Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I was re-reading Eugene's article in the last Hatchet issue where he tells the story of his Fall River trip. He mentioned finding and perusing a book on *Lizzie and Astrology* which he picked up in the archive area at the FRHS, where we paused and gathered to cool off and actually get to know each other.
I wondered what he read there, what book was it, and if he thought the analysis seemed consistent with what he may have known.

Also, I was reading an item in the newspaper called "Lizzie's Fate," from Fall River Daily Herald, 1-23-93, where an astrologer points out- supposedly unknowing of whose chart they were reading-:
"You see the outer woman has to be superior to the inner one. She is compelled to be better than she is. This makes another struggle."

I wondered what people thought about this.

Kat @ Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:59 am wrote:.

Also, I was reading an item in the newspaper called "Lizzie's Fate," from Fall River Daily Herald, 1-23-93, where an astrologer points out- supposedly unknowing of whose chart they were reading-:
"You see the outer woman has to be superior to the inner one. She is compelled to be better than she is. This makes another struggle."

I wondered what people thought about this.

All I can think of is the astrologer is saying that Lizzie had a dark side and there were possibly thoughts going through her head that perhaps she felt some measure of guilt about. Such as killing Abby. So, on the outside she put on this, "look at me I go to church etc" so I can't really be so bad.

The thing is so many of us also, struggle with the whole idea of trying to be better than we might think we are. Doubt about are own self worth is fairly common. And many people have bad thoughts, a dark side etc.

You see the outer woman has to be superior to the inner one. She is compelled to be better than she is. This makes another struggle

I see this as indication that Lizzie did what she did in the community, dressed as she did and tried to be seen as a 'lady' even though she knew/felt that she was a fraud. Maybe she did have rude, evil and unkind thoughts and recognized that she wasn't suppossed to. People didn't have a Dr. Phil telling them it was OK to feel sexual desire, envy, anger, etc in those days.. Yet they must have felt them.

However.. I think we all feel and do this to an extent. We all keep secrets. We all silently want to tell someone off, slap them or sleep with the milkman.... We may not do it-- but we can talk about it-- relieving it somewhat. We, and I think it still applies more to women, smile, act gracious and forgiving and wear our public hats in society.

We live in a society obsessed with perfection. The big house, the nice car the slim waist... It really never has changed!

I think it is a struggle we all face.

Woman most definitely would not have been told it was ok to feel sexual desire back then. Women were not supposed to derive any pleasure from the sexual act. I think this made for alot of frustration on the woman's part. She was supposed to supress something that is a natural part of her.

She is compelled to be better than she is, in my opinion, fits Lizzie perfectly. I think she was an outspoken, bad tempered, selfish woman who could really only relate to the servants because she felt superior to them. From all accounts I've read she would speak up for herself and not hold anything back if she thought she wasn't getting her fair share or a fair deal. But it seems what she considered her fair share was far more than just fair. I think she belonged to the church, and did all of those good deeds for charitable organizations, because society compelled woman to behave in this manner back then. Unmarried women were especially supposed to devote their lives to charity and the church if they couldn't devote it to a husband. I don't think Lizzie did these things because she wanted to, I think it was because she was driven to. How long did it take her to finally start joining these organizations? I think she went in kicking and screaming, and probably because it was the one of the only avenues left to her for social interaction. So she was being compelled to act in a way which went against her personality.

When Lizzie wrote out her funeral instructions, she wanted the 1st and 4th verse of My Ain Countree sung. I think the 4th verse is very telling given was religious to the extent of believing in God and a hereafter at the very least. Also, if one believes her guilty and considers her religious bent, the verse seems appropriate to a woman who has committed a heinous crime but believes in her heart God will forgive her. The fourth verse, as taken from the Lizzie Borden Quarterly, Vol. Vii, #1, January 2000, page 23:

“My sins hae been mony, an’ my sorrows hae been sair;
But there they’ll never vex me, nor be remembered mair;
For his bluid has made me white, ain’ His han’ shall dry my e’e,
When he brings me hame at last to my ain countrie.”

My own loose translation:

“My sins have been many.” (murder, shoplifting, lying) and ” my sorrows” (regrets, depression).

But “there” (heaven) they’ll never vex me, nor be remembered (my anquish, depression, regret will be relieved or go away).

For “his bluid” (the blood of Jesus who died so our sins could be forgiven) “has made me white” (cleansed me of my sins, made me pure again)”

And his hand shall dry my eye (again, relieving my sorrow, giving me comfort)
When he brings me home at last to my ain country (when I join him in heaven).

And she wrote her instructions March 31 – 1919. She must have had many, many years of sorrow and regret. There are several references in many newspapers written over the years of Lizzie’s life that reference her nervousness, depression, sadness. I can almost feel how much those words meant to her. The poem was written by Mary L. Demarest in 1861.

I agree that Lizzie does seem to be acknowledging some guilt in her choice of My Ain Countrie to be read at her funeral. That's also why I don't think everything she did as far as church, animals, kids etc was all an act.

Lizzie is not a clear cut murderer the way Dahmer, Bundy or Gacy were. They enjoyed killing. Lizzie is a bit tougher to look at. On the one hand you look at how brutally Abby was killed. I think it's safe to say by about the fifth blow Abby was dead. And yet fourteen more blows followed. I think it was Dr. Bowen who described Abby as a defenseless old woman. And that's what she was. There was a lot of hate that went into killing Abby and of course killing Andrew was horrible too. So, you have in Lizzie this raging hate and who knows what else and at the same time she does seem to feel guilt. Not something Tim McVeigh ever felt.

Btw, I also agree that some of Lizzie's ways may have been do to how frustrating life was in 1892. Lizzie must have to a degree felt trapped in a life she didn't want.

Those are interesting opinions. I thought too like some, that it meant Lizzie was actually going against her own nature in order to appear better than she was.
I could see that playing that role one's whole life could be very wearisome.
I also agree that it might seem a broad enough statement to be made by an astrologer who is *fishing.*
But a pretty good observation of a woman's human nature at the time, as well.

I was actually wondering about the circumstances Lizzie was born into.
If she was born in the south, say, would her tragic character have dominated so much? How much does *place of birth* have to do with *fate*? Would Lizzie have lived an eventful life anywhere she was born?

Say she was born close by Fall River- but at the farm and stayed out of town. Would she still have been influenced in some way to be drawn to The Hill and taking a place in society? She just may have never had what it takes to be a Society lady, no matter where when or with how much money she was born?

Kat,

It is so interesting that you bring that up ! Most of the lecture we had in one of my classes centered on theories that a person's geographic location contributes to their probability of commiting a crime.There are different theories which we discussed that allegedly prove that where a person is from, their environment, and the social conditions all can contribute to a person's probability of commiting crime and what type of crime they are more likely to commit. There were many theories that may or may not have applied to Lizzie but they are interesting just the same. This one doesn't deal with location but I found it most interesting, and I thought it might apply to Lizzie in some way. These are from my notes of today.

"Anomie: Merton differed somewhat by using the term to mean a disjunction between socially approved means and goals set by society. Society sets goals for everyone to achieve, but doesn't provide everyone the means to achieve them.

(For example
Socially accepted goals: Status, Happiness, Prosperity
Means to achieve: good education, hard work, good values, saving money)

Goals and Means Disjuncture:

Five Situations Defined by Robert King Merton

Conformity - ( Most common) Individuals accept the goals set by society, and accept that they must attain them by socially accepted means.

Innovation - Individuals accept the goals of society, but attain them in socially unaccepted ways.

Ritualism- The individual gives no value to the goals of society, but they are still willing to accept the means by which they are attained. ( For example working hard, getting a good education, and practicing good values but placing no value on status, prosperity, or wealth.)

Retreatisim - ( Least common)- Individuals do not accept either the goals or the socially accepted means for achieving them.

Rebellion - Individuals rebel against societies goals. They set down their own goals, and their own means of attaining them. ( For example terrorists.)

I think Lizzie is one we could file under Innovation? I think one theory that could also apply to Lizzie is the Relative Deprivation Theory. My notes didn't really explain it in the way I wanted so I found two sites that were easy to understand and didn't require reading three or four paragraphs to get a basic idea.

http://changingminds.org/explanations/t ... vation.htm



RELATIVE DEPRIVATION THEORY –

5 Preconditions to experience "relative deprivation":

1. Want an object "X"

2. Feel entitled to "X"

3. Perceive someone else to possess "X"

4. Think it feasible to obtain "X"

5. Refuse personal responsibility for not having "X".

http://gaius.cbpp.uaa.alaska.edu/afflj/ ... ATION.html

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... ridget.htm

this is a particularly interesting thread on the subject from 2003.

i found the 1860 ephemeris and will look at the aspects again. i can't even remember most of it now.

the book at the FRHS was something like "murder and astrology" and had lizzie among several. it gave her a virgo ascendant, which is interesting (not unusual to have a parent's sun sign on one's ascendant) -- but still it must be based on a guess.

i would either do a "solar" one or a "natural" one. later.

but that thread in the archives has some intelligent stuff in it, pre-dating many of the current posters.


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Eugene, I don't know if this is the book you are referring to:

It is described in the LB library bibliography by Stefani:

"Watters, Barbara H. "Was Lizzie Borden Guilty?" The Astrological Looks at Murder. Washington, D.C.: Valhalla Paperbacks, 1969. 61-90.
Watters examines Lizzie's natal astrological chart and shows how the stars predicted her guilt."

We have that book, but the book Eugene had in his hands didn't look like that.

Thanks for all the info, Missy! It was something I always wondered- how important the place is to the crime.

Apparently Lizzie had some of the attributes of "Innovation" but she also had the real experience of doing church work, contributing to her local social needs, becoming involved in charitable endeavors. I wonder if the profile or definitions you provided can be applied to the 1890's or if they are based on more modern interpretations?

Kat @ Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:27 pm wrote:We have that book, but the book Eugene had in his hands didn't look like that.

Thanks for all the info, Missy! It was something I always wondered- how important the place is to the crime.

Apparently Lizzie had some of the attributes of "Innovation" but she also had the real experience of doing church work, contributing to her local social needs, becoming involved in charitable endeavors. I wonder if the profile or definitions you provided can be applied to the 1890's or if they are based on more modern interpretations?

Well I don't know how "modern" they can be considered. The original theory of anomie which Robert King Merton built on was from a book called The Devision of Labor in Society published by Emile Durkheim in 1893. Emile Durkheim lived from 1858 to 1917. Robert King Merton was born in 1910 and died in 2003.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_K._Merton

Durkheim defined the term anomie as a condition where social and/or moral norms are confused, unclear, or simply not present. Durkheim felt that this lack of norms--or preaccepted limits on behavior in a society--led to deviant behavior.

Anomie = Lack of Regulation / Breakdown of Norms

Industrialization in particular, according to Durkheim, tends to disolve restraints on the passions of humans. Where traditional societies--primarily through religion--successfully taught people to control their desires and goals, modern industrial societies separate people and weaken social bonds as a result of increased complexity and the division of labor. This is especially evident in modern society, where we are further separated and divided by computer technology, the internet, increasing beaurocracy, and specialization in the workplace. Perhaps more than ever before, members of Western society are exposed to the risk of anomie.

http://durkheim.itgo.com/anomie.html

Merton’s final seminal work was in the form of a theoretical piece, "Social Structure and Anomie," published in the American Sociological Review (1938). In it, he sought an explanation for deviant behavior through an explication and refinement of Durkheim’s conception of anomie.


http://www.bolender.com/Dr.%20Ron/SOC40 ... t_king.htm

i'm not sure of the book title. i jotted down notes on a small piece of paper, but i can't find the paper. i think the book was a small paperback -- i know it was not exclusively about lizzie, i had to find her in the index. i knew what i was looking for -- a visual natal chart. and there was one -- a virgo ascendant, sun in 11th house. (this transpired within two minutes.)

kat, do you have visual memory of this? i didn't know whether anyone saw me with the book.

i had a thought since you started this thread -- that it is possible that somewhere, perhaps in the robinson papers -- there is a note stating lizzie's time of birth. it's something lizzie might have well known through emma, who might have well known. anyway, it's not unreasonable that this info might exist.

____________________

but regardless of that -- there are some planetary aspects on lizzie's birthday that no doubt apply. i found a description of one of them (i'll source it at the bottom) that is strong because it is an exact aspect, two planets in the same place. it is mercury conjunction saturn in leo. this is not written about lizzie but about the aspect itself, but i laughed reading it, because it is so apropos, it actually sums up the adverse effect she had on some people the day of the murders and it even gives credence to the idea that she could have done this all by herself:

"A certain power and authority, amounting almost to pompousness, attaches to your manner of speech. You don't merely say things, you state them; and this has its effect on your listeners, who will have to have strong wills not to fall in line with your subtle reasoning. You can outguess most people, and, being suspicious, are rarely fooled. You have it in you to bamboozle the world. Nobody is ever going to sell you any gold bricks or phony oil stock."*

*Heaven Knows What, by Grant Lewi.

I saw you paging through a dark hard-bound book over by the far left wall in the room with the table in it. Someone was speaking and you glanced up, responded, and bent back over the book.
I sent you a scan of the Watters section on Lizzie way back when, I believe- that's a reason I didn't think it was Watters.
Watters is good tho.

Thank you for the attempts to dredge up the memory and the info. I sort of put you on the spot, I fear. It all came about because I had just re-read your Fall River trip story in the Hatchet. It never gets old. It's a good story!

It seems to me that Emma is Retreatism, but I would regard Lizzie as a Rebel since her primary social sphere was familial. That's where the problem lay.

In the article I first quoted from, the astrologer asked if the subject was related to the inquirer, because there were things she read which concerned her.
Then:
"I see a great deal of more trouble in this life- trouble in the home- trouble everywhere. This woman is a very peculiar person- not like other women. She is true, loyal to those she is fond of, absolutely relentless to those she disliked and distrusts. Her life seems to have been ___ (blasted?) like the buds on the tree which the frost has seared. All the storms and troubles which have swirled about her since she was 15 years old seem to have united to destroy her in 1892. It has been a terrible year to her."

--This is still a partial analysis. I think the reference to 15 years old is significant somehow. I recall that Lizzie considered herself a (very) young girl around age 15- it was when she was talking about when she thought Andrew had carved or made or found that club which was under Andrew's bed - the club which scared Alice so much the day of the funeral.
Are there any other references to Lizzie at 15? Was this some turning point for her?

Well, I guess to answer my own question, I see by my timeline that bewtween 1872 and 1877, which would encompass 1875 (the year Lizzie was 15), we find:

1872 Andrew bought and they moved to #92 Second Street
1874 Andrew had running water installed, house and barn
1875 Lizzie was in high school
1875 Morse visits for a year.

Bingo! Maybe that is the year that Lizzie stopped developing socially and psychologically? We have posited that Lizzie stalled in her maturation sometime around 16.

As for 1877:
Morse visited again
and Rev Buck's wife died
Lizzie'd be 17.

Kat @ Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:42 pm wrote: 1875 Morse visits for a year.

Bingo! Maybe that is the year that Lizzie stopped developing socially and psychologically? We have posited that Lizzie stalled in her maturation sometime around 16.

Well if you believe that Morse may have been having a sexually incestuous relationship with Lizzie, and he spent a year under their roof, this could explain a lot. It gave Morse an entire year with young Lizzie.

well, i must guess that lizzie's natural sexual maturation exceeded her "means" somehow. so what happened to lizzie sexually as a teenager? something did, as it does to all. what was around for the sexual awakening of lizzie borden? actually, i'm not kidding. men from the farm, sleeping over? men who worked in the yards in the neighborhood? okay, maybe it was not a man at all-- but a woman. i've been thinking about how to put this question in a way that can stimulate thought (i can use astrology to pose all sorts of things) -- but what do you think when you think of it this way? Was lizzie a virgin at 32 at the time of the murders -- or, if not a virgin, then what kind of scenario would have transpired? or if she was a virgin at 32 -- then what effect would that have? this must have been an essential fact in her life. is it possible for anyone to relate to this?

I don't know that Morse liked girls- or maybe he had some perversion which Lizzie was exposed to? But an associate of his might have been hanging around with him at the Borden home? It needn't be Morse- but it might include some friend of his? If it was Morse, wouldn't Emma have known of it and she wouldn't call him her *dear uncle*? He very well might be a peripheral character in Lizzie's maturation stumbling block.

More on Lizzie's character, as read by the astrologist:

"In the summer, July I should say, there was a crisis in her career- some sort of catastrophe which seems to be the misery climax of her life. Nothing else will ever befall her, but the influence of that will last as long as she lives. It does not, however, affect her as it would an ordinary woman, though she suffers much more than anyone knows. You see, the outer woman has to be superior to the inner one. She is compelled to seem beter than she is. This makes another struggle.

I told you before that she is a very peculiar person. I cannot be more explicit. No, her natue cannot be called cruel, and she would be incapable of treating anyone with cruelty. She might witness the infliction of pain without flinching outwardly, for she has an indomitable will, but her very soul would quail with horror and pity all the time. Her peculiararities are due to heredity. She has as ancestor, several generations back, who committed a crime and was mentally unsound. This woman is not insane, but her eyes and head are much affected, and she is at this time verging upon a condition of melancholia. Her one wish is to destroy herself. I would not advise and insurance company to take any risks on her life."

There's a little bit left. It sounds so far like the chart reader knows who Lizzie is, doesn't it? This is dated Jan. 23, 1893.

Quality pic, Audrey!

Do you guys want the rest of this article? There's more.

Well it's Kat & John again so I feel better now.
There was a time when I didn't like Kat - she came into my igloo and started a propane heater, but we got over that. Then there was the time I was shooting pool for the world's championship and she coughed and dropped her lunch tray on my last shot, but we got over that. Then she visited me in jail and said I tickled her and they sent me to the looney bin, but we got over that. Then she wanted me to test prussic acid (said it was harmless) and gave me this foaming drink, but we got over that. Then she smiled at me, and I at her, and we never got over that.

Kat @ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:53 pm wrote:Do you guys want the rest of this article? There's more.

Yes, please, I would like the rest of the article. Its quite an interesting take on Lizzie.

kat:

yes, please.

___________________

Here is something else astrological. this is from an astrology forum. they are talking about the value of a horoscope for a place at a certain time -- and someone brings up the borden case. now, his facts are not quite right (re 12 noon). however, i looked at it myself to see what time that morning the malefic entered the 4th house. it works out to be exactly 9:30 am. then at noon, the malefic leaves the 4th house.

"Yet if you look at the chart for the time of the murders, (Aug 4, 1892, 12 noon (TZ 5+) 41N42 / 71W09), and apply the ancient and ignored techniques, you immediately get struck by something that puts these modern analysis in question. Scorpio rules the 1st house (the murderer), and Mars is retrograde on the cusp of the 4th. The 4th house rules the Borden house itself and the cusp is int's front door. By ancient techniques, a planet on the 4th cusp represents someone at the door and if that planet is retrograde, someone holding back from entering. So at the time of the murder, you have an unknown party outside the front door, reluctant about entering. So, never in the case has anyone dealt with an unknown party lurking outside the door, while the murders were being done. "

this atrologer obviously doesn't know that much about the case-- but he has a valid point. there are other interpretations. the malefic planet (mars) is at the front door at noon, but moves backward away from it--not into it.

That's fascinating Eugene! Thanks!
Wait'll you read this!

And you two ask so prettily- like Dickens' character "Please, sir- may I have some more?" (I love that line...we are always saying that in a British accent in my family).
I'm sorry not to get it finished sooner- but the type is very hard to read at this point!

OK:

"SUDDEN DEATH PREDICTED
'Do you mean that she is not likely to live long?'

It was necessary to reiterate the statement that that writer is not in any way connected with the subject of these disclosures before the astrologist would explain more fully. Then with evident reluctance she said: 'This woman must die suddenly- a violent death. It will be the combination of all the woe of her life- a life that is one of the saddest I ever read. I see a prison. And there she will suffer so much that if there is any one who cares for her, it would be a proof of regard to give her the means she craves to end the strain. She is there for some one else. She could go out if she would speak, but she does not- she cannot, although she is always conscious that a few words would free her. She suffers silently for another. In 1897 that other will die, and just before that every cloud clears from the horoscope; but it will be too late; she will have gone. It was written from the first that she must die of steel and by her own hand. This is the only crime of her life, but I see her accused of many. Perhaps she consented to some of them, but her hand is only lifted against herself- to end a blasted life.'
The astrologist was asked to make a written report of this, but flatly declined to do so. She strongly urged the writer not to tell the woman what she had said."

--This is very sad!

Thanks, Kat. Interesting stuff between your and Eugene's post. When this woman says that Lizzie 'must die a sudden death', do you think it means to make amends for participation in the death of her parents or just that it is written in the stars for her to do? It would be something to find out all of Lizzie's acquaintances who passed away in 1897, could there be something to it after all?

It's got me wondering if Lizzie committed suicide after all?
And the "die of steel and by her own hand" could be that, and it was covered up. She did die sort of all of a sudden, and so young.
Or it could be that she went into her gall bladder surgery on her own decision- that is steel and cutting her and did lead to her death.
I just don't see tho how someone can predict the future like that?
But yes to check who died in 1897 would be interesting, I agree. If the astrologer hadn't specified that, I would have tended to think Lizzie suffered for Emma.

if lizzie did try to buy poison -- the one way it makes sense is if she was planning suicide.

Can the astrologer be presuming/predicting a *spiritual death* in 1897? It doesn't need to be literal, does it?
As in the possibility that Lizzie, the girl we know as Miss Borden, could have figuratively died in 1897 and not ever *herself* again after that?

I've read in a few places that the prussic acid was more likely to be used for suicide if the crime failed in some way.
But I don't know...
I can see arguments for and against the chance that Lizzie might have contemplated that choice.

I don't know a thing about astrology but ran across this web site. It has our Lizbeth being born at 9:46am. Don't know where they got that. Click on her photo for her chart. It's not quite half way down the page.

http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/celebrites/ ... ne_4_4.htm

That is Too Weird, Harry! I thought they didn't have those records anywhere as to her time of birth. I wonder if someone is yanking their chain with fake info?
Someone has got to inquire!
Hey Eugene?.....

the chart harry refers to is exactly the one i saw in the book at the FRHS.

they have a birth time of 9:46 AM, Fall River, MA, 7-19-1860. i'm going to try to paste in the image of the chart.

i don't know where this info comes from. it's rather specific. it is not a 12 noon chart or anything like that. this site even acknowledges those for whom there is no known birth time. they don't show source though. but it's clear enough that some sort of source has been perpetuated. this is something to look for.

Oh goody!

Hey- I can't open the picture. I couldn't at Harry's link either.
I guess I will try in my most updated browser- Safari.
Then, if you don't mind, I'll gather the image and post it again. (Figuring if I can't see it, a lot of others can't either).
Thanks a bunch!!
(Is there a place to contact them at to ask for source?)

Here it is. It's beautiful!
I didn't see ANY of that explanatory stuff there on Explorer. It's a COOL link Harry!

If you start at home base of that site it says you can access 27,181 charts of celebrities. Try here:

http://astrotheme.fr/en/

It's actually a French site. And for you Auds and those who parlez-vous Français:

http://astrotheme.fr/

You have to join their site to see the photos of the celebrities.

as harry says, the site has a french origin. there is a feature that is supposed to translate it to english -- the text part that does analysis of the chart -- but i can't get it to work. what little i can make out from the french is not worth much. i thought about asking audrey to translate the stuff, but it's a lot.

i haven't found a clue as to source for the birth time.

for those who are interested, you can input your own birth data and it will draw a chart. as for the accuracy of it -- i tested it myself with my own birth data -- and it is accurate (i KNOW mine).

i've got to go to my mothers in alabama tomorrow, so i don't have much time to spend on it now -- though i printed it, and i might see what i can make of it tomorrow night or friday.

first of all -- is there anyone here with any knowledge of astrology? i studied to be one at one time, but i quit, and it was a long time ago.

i'll say what i do notice, though. giving the chart the benefit of the doubt -- the first thing is the virgo ascendant. that would not surprise, since her father was a virgo. i've seen this again and again -- something astrological about a parent will be a key point in a child's chart. for ex., my sister and i both have cancer rising, and our father is cancer.

the next thing to notice is the number of planets in the 11th house, including the sun (which is right on the cusp). this is the area of goals, aspirations, and friends in the wide world. sun in 11th is the humanitarian and the individualist. it looks like much good fortune. i don't see murder. but mars is in the 4th, which is the home.

i don't see how we would not know her birth time if it is available -- so this is one thing that needs to be answered.

neptune (deception) is heavily aspected, and it would be something she has little control over. (BTW, this is true regardless of her birth time.)

i do hope someone with some knowledge of astrology can comment on this. there was one such person once, who is no longer on the board, but perhaps someone can respond to this.

Gosh thanks you guys. I find this really interesting, especially at the level of competentcy which you give it, Eugene.
Stef used to be able to decipher this stuff, years and years ago- before she became a Doctorate.

I have it on my list to ask Len and/or MM if the time of birth of Lizzie is known. I would think they could say Yea or Nay at least.

Have a nice Holiday!

Kat @ Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:39 am wrote:Gosh thanks you guys. I find this really interesting, especially at the level of competentcy which you give it, Eugene.
Stef used to be able to decipher this stuff, years and years ago- before she became a Doctorate.

I have it on my list to ask Len and/or MM if the time of birth of Lizzie is known. I would think they could say Yea or Nay at least.

Have a nice Holiday!

I asked Len Rebello about whether Lizzie's time of birth was known and he said not to his knowledge.
I asked, after all his investigation of deeds and vital records, what he thought would be the best place to find such information.
He said, if it exists, time of birth might be recorded in the hospital records. But then he said there wasn't a hospital there in Fall River in 1860. We talked about Lizzie being born at home, on Ferry Street, and whether Sarah would have been attended by a doctor or not. We don't know even know that. He said the doctor (if there had been one) could take down time of birth, but they didn't always. And they also did not rush right down and register the birth. And often a name had not been picked out yet when the birth Was registered so the record might just say "Male" or "Female." When that happens, it doesn't necessarily mean illegitimate- which some people think when they see no name.

So it sounds like someone could possibly find the name of the doctor who was at her birth and check his records, if they exist. He thought it was a slim chance tho- but not impossible.

(I am recreating a conversation. Any error as to my understanding of the matter is mine alone.)

I think someone should write the webmaster and ask their source. Someone who knows what they are talking about, astrology-wise.

Anyone with suggestions are welcome to contribute, too!

Hmmm i think i heard an interview or should 'read' an interview online at astrology junction
about that book or it was a review of the book, either way i havent even read it. Idk where 2 find it now. Do any of you know?

does this book have an amazon page i can see it again