bad memories if that) I think I remember reading somewhere that Abby had things in her stomach that were not available in the Borden house. Could some of his theories been possible? Tell me what your views are about this book. I would be very interested to hear.

I think Masterton's book is the most fun reading of all the Borden books I have. He's a great writer. I do not, however, really agree with his rather far-fetched premise that has Abby going to her half-sister's house and gorging on mince pie before the murders. It's a very convoluted way to explain the presence of "fruit skins" in Abby's stomach. I haven't gone back over the testimony covering this finding, but I always assumed that the fruit skins could have been from pears. It's also possible that there was some other fruit in the Borden house that Abby could have eaten that morning. I recall that John Morse was pretty vague about what fruit was on the table, and I don't think anyone mentioned other fruit that might have been in the Borden larder.

Sarah ("Bertie") Whitehead was interviewed by the authorities more than once. If Abby had visited her house on August 4 and had left any evidence of her visit, Bertie would probably have mentioned it. Of course, Abby might have visited and left no evidence, or she might not have visited at all.

The book was interesting in the aspect that it opened up my mind to thinking of other theories. After Brown's work-- it was easy to dismiss any new theories. I wish he had NOT presented any theories at all...

As far as Abbie--- I have always wondered if she was a secret eater.... Who knows what she ate when?

What is the name of the book by masterton?
I'd like to read it.

The name of the book is "Lizzie Didn"t Do It."

Edisto--we KNOW there were pears available.

I found Masterton's book to be very interesting. He is also a good writer and very amusing in parts.

From all the testimonies Second Street seemed to have had a lot of people on it that morning yet no one seen her go or return. It's possible but not likely as they appeared to notice everybody else that morning.

I would also think she would have known her sister would not be home and off on her day trip to Rocky Point. Its the kind of things people tell each other. Of course it may have been some last minute decision on the sister's part, but she apparently had made arrangements in advance for someone (Lucy Cahoon) to mind her kids.

Like Edisto, I found the ending weak. Not only the eating of the pie but the falling asleep while she was at the Whiteheads. I realize he has to account for her absence for nearly two hours but his ending appears to be a bit made up.

Thank you Angel. I know this book and now can order it through barnes and noble.

In '03 I walked the route Abby would most likely have taken to the Whitehead's with Len and Bill, and I can't imagine that anyone wouldn't have seen stout little Abby in her morning calico on her way, or back. Second Street was only a semi-residential street, correct? Weren't there shops and a Chinese laundry just a few buildings away from #92? Good old Mark Chase, sitting outside nearly all day certainly didn't see her, did he?

I enjoyed the book, but couldn't buy the theory at all, though his "explanation" of the note is ingenious.

I guess should check it out of the library before I buy it, huh?

To (possibly) end this thread, my father, William Masterton, passed away in June of 2005 after a massive heart attack. He was 77. It was essentially all over in a few minutes, so he did not go through a long period of suffering. It was quite a shock, since was in seemingly good health right up to the end.

He never owned a computer, which was why he did not post on this (or any other) forums. When my parents were visiting once, I showed him where we had found on older forum, and he enjoyed reading the reviews of his book, but that's about as far as that got.

For anyone who wrote letters to him over the last year or so that were not answered, sorry about that. My mother simply can't keep up with trying to answer letters.

I think my only influence on his theories may have been to caution him not to make too much out of old circumstantial/hearsay evidence. I showed him a Nova episode form the 1980's concerning the hunt for the final resting place of Butch Cassiday and the Sundance Kid (much less evidence available here than in the Borden case, of course).

An investigative team was brought to a Bolivian village said to be the site of Butch and Sundance's last stand and subsequent burial. After listening to the story of how Sundance shot Butch then himself rather than be taken alive, they were taken to a local cemetery and shown where the two were supposedly buried. They exhumed a skeleton of a caucasian male who had obviously died of massive head trauma. The skeleton was the right size for the Sundance Kid, and a facial reconstruction from the skull bore a resemblance to him as well. Much was made of an orthodic device found in what was left of one of his boots. A visit to the present-day Longbaugh family (The Sundance Kid's actual last name) showed that many of the males members have a rather peculiar walk that was attributed to a hereditary bone malformation.

Alas, when the DNA evidence came in, there was not a match. One of the later scenes in the episode shows the team leader uttering an expletive when he found out. To add insult to injury, a photo surfaced of the cemetery a few years ealier, and there was a headstone on the grave that they had excavated. While not totally legible in the photograph, they were able to conclude that the person they had exhumed was actually a German mining engineer who had been killed in a mining accident at about the turn of the century, which explains the age of the burial, the ethnicity, plus the head trauma. The team was apparently deliberately misled, and much of their case was based on wishful thinking.

Watch just about any History or Discovery Channel documentary where they are searching for evidence of past deeds, and you can pick holes in their theories as well.

- Fred Masterton

I am so very sorry about the loss of your father.

Fritz, so sorry to hear of your fathers passing, I haven't read his book yet, but I intend to. Welcome to the forum!

I've read one book by (Edgar?) Snow, a famous forensic anthropologist who has been on many missions to foreign lands (the 'Disappeared' in Argentina, for example). This book was part biography, growing up the son of a doctor in rural Oklahoma. (I hope my memory is correct.)

I believe the book tells about his visit to Bolivia and the search for Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. I sort of remember they were both killed in the shootout when the Argentinian soldiers found their hide-out. When the US became too hot for them, they went to South America. Out of the frying pan into the fire?

If you find this book at your library, borrow and or browse it. Its good.

Thanks for posting, Fritz/Fred!
I was recently reading letters between your father and Terence Duniho. My sister Stefani, whose site this is, was granted these privately and graciously by Terence's widow, Simone.

I enjoyed them very much. The details they exchanged are wonderfully interesting! Dr. Masterton seemed very open and careful and willing to explore and explain and listen and share. I'm sure Terence was very grateful for his time.

I had heard about the loss of your father, but did not know you to express condolences.

I'm very sorry for your loss.

I agree. he makes for some interesting reading. He is fun to read though.

The major problem with Masterton's book is not the correct title, it is his unsupported claim that Abby was killed after Andy!
The witnesses and medical doctors all agreed with the traditional story, based on the facts of the case.

The first part of his book is a summary of the murder story.

Have you reviewed it for Amazon dot com, "Acute Observer?"

Kat @ Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:35 pm wrote:Have you reviewed it for Amazon dot com? ...

Are you recommending those reviews?
Or suggesting others should submit a review?

Thank you for posting, Fred, and welcome!

I enjoyed your father's book as well as his contributions in the Lizzie Borden Quarterly.

The book presented some ideas that made one think. His analysis of the blood evidence was particularly interesting.

I was sorry to hear of his passing.

Again, welcome.

I've been looking at the blood testimony on Mrs. Borden. Granted, her blood was congealed and Andrew's fresh when it was first viewed.

The key words there are "first viewed". Masterton says in his book, page 204, "... coagulation of blood is usually complete within 5 - 15 minutes, as you have noticed when you cut yourself. ..."

As far as I can see George Pettee was the first to feel Abbie's head and say her blood was coagulated. In his testimony he says Dr. Bowen told him Abbie was dead upstairs. (p645+, Trial) That would have been after Dr. Bowen returned from sending the telegram, somewhere around 11:40.
Dr. Bowen says Dr. Dolan arrived about 15 to 20 minutes after he returned, ie: 11:55 to 12:00 noon. (p322-Trial)

So Pettee was up there somewhere between 11:40 and 11:55. If Abbie had been killed somewhere slightly after 11 there would have been more than enough time for her blood to congeal.

I am not saying I believe that she was but I believe Masterton is correct when he argues against the blood condition as proof that Abbie died considerably earlier. The condition of her blood at 11:40 or so means nothing. It would have been coagulated whether she was killed at 9:30, 10:00, 10:30 or 11:00.

He also shows how digestion can be idiosyncratic, doesn't he?
I have always believed that digestion, even now, is hard to use as a determinant of [edit here- add:] Time of Death.

Kat @ Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:54 am wrote:He also shows how digestion can be idiosyncratic, doesn't he?
I have always believed that digestion, even now, is hard to use as a determinant of death.

You can look it up. Digestion is usually complete in 2-3 hours, so a longer time would not be used as a marker. The state of digestion is also a clue. Perhaps some book from a college library will tell you what you need to know. This knowledge would be known to the medical profession (medical examiners and forensic doctors), not the general public. Except through mystery novels (a good reason to read good ones). Patricia Cornwell does feature a Medical Examiner as the detective.

One mystery novel had this question. If the person in a hotel room ordered salad, steak, potatoes, and peas, but the stomach contents showed salad, steak, potatoes, and carrots, what could explain this? Its not just digestion.

Harry @ Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:10 pm wrote:I've been looking at the blood testimony on Mrs. Borden. Granted, her blood was congealed and Andrew's fresh when it was first viewed.

The key words there are "first viewed". Masterton says in his book, page 204, "... coagulation of blood is usually complete within 5 - 15 minutes, as you have noticed when you cut yourself. ..."

As far as I can see George Pettee was the first to feel Abbie's head and say her blood was coagulated. In his testimony he says Dr. Bowen told him Abbie was dead upstairs. (p645+, Trial) That would have been after Dr. Bowen returned from sending the telegram, somewhere around 11:40.
Dr. Bowen says Dr. Dolan arrived about 15 to 20 minutes after he returned, ie: 11:55 to 12:00 noon. (p322-Trial)

So Pettee was up there somewhere between 11:40 and 11:55. If Abbie had been killed somewhere slightly after 11 there would have been more than enough time for her blood to congeal.

I am not saying I believe that she was but I believe Masterton is correct when he argues against the blood condition as proof that Abbie died considerably earlier. The condition of her blood at 11:40 or so means nothing. It would have been coagulated whether she was killed at 9:30, 10:00, 10:30 or 11:00.

Masterton is wrong as anyone who twists the facts to support an a priori conclusion. While a small cut will be quickly congealed, there is a limited almount of vitamin K in the liver. It can only handle small wounds. Surely you all realize this? If you are unfortunate to get a serious cut or wound you would know that bleeding does not stop by itself. You can just refer to Ron and Nicole, as Masterton keeps hinting at in his book.

His book seems to have been written to deny the historical truth about Abby in order to deny the Medical Examiner's report that Nicole and Ron were killed after 11pm. See the references sprinkled in Masterton's book.

Abby's blood was not only congealed (not liquid) it was also blackened (or oxidized). Her body was noticeably cooler. Signs that she had been dead for an hour or more. The policeman who said this was a Civil War veteran, as I remember it.

Abby could not have returned after Andy's death as the alarm went out and people congregated. Painter Sawyer was guarding the door. If Abby was alive after 11am she would not have been killed as the murderer had gone by then. According to his lack of presence, not just Ellan Eagan.

The examination of the stomach contents put Abby's death about 90 minutes before Andy's death. Does anyone else deny this fact? Why?

Kat @ Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:54 pm wrote:He also shows how digestion can be idiosyncratic, doesn't he?
I have always believed that digestion, even now, is hard to use as a determinant of [edit here- add:] Time of Death.

Yes, he does. I'm going to take a closer look at his theory on that.

I just received "Lizzie Didn't Do It" for christmas and just began reading it.
I am enjoying it so farafter 3 chapters.

Fritz, I am very sorry for the loss of your father :(

William Masteron's book is one of my favorites and I'm very sorry to learn that we have lost such a valuable contributor to our Lizzie community.

Professor Masterton wrote that "the time lapse between the murders, taken as an article of faith for a century, is just another facet of the Borden legend that has no basis in fact." (Lizzie Didn't Do It, p.211).

The following is a fairly recent excerpt from the magazine The Forensic Examiner relating to advances in estimating time of death in the Borden Case which seems to support this claim.

“The determinations of time of death in the Lizzie Borden case were merely guesswork. Experts at the time estimated that Abby died between 1 - 2 hours prior to Andrew. This conclusion was based on three facts: 1) Abby’s blood was coagulated and Andrew’s was not; 2) Abby’s body felt cooler to the touch than Andrew’s; 3) Abby’s stomach had a great deal of undigested food, while the food in Andrew’s stomach was well digested.
Today, with modern forensic technology, the evidence presented would not determine that Abby died 1 – 2 hours before Andrew. First, the fact that Andrew’s blood was not coagulated is unusual, but not unheard of. When a person dies suddenly and violently, the blood becomes uncoagulable shortly after death. Secondly, pathologists today would not act only on the use of touch to determine body temperature. An internal thermometer would be used to take measurements over a period of time. Also, research has found that the body temperature of the deceased drops very little in the first few hours after death. Thus, the varied body temperatures measured by touch, would have very little meaning. And finally, people digest food a different rates, so the amount of food found in the victims’ stomachs does not shed light on the time of their deaths.” (Forensic Examiner, Winter 2005, p. 54)

Yay Diana! Another voice of *reason.*
Or another Reasonable Voice?
Thanks for the info.

Thank you, Diana, excellent post.

As I stated in my previous post I have little faith in the blood evidence in determining the time of death.

The digestive process can be influenced by the health of the individuals as well. Abbie may have been far more sick than Andrew, hence her visit to Dr. Bowen. We also don't know whether she may have eaten anything after breakfast.

There is a review of Prof. Masterton's book by Marilyn Bardsley as well as a summary of the case in the Court TV Crime Library. I have not read beyond the first page covering her review yet so I can't vouch for its accuracy.

http://tinyurl.com/yhogjn

Prof. Masterton's book has to be read with an open mind.

Abby was alive around the time that Uncle John then Andy left, as I remember it. Lizzie says she was there around 9:15, so too Bridget. Were they both lying? (As I remember it.)
Therefore the time of death of Abby was "1 to 2 hours" before Andy.

That quote from the Forensic Examiner isn't worth much simply because they were not there at the time. You can look that up; its an opinion, not a fact testified to in court. IMO